 Poster: A snowHead
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| peura wrote: |
| I've also seen tractors with chains or studs. |
Well I know lots of rural Swiss use thei tractor to go to the supermarket but TBH it would be a bit of a PITA to use one to drive from Zurich to the 3V 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Snow chains it is, mind you might be difficult to find them for my 44" tyres! Maybe time to get the standard one out the garage
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surfstar, 44" Tyres? You sure? I'd ask where JCB get theirs from.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I've seen many suggestion for using narrower tyres on snow. Of course it is quite possible that you won't need to use the snow chains but it would be annoying to find out that you need them if you're somewhere that doesn't sell them. I'd suggest trying to hire some, or getting some that you can return if unused.
edited for clarity.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Thu 18-10-07 7:05; edited 3 times in total
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Does surfstar drive a Monster Truck?
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peura, You can rent chains, but not tyres. To run narrower snow tyres, normally means running narrower rims too. Narrow tyres are good if the snow is shallow enough for the tyres to cut down to the hard surface below, if the snow is very deep, they will keep cutting down until the car grounds out and your stuck. Wide snow tyres good for very deep snow so that they float on the surface, but don't offer enough surface load to cut into shallow snow over tarmac. So narrow tyres for snowy roads and Fat ones if you want to drive in Iceland.
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 Only my first sentence was meant to refer to the tires, the rest was about the snow chains. I've edited it now to clarify. I'm sure I had read somewhere about renting winter tyres but I'm not sure how or in which country. I'm not sure that I'd want to fit tyres of unknown history to my car though, and I guess there might be problems in finding very large sizes.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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It is possible to rent cars with winter tyres and snow chains but I've never heard of anyone just renting winter tyres. If you rent a car and are travelling to a ski resort make sure beforehand that it has winter tyres. As an example, rental cars in Salzburg during the winter will almost certainly have winter tyres but this in Munich this is less likely.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Tyre rental has been mentioned on here before. Somewhere in France IIRC, they measure the tread depth and record mileage when you fit them then again when you return. The price is based on mileage & wear.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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cookie monster, I read what you posted before you edited it, I pretty much agreed with it apart from the bit about a 4x4 without chain vs. a 2wd with chains on snowy/icy tarmac. I still stand by the 2wd with chains getting further. Why chains aren't used in Iceland is exactly for the reason I stated earlier, on bottomless snow you want floatation, not cutting & digging from the tyres or you'll soon be buried up to the axlesand going nowhere.
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If you look at all the tyre manufacturers sites you will see that they all recomend changing to winter tyres when the average daily temperature falls below +7 C. Something to do with the rubber compounds and additives. It means really that most people in the UK should have a set but it seems we are to tight to do that.
I admit to being tight myself and have never had winter treads but have had four wheel drive cars since I first started driving my own car to Austria in 1990. All wheel drive does make a difference. I should really use winter tyres purely for the better braking characteristics. That is where they win, especially on ice, according to the experts. I bought chains for both vehicles but have never used them, mainly because they keep the main roads pretty clear in Europe and, certainly in Austria, they grit the side roads.
As an aside, I was stopped at the bottom of the Paznauntal in a police roadblock in the early nineties where they were making drivers put on chains even with winter treads. He looked at my (normal) tyres, saw the car was 4 wheel drive (Sierra 4x4) and waved me on.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Something also to point out. Eng_ch is absolutely correct. If you don't have snow tyres in CH and have an accident in wintery conditions (and the other driver does have them) it's your fault. And I understand that this extends to "without due care and attention charges" all which could turn out to be very, very uncomfortable.
So, now we have all agreed that we need to have snow tyres in Switzerland you should check out the TCS website. Every year they test various brands of snow tyre for braking distances, etc. Some are better than others. Some are practically useless.
Lizzard, your M+S tyres, unless marked as such, are not snow tyres. Again, the TCS had a big report this year on how dangerous it was to assume that M+S tyres would be any use at all in snow and ice. They're not.
Both reports worth a read.
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Poster: A snowHead
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David Murdoch, that's extremely odd, because they've been excellent in all kinds of extreme conditions for the past eight years.
Unfortunately the silly bint who had the thing before me put funny sized wheels on it and I find it very difficult to get tyres for it at all, so I have to take what there is.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Lizzard, Spend some time on Ebay and pick up a standard set of rims that you can mount winter tyres on and keep the others for summer, you know it makes sense.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Lizzard, well it's not from me by the TCS analysis and tests. They're the Swiss AA equivalent and the results were quite disturbing. That's why my snow tyres are going on next year and I have nice new hangers for my M+S ones to sit on over the winter.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Dypcdriver, I consider my(tight)self suitably chastized! I shall seriously consider the winter treads and (probably narrower) wheels. BTW, I always thought M & S stood for mud and snow! I take the point, though, that they are not specialist winter tyres. It is in the braking that these definitly have the edge. There is some interesting stuff on the manufacturers sites, Michelin in particular.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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elj221c, It does stand for mud and snow I believe. Just doesn't seem to work...
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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.... and winter tyres have to have at least 4mm of tread (if less than 4mm, they are categorised as summer tyres).
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Winter tyres and snow tyres aren't the same thing. Snow tyres have a softer compound and tread pattern just for snow. Great if you never leave the alpine village in winter but pretty useless for anything else (e.g. winter motorway driving). In Austria you can get away with using M&S tyres if there's at least 4mm of tread left but their performance (traction, braking, etc) won't match winter tyres although they are better than summer tyres.
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| David Murdoch wrote: |
| elj221c, It does stand for mud and snow I believe. Just doesn't seem to work... |
M + S are neither Mud tyres or Snow tyres, they're just standard road tyres that can handle a little bit of the rough stuff away from Tarmac. Has some Goodyear Wranglers with an M + S rating on a Discovery, not bad on snowy tarmac, but absolutely useless in Mud, the treadblocks were just way too small and just clogged into 4 large muddy doughnuts.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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elj221c, I didn't really mean it quite that way
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I consider my(tight)self suitably chastized!
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more as an eye opener to the fact that running on winter tyres doesen't cost any more, it is just safer, but I'm glad you have seen the light
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It's my understanding that snowtyres are not just a softer rubber compound but the rubber has a much lower hardning temp i.e. at sub zero temps the rubber remains soft allowing for more traction.
Lots of all season tyres have the same tread pattern as winter tyres but use a std rubber compound so at low temps the rubber hardens giving less grip.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I have nokian M + S tyres on a 4 X 4 passat I do carry chains but have not needed them in 3 seasons. The tyres are great in the snow and on dry tarmac, strangely they seem to wear better than normal tyres the only thing is that they are slightly noisier, but not significantly. I would be happy to run them winter and summer but I do swap them in the spring.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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The other thing to remember is that winter tyres don't perform at their best over 7 deg C so if you get a warm day in the winter, just watch your braking distances in the wet
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You know it makes sense.
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DB, I think what you call snow tyres are called (some manufacturers) "nordic winter tyres" whilst those you call winter tyres they seem to call "central europe winter tyres". I think their terms explain the differences quite well without confusion with M+S tyres.
Aren't all winter tyres marked M+S? Mine are, so I assumed most are. I believe the M+S just means the tread has larger gaps between the tread blocks than otherwise. It does not mean the tyre works well in the snow. I'd thought that the snowflake + mountain symbol was the one to look for in a winter tyres as it means that the tyre has been tested in snow and met the standards required (http://www.canadiandriver.com/winter/tires/snow_tires.htm).
O/T but Spyderman, sometimes I think it is the just type of mud. I've seen a tractors tyres become slick when clogged with mud whilst trying to rescue some adventurous tourists in a 4x4 on a beach near us  .
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| peura wrote: |
| DB, I think what you call snow tyres are called (some manufacturers) "nordic winter tyres" whilst those you call winter tyres they seem to call "central europe winter tyres". I think their terms explain the differences quite well without confusion with M+S tyres. |
Never heard the terms "nordic winter tyres" or "central europe winter tyres" before, are they American or Canadian terms?
So a tyre not wholly suitable for snow is marked "M&S" (for Mud and Snow) as is a tyre suitable for snow and winter conditions. They can be called winter, snow, or nordic / central europe winter tyres - no it's not confusing at all
NZ appears to call them "snow tyres" too.
http://www.ltsa.govt.nz/vehicles/safety-features/snow-tyres-qa.html
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Mon 29-10-07 21:53; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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DB, The only thing I can think of is that most Nordic Winter tyres allow for the fitment of Studs, which is banned in UK. M + S tends to mean All Season All Terrain Tyres.
Winter and Snow tyres have softer compounds which generate heat, primarily through Siping of the tread blocks, which is the fine cut lines in the tread blocks which allow the blocks to squirm, thereby generating heat to keep the tread pliable. Whereas Summer tyres it's all about dissipating heat build up to prevent delamination.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Spyderman, When did they ban studs in the UK?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Spyderman wrote: |
DB, The only thing I can think of is that most Nordic Winter tyres allow for the fitment of Studs, which is banned in UK. M + S tends to mean All Season All Terrain Tyres.
Winter and Snow tyres have softer compounds which generate heat, primarily through Siping of the tread blocks, which is the fine cut lines in the tread blocks which allow the blocks to squirm, thereby generating heat to keep the tread pliable. Whereas Summer tyres it's all about dissipating heat build up to prevent delamination. |
Sounds like "Nordic Winter Tyres" are what we would call "Studed tyres".
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Dypcdiver wrote: |
| Spyderman, When did they ban studs in the UK? |
Probably because they damage the road when there's no snow / ice about.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Dypcdiver, Although Studded tyres are technically legal they are illegal in practical terms.
Extract from 1986 act: Damage to road, person or vehicle
If the tyre causes either damage to the road, or to persons, or to any vehicle using the road. This would cover such instances as if a vehicle with damaged or very oversized tyres which either caught against a person or other vehicle resulting in either damage or injury. Studded tyres also are included in this clause and if used in inappropriate conditions (i.e. where there is no ice or snow) and they damage the road surface then they would be clearly illegal.
Unlike Nordic countries continuous snow cover on UK roads is highly unlikely, so as soon as the studs made direct contact with Tarmac, it would be deemed to be causing damage to the road surface and therefore become illegal. Obviously it is not practicable to change all 4 wheels from studded tyres as soon as clear tarmac is reached, whereas removal of Snow Chains is practical. They are banned absolutely in Germany for sure.
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| DB wrote: |
| peura wrote: |
| DB, I think what you call snow tyres are called (some manufacturers) "nordic winter tyres" whilst those you call winter tyres they seem to call "central europe winter tyres". I think their terms explain the differences quite well without confusion with M+S tyres. |
Never heard the terms "nordic winter tyres" or "central europe winter tyres" before, are they American or Canadian terms?
So a tyre not wholly suitable for snow is marked "M&S" (for Mud and Snow) as is a tyre suitable for snow and winter conditions. They can be called winter, snow, or nordic / central europe winter tyres - no it's not confusing at all |
I was just suggesting an alternative name for what you call snow tyres as it seems it can be ambiguous . I've not seen any manufacturer use both terms but I'd hope they would if asked. Nokian state that their WR is designed for the "winter conditions of Central European", which in my view make it a central European tyre. Whilst Vredestein describe their Nord-Trac as a "Nordic winter tyre" - which, is far as I can, tell it is a studless/friction tyre. Neither manufacturer seem to specify which "sort" of winter the rest of their winter tyres are designed for so one has to assume they are designed for the "local" (to the manufacturer) winter "type". Putting the two terms together makes sense to me - one is designed for driving on mainly/only snow and ice for several months, the other is designed for driving mainly at higher speeds on "bare roads" and also occasional snow/ice.
As I see it, M+S is purely as dimensional parameter, much like the size, if there is a certain ratio of tread to void they can call it a M+S tyre. I think, though you may have more experience, that M+S tyres are better in the snow than summer tyres but not as good in ice and cold temperature as winter tyres (of any type). To me it seems there are (for cars not 4x4s); summer tyres, all-season tyres, "central Europe" winter tyres, "Nordic" winter tyres and studded tyres. All but the first might be marked M+S. In my view M+S labelling/branding is not useful any more - unless you are looking of a "summer" "off-road" tyre. HTH 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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peura,
Had a look on the tinternet last night and saw that many of the terms are interchanged esp. between different countries.
In an effort to make things clearer I'd agree and say ......
1) M&S tyres with min 4mm tread will be much better than summer tyres in snow but potentially dangerous on ice. They have a tread pattern more suitable for snow.
2) Tyres that also have this symbol
are tyres suitable for winter driving (inc snow & ice). They give better performance when the temperature is below 7 Deg C. They have a tread pattern more suitable to snow and a compound more suitable for ice.
In winter conditions 2) is better than 1) which is better than a normal summer tyre.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Tue 30-10-07 11:44; edited 2 times in total
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| Quote: |
| In winter conditions 2) is better than 1) which is better than a normal summer tyre. |
DB, I agree. I think I recall reading that in California summer tyres+chains is considered equivalent to option 2) without chains for passage through the mountain passes.
There does seem to be a lot of confusion around on the web though.
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FAQ
and at the same time made an investment in safety for you and more importantly other road users (that could be me) 
