 Poster: A snowHead
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Really simple (genuine) question, how would you teach (or explain) a complete beginner, or novice:
1. How to come to a snowplough (wedge) stop
2. How to start to turn (using a snowplough or wedge, unless you have an innovative method)
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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veeeight,
1. To make a Plough, rotate and stretch the legs. Making a wider Plough to slow down, increasing the size until they stop.
BASI now discourage teaching using a plough to stop, better to turn to a stop, but I bring a Plough Stop in once they have the idea that turning slows them down.
2. Think of the Plough as an Arrow shape, just point the Arrow.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Are we allowed recourse to BASI or CSIA manuals or similar material before we attempt an answer? I think this is a tough question because I'm not entirely certain how it works, I just do it instinctively now. And I don't do it terribly well, as easiski reminded me at the EOSB, telling me, with a twinkle in her eye, that I didn't have a Grade III snowplough 
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rob@rar, No 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Spyderman, interesting reply! To me it shows:
a) words alone won't do ('stretch and rotate the legs'???) you have to demonstrate the position yourself; but
b) (subject to a)) a description of the mechanics behind the move would be an unnecessary add-on;
c) a graphic, lay analogy works a treat ('just point the arrow');
d) you're all probably just about to have an argument about where the turn 'starts'! Was veeeight expecting, I wonder, some indication of weight transfer/application of, er, pressure?
PS I'm very good at snowploughs, having super-flexible (in fact over-flexible) hip joints. 
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rob@rar,
but it works though.. ?
I mean, how many style points for a snow plough..?
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| JT wrote: |
rob@rar,
but it works though.. ?
I mean, how many style points for a snow plough..? |
Yes, but at some stage I'm going to have to demonstrate the 'correct' way to do it. At the moment I just do it instinctively, and if asked to describe it in words I'd need to think about exactly what I do.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Pizza nowadays isn't it? Like eh... make the shape of a wedge of pizza with your skis
I am aware that I'm not qualified to add to this post so please feel free to crucify me
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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ickabodblue, great so far - where does the beer come in? 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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rob@rar,
but it works though.. ?
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Maybe it doesn't. I thought I could do a snowplough before I tried it on cross country skis.... when I discovered that the skis could be doing a nice pizza, pointing the arrow, and doing everything else other than actually stopping. You can make the right shape with the skis with entirely the wrong shape with your legs - knees too close together, often. And weight too far back. It doesn't terribly matter, most of the time, for competent downhill skiers because they just rely on the edges and slew the skis around as necessary. But without edges, and with no fixed relationship between boots and skis, that sorts the men from the boys. I definitely belonged in the latter category! Don't know how to teach it but will read the answers with interest.
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stewart woodward,
Oh gosh, I would so love to see someone try!
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You know it makes sense.
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Oh gosh, I would so love to see someone try!
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Err, lots of people try, in ski lessons. 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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OK, I'll have a go:
Snowplough stop (let's not go into turning....)
(All moves demonstrated by you first)
1. Get them going down a gentle slope with skis hip width apart and parallel.
2. At a given point, tell them - using their heels - gently to push the backs of their skis outwards, which will automatically bring the front tips together, so as to achieve a pizza wedge shape (I like it.) Initially, they can keep their skis flat on the snow, and it can be explained that they will scarcely slow down, if at all, with their skis flat.
3. In order to slow down, they should - without making the wedge much wider (if at all - particularly if this is an adult who may not be too comfy in a kid's racing snowplough position) or sitting down/allowing their weight to fall back - rotate their feet inwards (pronate )so that the skis are rolled onto their inner edges. The more pressure (oops, force) they apply in that position, ie the more they pronate, the more they will make the skis turn on to their edges, and the slower they will go, until they will eventually stop.
4. I might show them the probable outcome of leaning back during the manoeuvre - crossing of tips.
5. Having shown them how to do this in slow mo, I might show them how to apply a lot of pressure, I mean force, in one go, so that they can stop in a hurry.
Howzat sound? (Rummages around for tin hat and flak jacket.)
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Poster: A snowHead
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Hurtle,
Sorry Pizza till slightly in front 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Hurtle, A demonstration, like a picture is worth a thousand words. Especially super flexible Hip joints
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Spyderman, Oh, cripes, did I use a thousand words? That could be classified as - I quote - 'banging on'!  (I agree with you, of course.)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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... but what I'm waiting for is for V8 to tell me that my words are b*llocks as well...
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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'Pointy skis' has got the 9 kids I have helped to learn to ski understand what's required to achieve snowplough
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1. start gliding down the hill with your legs about shoulder width apart, then, extend your body slightly upwards while opening your legs a little and slowly rotating your toes inwards to form a wedge shape with your legs.
2. while holding the plough position we just made just turn all ten toes in the direction you want to go.
sorry Hurtle but
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using their heels - gently to push the backs of their skis outwards
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doesnt work for me at all.
pushing heels out and applying pressure to stop are bad words to use IMO.
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veeeight, Ok.
Student has done a number of straight running exercises and is now well balanced on their (very short) skis ....
Me: "next time down, just before the skis stop on their own, open your legs and push your heels out most of all. Gently and persistently" - student does it but crosses tips (they do't usually)
Me: "you need to open your legs much wider and not twist your feet - (if it's a lady who's had kids) "think of giving birth" if it's a lady who hasn't "think of a visit to the gynacologist" or even " open wide, just like at the dentist"
Of course as a female I can get away with this Veeeight might have more trouble.
Turning ......
Student can now snowplough in a straight line down the nursery slope, stop if required, wherever required without either sitting down or back ( hips over balls of feet please, the brakes on the skis are just in front of the toe bindings), they can also traverse a very gentle hill (look at that tree/hut/fallen snowboarder, whatever).
" When you get to .... point, just open gently into a little plough and wait to see what happens"
"OK, you can stop now"
See - the skis ended up going straight down the hill didn't they?" - it's part of their construction"
"OK, now , when you're going straight down the hill in a little plough, turn your chine to your right(left) shoulder - don't move your shoulders at all, just turn your chin and look over your shoulder"
"there you are you went round the corner didn't you"
"it was no effort because you let the skis do their work - that's what they're there for"
Much more of this sort of thing - just a sample as a serious answer to the question. If your students are well balanced and confortable with sliding before starting to snowplough, they're unlikely to have any problem. If they can snowplough (and traverse) well on a nursery slope before they start to turn, they won't have any problem with that either. The problem lies with instructors who push the students too far, too fast, before consolidating the stage before. At the beginning of the week, my peeps might be about 1 hour behind the ESF beginners, by the end of the week they're about 3 days ahead.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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skimottaret,
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pushing heels out and applying pressure to stop are bad words to use
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Why? And is the ultimate conclusion of your 1 a stop? They wouldn't necessarily stop, it seems to me, if the skis are flat (they could be rotating their toes on the same plane ie just rotating the angle of their feet to each other, rather than edging) on your description. But I'm not a ski teacher, I'm not expecting to have got it right!
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easiski,
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push your heels out
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Aha!!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| veeeight wrote: |
Really simple (genuine) question, how would you teach (or explain) a complete beginner, or novice:
1. How to come to a snowplough (wedge) stop
2. How to start to turn (using a snowplough or wedge, unless you have an innovative method) |
It depends on the situation, snow, pupil, etc, but I like to keep things very simple. Asking them to see if they can do it first (in a small way, ie, first vary their speed and then stop, or turn just a little to the left or right) and then refining what they do can work well.
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You know it makes sense.
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How can you turn your toes inwards without pushing your heels outwards? Just tried it, doesn't work - you really will cross your skis!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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oops, just done what i said i hate, sorry skimottaret!
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Poster: A snowHead
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I think when it was taught to me heels and weight didn't come into it. My Swiss friends taught me to do a basic snow plough. They used their hands to show roughly how wide apart the front of the skis should be. Then said that the narrower I made the plough at the back the faster I would go and dif I made it wider I would slow down and stop. When you are ploughing the edges seem to cut in straight away, without needing an explanation, and I felt it straight away. A gentle slope and following them doing faster and slower a couple of times and I got the hang of it.
To teach me to turn with the snowplough they just told me to press harder with the ski on the opposite side to the direction I wanted to go and again I followed them while they demonstrated.
I think it possible to overcomplicate some of these things - after all if I got it with a couple of basic instructions and no in-depth explanation then I'm sure anyone can do it.
Note: this is from the perspective of an instructee not an instructor.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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1. I'll expand. Rotate the legs, so that the skis make a plough or 'V' shape with the tips of the skis close together and the tails of the skis apart. Then stretch the legs to brush the tails of the skis apart, while maintaining the 'V' shape. Keep rotating the legs and stretching to make the plough wider, until you have slowed to a stop. Let me demonstrate.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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IMO If you put the image of pushing the heels out in the students mind you may end up with people sitting back on their heels, digging in the heels and collapsing their knees inwards....
instead try to emphasize the rotation of the leg and keep the weight forward..
demo : on the flat standing still have them make one leg "lite" on the snow and then rotate the leg back and forth to make snow angels
or again on the flat standing still keep the tip of the ski "nailed to the snow" and try to "scrape toast very lightly" or "butter the bread" or "brush away the snow" if they press with the heels the butter wont be evenly spread or the toast will crumble...
My point with this is that by getting the skis into the plough position through rotation and having weight centred the skis will naturally edge. we dont need to talk about pressuring the ski at this point or even mention edging. it will happen naturally.... Once the student feels this we can move on to 3. in V8's progression
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Sat 15-09-07 21:34; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Spyderman wrote: |
| 1. I'll expand. Rotate the legs, so that the skis make a plough or 'V' shape with the tips of the skis close together and the tails of the skis apart. Then stretch the legs to brush the tails of the skis apart, while maintaining the 'V' shape. Keep rotating the legs and stretching to make the plough wider, until you have slowed to a stop. Let me demonstrate. |
By which time your group of 5 year olds have gone to the sweetie shop
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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boredsurfin, Pizza & Chips for kids.
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Spyderman, This thread seems assume beginners are adults when surely the majority would be children?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Hurtle, because they can
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FAQ
Inwards 
