 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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easiski, This is really cheeky of me to ask - I'm requesting a free virtual lesson, that is cheeky  - but, as you know, I'm a bit stuck in the muscle memory of long, thin skis...Would you be willing to explain to me in your own vocabulary, with which I've never had a problem, how to initiate a carved turn on modern skis?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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As usual just good straightforward stuff!
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Exactly how it should be!!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| beanie1 wrote: |
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As usual just good straightforward stuff!
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Exactly how it should be!! |
Hear, hear! Are you joining the easiski fan club as well?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Shouting "Pizza" at the sprogs to get them to snow-plough and "French Fry" when they should be parallel seems to work.
The snowplough is a very useful technique that I find myself using more, rather than less as I go off-piste and into the trees more. Interesting trying to describe how it works other than heels-out and weight-forwards. Must be tough being an instructor and having to verbalise what are visual/muscle images.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Hurtle,
I'm already in the Easiski fan club! Never had a lesson with her, but i can tell just from her posts that it would be good! A lot of the armchair instructors on here could learn a lot...
stoatsbrother,
Absolutely, i use it frequently.
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beanie1,
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i can tell just from her posts that it would be good! A lot of the armchair instructors on here could learn a lot...
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Cripes, I didn't half get taken to task for saying exactly that on one occasion. Get yer tin hat out!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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gwaelod, that conjures up a great picture of marital disharmony! 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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You know it makes sense.
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
| Shouting "Pizza" at the sprogs to get them to snow-plough and "French Fry" when they should be parallel seems to work. |
Shouln't that be 'Freedom Fries' 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Hurtle, The problem if you've been skiing for a long time is not how to start a carve, but actually overcoming the automism of the way you already initiate the turn. Generally I would do a number of exercises in updating lessons, all designed to stop you totally unweighting your skis and pushing your heels out. Which exercises would tend to vary according to the student, after I'd met them and seen them ski.
Basic idea though, is that, at the point where you would normally flex and plant your pole you should stretch up onto the big toe of your uphill ski. The toe needs to sort of roll into the corner of the boot between the sole and the wall of it. This will put the new turning ski* slightly onto it's edge so it will start to turn. The scary bit is then to ride through the 'oops' moment, when in the old days we'd be pushing our skis round to get back across the hill again, and carry on into the fall line. At that point you can flex again and the ski will come round. However, it's worth remembering that on old skis in the old days our turns were shaped like this < and on new skis our turns are shaped like this ( . My skis are 11m radius - that means that if the ski was left alone, each turn would have a diameter of a cricket pitch!!!)  So the biggest challenge is often not getting your skis onto the edge, but staying there are waiting for something to happen, rather than making it happen.
*Turning ski is the one doing the work - in other words the ski on the outside of the corner.
All this has nothing to do with snowploughs though - sorry - off topic.  Also, no doubt I'll get a right slagging from other instructors who will think this is a daft way to proceed!!!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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easiski, trying to take that little 'pop' out of the start of my turns was the biggest challenge for me. After that it was, as you say, staying on the ski's edge and waiting for it to do it's thing. If it's steep or you're going quick all your instincts are screaming "quick, haul the skis around", so it takes a fair measure of confidence/experience to wait until the skis do the work. Is there anyway to quickly show your pupils how this works to help them build that confidence?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I was taught that the way to teach carving is J turns. However, in practice I quickly found that initially most people will have too much fear to face straight downhill, then let the ski carry them round. So I start people off in a traverse, on a fairly gentle slope, already on their edges. This allows them to feel the sensation of the shape of the ski doing the work for them, without having to do the hardest part, which is initiate the turn. Then when we move on to J turns, then finally initiating a carving turn, they already know that the shape of the ski will make them turn, and what that feels like - helps them to overcome the fear and (hopefully) resist the urge to push their skis quickly across the fall line.
It still takes time for most people though.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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beanie1, do you start them on the traverse after they've passed the fall line or before? (sorry for dumb question)
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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rob@rar,
Not quite sure I understand your question! I'm talking about teaching people who've probably already got 2 or 3 weeks experience, at basic parallel standard, how to carve. Start them on a traverse (facing ever so slightly downhill so they actually move!), already on their edges, to introduce them to the sensation of the ski turning for them, without the fear of having to cross the fall line.
As easiski says above, it makes a difference if they've been taught to do this from the start, but most won't have been.
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beanie1, thanks, that answers my question - I didn't know whether you had them crossing the fall line or not. So it's like a J turn, just not so scary as they don't face down the hill too much.
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beanie1, do you get them to do it backwards next?
i.e. carved traverse forward to the left, then still facing left, do a carved traverse to the right.
(I apologise if the term "carved traverse" is technically incorrect, but I think it describes the activity)
Last edited by After all it is free  on Mon 17-09-07 11:40; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Wear The Fox Hat,
No, ha ha! I think carving backwards probably comes after being able to carve properly forwards! But i would repeat the exercise in the other direction - forwards!
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| abc wrote: |
1) Plenty of professional instructor (even on this board) do teach teach their peeps to "push their heals out" despite your distaste for it.
I actually wouldn't bother with a snowplough turn. I think it's a waste of time, a parallel turn, even with skis not perfectly parallel, would be my choice. |
My distaste is that by advising the student to push their heels out the instructor is creating a bad habit that will have to be eliminated in the future. We are taliking about complete novices on this thread so they wouldnot yet be at parallel standard and plough turns are not a waste of time.....
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| 2) I'm not a professional instructor so I may do whatever I wish. |
You may do whatever you wish but your post was based on how you would teach a beginner, telling them to do things incorrectly is dangerous and foolish. Learn from this thread and perhaps you will modify what you would tell a beginner.....
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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easiski
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Generally I would do a number of exercises in updating lessons, all designed to stop you totally unweighting your skis and pushing your heels out
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So you are doing lessons that are designed to stop pushing your heels out but you advocate doing this at an early stage 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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skimottaret, There is a very big difference between pushing your heels out in a straight snowplough and doing it in a turn! Indeed, if they do not push their heels out (from parallel) I don't see how they can plough. Their heels need to be wider apart than both their tips and their feet (heels of skis and heels of feet). Ergo, they need to push them apart - out.
The big difference is that in a turn the ski will do it for you with relatively little input (especially if the beginner has short, decent skis), there are no skis that will stop for you.
The quote you show is a response to a question from Hurtle about how to start carving (for her). She is not a beginner, and if you'll note I did flag up that it was off topic.
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FWIW, Spyderman and skimottaret are right on the money.
I had intended not to get too involved in this thread, but seeing as an invitation has been pratically issued, it would seem rude not to. This isn't a test, nor a trick question, nor am I awarding any marks/points.
First off, the current BASI approach is not to teach beginners to snowplough stop, the main reasoning is that this mostly brings about defensive skiers and it's viewed as a defensive move. They would much rather see beginners taught to turn to a stop, across the hill. Now the reasoning is good, but as we know in reality you can't always find a 3 or 5 degree pitch to teach on, space is limited etc., so more often than not you'd have to end up teaching the plough stop.
The big talked about thing in the past few years (and this is why Spyderman and skimottaret are on the money I guess, due to their recent certification) - is getting away from heel pushing, displacement, whatever you want to call it. We all know that the majority of recreational skiers on the hill do this, and it's a bug to cure, in all it's guises, up-stem, down-stem, etc. - so most of the big bodies (BASI/CSIA etc.) have actievly gone away from uttering those immortal words, "push your heels out". I know several BASI trainers that would mark you down severely if you use that phrase in your assessment.
Here at this point, it's probably best to distinguish that when I asked the question in the OP, I had in mind an adult learner, rather than a 5 year old - the teaching approach would of course be different, no technical instructions, just outcome based tasks. But for now lets continue on the assumption that it's an adult learner.
Which brings us onto one of easiski's bees in bonnet. Leving her preference for non-rotary aside for the moment, all systems (BASI,CSIA,PSIA APSI etc.) teach a form of rotary (or pivoting) skills as a method of turning within a blend of the 3 steering elements (pivoting, edging, pressure control). I realise there's a debate raging on another thread about pivoting/steering/rotary etc. but I'm not going to address that in this thread.
Something that no-one has touched on is the importance of being centred, which is vital to discourage that stand on your heels and push them out feeling. If you're centred, you'll be able to achieve turning your toes inwards, whilst simultaneously stretching your legs apart so that your ski tips don't cross, to form a wedge/arrow shape. What usually follows is easiski's usual gynecologist lines of encouragement to "spread 'em", without recourse to that phrase that musn't be mentioned in the presence of a BASI trainer.
| Hurtle wrote: |
| rotate their feet inwards (pronate )so that the skis are rolled onto their inner edges. The more pressure (oops, force) they apply in that position, ie the more they pronate, the more they will make the skis turn on to their edges, and the slower they will go, until they will eventually stop. |
We don't actively get people to do this, this tends to occur more as a fault, as a result of edge-locking and/or bringing knees together. Bit of a disaster when that happens. (all of which skimottaret said on Page1.)
| rob@rar wrote: |
| For those people who have taught beginners to snowplough, if you say "push the heels out" do you see some skiers sit back on their heels when they do this, or do the stay in a reasonably good position on their skis? I know when I do a big snowplough (to come to a stop) I tend to drop back on my heels. Do beginners do this when they are just in a gliding plough? |
Yes. Most skiers, and the steeper the slope, the more aft they end up. Back in the day of the ESC, we had a "snowplough stop - weight method" and "snowplough stop - strength method". Let's not even go there 
| Hurtle wrote: |
| Hmm, I'm fairly positive that I can get my skis into the pie shape, bend my knees to get my weight forward |
How does that work then?
| Hurtle wrote: |
| and still have my feet and skis perfectly flat on the snow - the edging does not occur automatically, rather I have to pronate to achieve it. |
This normally happens with people who are bow-legged and/or supinated, or as david@mediacopy said, "John Wayne Skiing". See it all the time. Although if you say you're knock-kneed, then there is something seriously amiss with your alignment.
Chinese snowplough - to be avoided introducing to beginners. Once they find that edge lock it's very hard to erradicate it. Good as a drill for other skiers in the right situations.
| easiski wrote: |
| Never teach them anything they'll have to unlearn is what I believe. |
100% agree. That's why I (among others) will do our very best not to utter that immortal "heels" phrase, I do acknowledge that *you* differentiate it, although I haven't quite got my head around it yet
Something that we do regularly is to bring our advanced skiers back to the greens for a day, and it's as clear as day, that all their faults in their high level skiing (eg: up-stem, down-stem, rotation etc.) is evident in their snowploughs. So we fix the snowploughs first (definitely no heel pushing) and magically when the speed is ramped up the tail swishing goes away.
So, all this, and we haven't even addressed turning yet.
But I will link in something to do with pressure from the other thread: On a gentle slope, if you turn your snowplough to the left (keeping the wedge/snowplough the same size throuhout the turn), what you will feel is the sensation of pressure builing up as you go through the turn, on your right ski. This is without any "pressing" or "applying pressure" or "pushing". The pressure builds as a result of the "virtual bump", the terrain, the speed, and the forces present. No "forcing", "pushing" etc., we then get the student to deal with that pressure build up, BASI like to use "settle" or "sink" etc. But, this, I suspect, will be a whole new can.
So. What have I observed from this thread? From a seemingly simple OP, "how do you teach a snowplough stop" - we've had 3 pages of debate, and haven't begunb to address turning yet. For those people who wax lyrical of the easiski fan club (it is a good cause). and bang on about keeping it simple, it appears that a simple task actually requires a lot of thought and understanding behind it.
To suggest that the good people on here who talk in great detail about the technical aspects would actually teach like that in real life, frankly, you are doing them(us) a great dis-service. Do not make the assumption or connection that the @nally retentive debates that go on in this forum in anyway reflect how people teach in real life. Because in my case I have a full repeat request diary from clients year after year who are not in anyway remotely interested in the technical details. Some are, but most aren't.
At the end of the day, if you don't like the @nally retentive threads - don't go into them. Many don't. Plenty of choice of places on this board to post non techno stuff. Bend ze Knees has the honour of hosting the techno babble for those who want it, alongside non techno babble.
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You know it makes sense.
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easiski, fair enough, i am not on a witch hunt i just dont like planting the idea of pushing the heels in beginner's minds. I can remember quite a few posts with mountain based instructors commenting that when getting dry slope trained beginners that they had to spend a lot of time undoing heel pushing.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Hurtle, Me too, - thanks for asking the question 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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ickabodblue,
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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veeeight, I do agree with a lot of what you say, and frankly, these days, don't give a monkeys what any system says I should say! Easiski is really just my way of teaching.
However when it comes to rotary movement to start the beginners first turns I cannot agree with anyone who thinks this is a good idea (regardless of who they are). Of course terrain selection is vital (perhaps the most vital skill), and the slope must not be intimidating to even the most nervous skier. We all tend to push a bit, beginners included, but I maintain that if they start with the idea that the ski will do the work they will continue with this idea. It's relatively easy to teach rotary skills later, and no beginner really carves.
How wonderful compared to the bad old days of skis that reached the base of our fingers when the arm was stretched up vertically, when it took at least 3 weeks to learn to do a stem christie, when to become a parallel skier was absolutely the very best a recreational skier could aspire to .... I actually find that by using the ski the students become parallel fairly quickly and do it properly and without major rotation of any part of their upper body.
Having said all that, it may just be that this method suits me, but in LDA with have a guy called Maoro(sp?) Angolante - try googling for him - much more radical!! (his book was the basis for the change in the italian system to deal with carving skis).
skimottaret, Fair enough - I never thought you were on a witch hunt, and you do have to say what they tell you at the moment anyway.
No-one has answered the question: "if they're not pushing their heels out in straight plough what are they doing?"
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Can't snowplough to save my life, dunno which will dislocate first - the knees or the hips. All very embarrassing
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Frosty the Snowman, What do you do when sliding in a lift line?
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veeeight,
4 options usually are
1 grab hold of the lift queue side rope if next to the edge
2 flatten the person in front
3 Stick poles in ground and spear own gut on the handle
4 demolish the turnstile / pass reader
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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So much to learn, and that's just for snowploughs... [sigh]
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FAQ
