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Are ISIA levels standard internationally?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
This provokes some thought having read the UIAGM / IFMGA threads over the last few days. When booking a guide that has membership of IFMGA you a confident with the level of training that guide has received. You are happy that, regardless of which state issued the licence it will be an indication of a standardised level of competency. Can the same be said for ISIA qualified ski instructors?

http://www.isiaski.org/en/2/msta.html ISIA issue minimum standard rules to their member organisations. Do they all follow them? Is an ISIA a measure of professional competence in terms of ski teachers?

Be interested on the forum views of experiences.
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Pretty much, yes. An ISIA is an ISIA is an ISIA worldwide. Some member states may choose to implement their own higher standard, but pretty much everyone conforms to the bar that ISIA set.
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veeeight, Someone has told me that the ISIA are about to start policing the levels? Also that a two tier system will be implemented with two levels of ISIA membership. Do you know anything about that?
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elbrus, I don't suppose they will name them Level 1 and Level 2 ? wink
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elbrus,
Quote:

Someone has told me that the ISIA are about to start policing the levels? Also that a two tier system will be implemented with two levels of ISIA membership.

I've been told that too, especially about the two tier system.
How did you hear about that?
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Spyderman, I know a couple of BASI guys and keep updated through them. They accessed me to the BASI web site and in the members area you can see it under the latest board meeting notes and in the ISIA international meeting notes (KOREA) Your a BASI member? have a look and see if you read it them same way.
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elbrus, I've just read the notes. I read it as ISIA Red level, pretty much Ski Teacher now and ISIA Black level is ISTD.
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elbrus, Spyderman, I have heard the same too, but can't remember who mentioned it. It wasn't the BASI site though.
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david@mediacopy, A BASI ISTD Trainer told me. My understanding was that the existing Ski Teacher level ISIA was to be split between nations that had done all of the modules in their award scheme like BASI/France and those that hadn't like CSIA/PSIA.
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Spyderman, Looks like its been voted in by the member states. What is interesting is there has always been just 1 silver ISIA stamp. Now it looks like the stamp will go to the red level and the black (a card I believe) will go to higher qualified instructors. So how will this affect the likes of CSIA PSIA APSI members, will they only be eligible for red (the stamp)?
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elbrus, The paths to ISIA are very different between BASI & CSIA. BASI involves as you know many modules over several weeks, plus shadowed hours, second discipline, etc.
CSIA is a 5 day course, followed by a 2 day assessment, the only requirement is you hold CSIA L2.
No wonder ISIA want to award 2 levels of stamp.

I am not knocking CSIA, 35,000 members & I believe the best client focused teaching scheme in the world, but the level requirements are definately different.
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Spyderman, I hear nothing but good stuff about CSIA. People always comment on the client centred focus. From what I have seem the skiing level comparison between a CSIA ISIA level and a BASI level are the same. I think what may happen is the member states will have to offer the same training in terms of the other modules. How would a second language me useful to CSIA and ASPI members? Only if they travel as instructors I guess. However, it is in the minimum guide lines. The Black level ISIA has come about from pressure within Europe I would imagine.
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Spyderman, as usual, please do your research before spouting off. The CSIA L3 is a 5 day course, followed by a seperate 2 day exam, but to gain ISIA certification evidence of extra modules (eg: Avalanche) has to be produced. The examiners for CSIA L3 are well aware of the standards, and on the whole, the ones that I work with do not award a CSIA L3 unless the candidate has shown not only the technical standard, but also the teaching standard, and it's rare to pass the teaching portion unless you've actually worked something like a whole season ski teaching, and most L3 candidates have also done their CSCF Level(s). Don't forget that Canada is a bi-lingual nation so many/most of their candidates meet the dual language requirements.

I can't even begin to tell you the gap between a L2 candidate and a L3 candidate.
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elbrus, More than one language is spoken within Canada.
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rjs, aware of that. the question I am asking is do instructors at ISIA level have to show they can teach in a second language as mentioned in the ISIA rules?
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veeeight,
Quote:

Spyderman, as usual, please do your research before spouting off.

Polite as ever
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elbrus, Re the language requirement, the rules state "should" as opposed to "must" be able to teach in a second language. The "rules" are more guidelines for each member state to implement locally into their system.

For example the CSIA3 course chooses to implement the section on theory oral/written in Day 3 of the course in the form of an indoor prepared presentation to the group.
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veeeight, I see. I suppose some of the rules are open to some interpretation. Do you think the ISIA are going to get tighter on these issues and make it a "Must" instead of "should"? Open question, should they or are things just fine as they are?
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Great debate, but Im just of out to get a costa coffee!
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veeeight, Does the CSIA L3 include 2nd discipline, Child protection, 2nd language, First Aid and a performance module?

Did I say anything about a CSIA Instructors standard of skiing or teaching being inferior to any other nation? No. Would the standards of skiing and teaching be comparable? Yes.
Do you have to go through more to get the BASI rather than CSIA? Yes.
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I think things are fine as they are. These things tend to be of interest only to narcissustic or protectionist member states who feel hard done by.

There are far more pressing issues to address in the world of instruction, like a proper French Snowboard qualification.
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elbrus,
Quote:

a "Must" instead of "should"?

Must = Must
Should = Don't bother rolling eyes
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Spyderman, Do you not understand the difference between "should" and "must" in the UK highway code? The distinction between those two terms are the basis for a case in law for prosecution.
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veeeight wrote:
Spyderman, Do you not understand the difference between "should" and "must" in the UK highway code? The distinction between those two terms are the basis for a case in law for prosecution.


Dont worry Veeeight, Spyderman has never read the highway code Laughing
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I heard a rumour that the new ISIA proposals of having two grades ISIA and ISTD have a serious potential implication in that first level ISIA's would only be allowed to teach in their "own" countries and to teach in a foreign country you need the higher level ISTD license. that would obviously be VERY bad for BASI peeps as there are only so many jobs going in scotland Shocked Shocked

On the second language issue i wouldnt get to concerned by that, BASI for instance send you a remote learning booklet that you have to fill in. Very basic restaurant" type French and a list of words like "broken shoulder"etc. You do not need to be fluent and only need a cursory level of spoken foreign language.

EDITED for terrible spelling


Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Thu 19-07-07 16:01; edited 1 time in total
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veeeight,
Quote:

Spyderman, Do you not understand the difference between "should" and "must" in the UK highway code?

I didn't know the ISIA now offered driving lessons. Puzzled

'Should' refers to an obligation or duty.
'Must' is something that is mandatory.

Looks like different bodies have interpreted the wording in it's spirit and chose to abide by it and some have taken it literally and chose to ignore it.
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skimottaret, I think the silver stamp ISIA instructors will be able to work internationally, but only for ski schools. The Black ISIA card holders ( ISTD in BASI terms) will be able to work independent.
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elbrus, good to hear and that makes more sense to me. My info was strictly rumour only....
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You know it makes sense.
veeeight, Can you spell out clearly what is required for CSIA 3 in terms of modules and length of training. I am sure that the technical skiing level will be the same between all the associations. Not having a go but you came down hard on Spyderman but didnt really state what the extra modules training requirements are for CSIA level 3

I think his point is valid and a clear answer would be of interest to say rungsp who's son is debating which way to go....
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skimottaret, I asked a similar question of veeeight,
Quote:

veeeight, Does the CSIA L3 include 2nd discipline, Child protection, 2nd language, First Aid and a performance module?

From what veeeight, quoted,
Quote:

The CSIA L3 is a 5 day course, followed by a seperate 2 day exam, but to gain ISIA certification evidence of extra modules (eg: Avalanche) has to be produced.

Does that mean that you can have a CSIA L3 without ISIA status? Are there 2 tiers of CSIA L3?
You certainly don't get BASI Ski Teacher without ISIA status.
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skimottaret, it wasn't the content of the CSIA L3 course, but rather the dispute for min standards for ISIA that I was mildly irritated by. All the examiners I work with are well aware of the value of the ISIA stamp, and do not dish out L3 certifications unless the candidate truly meets that standard in all areas.

There are not 2 tiers of CSIA L3, however when the national office processes your details for ISIA membership they will need to see your CAA approved Avalanche course certificate (and 1st aid qualifications). Child teaching and protection are covered within the theory portion, and like I said previously 99.9% of L3 candidates will already have done their performance section (CSCF).

As for the pre-requsite teaching/shadowing hours, it's extremely rare/unheard of for the L3 to be awarded to a candidate that does not demonstrate experience of a seasons teaching, or is extremely gifted and can demonstrate aweome teaching (low level, high level, pedagogy etc.) out of the box.

We are now arguing about semantics, and to answer the OP, yes, an ISIA is an ISIA, is an ISIA worldwide from all member states. The premis that BASI throw in additional hoops for their members (predominantly to impress the French) does not alter the fact that the rest of the world (PSIA, CSIA, APSI, NZSIA etc.) still meet the ISIA requirements.

The uphill struggle that BASI faces (historically, presently, and in the future) is the recognition of the qualification from the French (and other Alpline Nations), and although great strides have been achieved, this will always be the stigma that won't go away. So BASI is perceived by many to be having to prove a point, and go that extra mile to demonstrate their competence so that they can remain on the (uneven) playing field. Some say (incl. ISTD members) that this had taken the form of displaying good technical skiers on the hill, at the expense of their teaching methodology (eg: perception is all important, has to be seen to ski as well/better than). However, this is a whole new can of worms, politics, and indeed a whole new thread (and indeed doing one's laundry in public, which I'm not prepared to do).

The vast majority of the public (our clients) couldn't care less if you had a BASI, PSIA, CSIA, what level, or indeed a tufty badge. None of these guarantee that you are a good/great ski teacher. As I commented earlier, these things tend to be of interest only to narcissustic instructors. Reminds me of my previous posts about some CI's being better teachers than higher qualified instructors.
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veeeight, Thanks for taking the time to reply.

I for one am not looking to say which association is better or worse but rather just trying to to have a clear understanding of the differences. When i started training as an instructor i had no idea there were different levels, associations, Club instructors, etc. and just assumed all "instructors" had the same training and were ski gods. I would like to understand the differences so i can be knowledgeable and offer good advice to others contemplating instructor training. For instance i was teaching yesterday and at lunch several people were talking about the new BASI levels and had it completely wrong. With the information I learned from Snowheads i was able to put a couple of people at ease who were seriously considering abandoning further training due to being misinformed.

I like teaching and that is why I am persevering with going through the training hoops, i for instance picked BASI not due to any comparison but because they offered courses at my favourite resort, I had no idea the CSIA, PSIA, NZ etc etc. even existed. Unfortunately for me i bought a ski property in France and my long term goal is to be able to teach there. It took me weeks to understand the legalities let alone realities of working there and i am still unclear on certain aspects.

Don’t confuse my pedantry about training requirements with narcissism.

I enjoy the teaching other wise i would be going heli skiing, not learning how to demo plough parallels wink As i go through the learning and training path and continue get more hours of teaching under my belt in a few years perhaps i can take the lofty position you sometimes preach from.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Quote:

perhaps i can take the lofty position you sometimes preach from.

I'll humbly take that in the spirit it was intended. Wink
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veeeight, sorry about that, bit of a harsh reproach in retrospect, not intended to be that firm, but felt i needed to fight my corner a bit for some reason;-) wink
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I'll still humbly take it. wink

It's summer, there's no snow beneath my feet, and yes, I am sometimes grumpy because I'm not skiing. Laughing
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veeeight, I am about to be less grumpy myself as i am off to mottaret tomorrow and will be hiking the glaciers. Toofy Grin Toofy Grin
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veeeight, just thought of one you may like. The Director of my local dry slope who is an ex Italian national team member and olympian moved to England in the 70's and the standing joke with European skiers at that time was a BASI ISIA stood for "I Ski In Aviemore"
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Laughing
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I am sorry if this has been answered before, my question is exactly what in addition to a NZSIA ISIA would be required to teach in France as;
1. a stagiaire
2. an instructor

many thanks
s
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squirrel, Welcome to Snowheads. Check out:

http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=26855
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