 Poster: A snowHead
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revolutionski,
An ISIA is an ISIA, that's the whole point it's international. so TT or Euro and you're sorted.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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veeeight,
U.S.A.
Qualification
In the USA an instructor does not have to be qualified (or 'certified') to teach!
Different snowsport schools have different qualification requirements for foreign instructors and generally the minimum age for employment is 18. Each resort sets its own pay levels according to qualification and, in practice, most resorts will aim to fill full-time positions with qualified staff - part-time staff fill in the shortfalls at peak times at holidays and week-ends.
For example, in New Hampshire BASI's Instructor level (formerly Grade 3) qualification is widely accepted and job application is available online at www.loonmtn.com.
However in some resorts in Colorado and Montana, at BASI Instructor or Teacher level, until you are established you are likely to be offered posts teaching in the children's programme.
Work Permit
An instructor must apply to a recognised ski school and obtain a job offer. Once the offer is in place, the ski school will usually help you to apply for an H2 temporary work visa - which is specific to that ski school. The visa will be sent to your UK address. You are not allowed to work for a different employer other than that shown on the visa.
If applying for the visa yourself, notification from the ski school may not arrive until late in the year and you then have to send this together with your application and passport to the US embassy in London to obtain the visa. Please note that postal applications or drop-in box at the London Embassy or Belfast Consulate are the only way of obtaining your visa (you cannot go in person).
Other Requirements
For Loon Mountain in New Hampshire, job applications for the following season must be received no later than 1st August. The Human Resource Dept. there also advises on accommodation needs.
Extract from BASI website.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Spyderman, So how is that different to the UK, Aus, or NZ? Or anywhere else?? I know of several ski slopes that have instructors with no certifications nor qualifications.
I think it's sensationalism of BASI to include that one-liner in their write up about the USA.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Spyderman, Good summaries thank you[ but the French situation is still a littel unclear with regards to Grade 3's
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1. Be part of the ESF system with a ski school holding the Centre de Formation status (training status), as a 'stagiaire' (trainee). This involves passing the Test Technique, a timed Giant Slalom, organised by the DDJS (local département authority), at which the candidate must achieve a specified time.
After obtaining the Test Technique and a First aid Certificate, the candidate enters the Préformation, a 2-week residential course, again run by the DDJS. After this, the candidate becomes a 'stagiaire' and can work for an approved ski school.
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what does a BASI 3 need to start work as a stagiaire. Is it the Eurotest or Test Technique?
New generation quote the following in a document they produce regarding working in Europe:
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"Teaching in France as a Stagiere All new British trainees who obtain their ISIA qualification must then pass their Test Technique before working in France.
Frequently Asked Questions
Can I work in France with my BASI Ski Instructor (BASI Grade 3) qualification?
You can work in France with this qualification but only if you have passed the Euro Speed Test. You can then apply to work as a Stagiare with a ski school that is a recognised French training centre.
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I am trying to clear this up but havent got any answers on this subject. can anyone confirm this?
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| easiski wrote: |
skimottaret, I don't see the difference between working in France, Italy or Austria (or Switzerland for that matter). It's only that in France you're called a "stagiare" and in the other countries you're just paid less - amounts to the same thing. However many of my friends have been stagiares for many years. It takes a French instructor about 6-10 years to get through their system. there's no shame in the name.
According to the excellent info provided by Spyderman, It would seem to be harder to work in Italy and Switzerland than in France. Why does everyone jump on the French bandwagon all the time - you can't believe what you read in the papers surely?
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Not trying to be inflamatory but i genuinely want to understand the realities of working in France in addition to the letter of the law.
I think the apprentice system in france is very good in concept but the "centre du formation" rule as to what schools can employ stagiares IS a form of protectionism. I appreciate that this rule was put in to stop small schools from using lower grade instructors as cheap labour and not genuinely for training but at the same time is unfair to non french schools.
For instance I can train with sizable established ski schools that run instructor trainning programmes such as New Generation or BASS but they cannot employ stagiares. New Gen for instance has had to open a swiss ski school so their grade 2's can work while training for the ISTD. Phillip Stanton posted on another thread that to qualify as a training school the ISTDs to stagiare ratio must be 10 to 1 AND the ISTD's must be qualified through the French system, BASI or Austrian ISTD's dont count. If true that is very much a protectionist rule.
Reading Spydermans information and from my perspective as a newly qualified BASI 3 wanna be instructor that is looking to get time teaching on the mountain my options for working in the Eurozone countries as an EU citizen are:
Italy - i can work in any ski school, or, take private clients for up to 15 days a year
Austria - i can work up to 28 days
UK - i can work anywhere
France - Although in theory i could work for a full season, this could be in only a small handful of French controlled ski schools with Centre du Formation status and i must pass the Eurotest first.
All the countries have some paperwork hurdles to go through but to me working in France sounds more restrictive and tailored towards hiring French ex racers.
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revolutionski, THis may be a good contact for you (information from NewGen FAQ's sheet)
Can I teach in France with either the NZSIA Certificate in Ski Instruction, Level 1, Level 2 or Trainers Certificate?
Wherever you are in the NZ system you'll have to do some qualifications to bring you in line with the French system. The best person to speak to is Marc Vernier at the Jeunesse et des Sports in Grenoble. His organisation is responsible for telling you what you need to do in order to bring yourself in line with the French qualifications.
Marc is contactable on + 33 476 33 53 73 and speaks good English.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
Spyderman
An ISIA is an ISIA, that's the whole point it's international. so TT or Euro and you're sorted.
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I was refering more to the qualification you have before BASI, PSIA, NZSIA etc as you would be working towards one of the Eurogroup top quals during your stagiere training. I couldn't work towards my BASI ISTD anymore, I have to go back & do my ISIA with BASI.
I work for Vail Resorts in the states ,at Keystone & we employ a large amount of unqualified Instructors, & with the way our priority system works it is very possible that unqualified instructors are higher than qualified instructors. Qualification has no place in the priority system which I personally think is disgraceful. The top istructors are not the best instructors they are the best salesmen/women
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skimottaret,
thank you, that's very usefull. I will definatly be in contact with him
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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skimottaret,
The 28 day rule in Austria only applies to instructors working independently in Tirol. If you are employed by a ski school you can work a full season.
You can also work easily in Switzerland and Andorra (with 4 days extra training).
There is a definitive explanation of earch country here:
http://www.basi.org.uk/members/memb_jobs_how.asp
HOWEVER, I have heard a rumour that ISIA are attempting to tighten up the rules. BASI grade 3 (and other national equivalents) would become ISIA level 1 where you can only teach in your own country, with grade 2 (ISIA) you can teach in other countries and grade 1 you can open your own ski school abroad. This was said in a chat given by PK in Zermatt a few weeks ago, but I only heard it second hand.
I can see if this happens it will cause major problems for grade 3s attempting to work their way up the system, as unlike most other ISIA countries we don't have many mountains, certainly not with reliable snow. It would solve the problem of underqualified instructors on artifical slopes in the UK though!
Sounds like an incentive to get a move on with my grade 2 if ever there was one...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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easiski, it all hangs on the definition of "run" doesn't it? Does it mean own and administer (which would be my interpretation) or practise? I can see that the majority of interest would be from ski instructors and hence the info that you can't work freelance without ISTD is pertinent. I can also envisage a situation of a business person wanting to give up the London rat race, being a keen skier (but not an instructor) wanting to live in the mountains seeing a potential business opportunity to set up a ski school in the form of a limited company and employing a host of ISTDs as the main workforce. It seems the phrase "need ISTD to run a ski school" is written against the background of ESF being a collective - but new businesses might not want to operate as a collective. If someone were wanting to set up a ski school in Switzerland, for example (and I don't know whether it's a protected industry) a limited company would be a good form, especially if you had a pet resident to sit on the board - that person would then be "running" a ski school
Just a passing thought - maybe it's the fact ESF is a collective that accounts for it having a higher-than-average proportion of less-than-satisfactory instructors because nobody can be sacked for poor performance therefore there's no incentive to e.g. a farmer who is only instructing to see himself through the winter financially, to actual be any good at the job/customer service etc.? Dunno, it's just speculation on my part
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beanie1,
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The 28 day rule in Austria only applies to instructors working independently in Tirol. If you are employed by a ski school you can work a full season.
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That strengthens my point about Eurozone working practices and the French system.
Interesting rumour, the future is looking even more bleak for instructors on the lower rungs regarding getting teaching hours in the mountains. looks as though i will have to spend my life in the snowdome or dryslopes while working towards an ISIA. 
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You know it makes sense.
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skimottaret,
nah you can work in USA or Australia etc without ISIA.... you will probably have to do hiring clinic in australia (ie learn their system)... but can work there
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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little tiger, your right but for me moving to the USA or oz isnt possible with a 12 year old at home. was hoping for something a bit closer to home (essex or the 3valleys)
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Poster: A snowHead
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| revolutionski wrote: |
| Qualification has no place in the priority system which I personally think is disgraceful. The top istructors are not the best instructors they are the best salesmen/women |
This is a reality in many forms of business in the world - top dogs are often the sales people rather than the do-ers or the thinker/creators. In instructing I would have thought it slightly different in that the highest referral rate/best customer feedback must come from actually showing clients a good time. This of course may havenothing to do with giving them the maximum technical progression or holding a lot of badges yourself e.g. to an adult beginner a really enthusistic, friendly and, dare I say it, attractive member of the opposite sex might be a better fit than the top qualified instructor on the mountain
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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skimottaret,
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what does a BASI 3 need to start work as a stagiaire. Is it the Eurotest or Test Technique?
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Test Technique.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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fatbob,
in the priority systems i have seen it is all on other issues, you get points for things such as longevity of employment at THAT ski school, number of seasons worked overseas, having a mother that works for the resort (or is friends with the ski school boss), being the current lay of the guy doing the lesson allocations, etc etc
I have heard of people requesting an instructor and being told they are unavailable... only to see same instructor heading home as there is no work for them.... of course the lesson got handed on ... to one of the favourites...
I have also heard of highly qualified instructors handing their overflow clients to unqualified instructors in order to ensure that they return!
So client feedback rates zip - what better feedback than requesting a private with the instructor?
and neither do qualifications/experience!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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little tiger,
Ah I see, the world of office politics is alive and well on the slopes!
I guess this is just a way of ensuring supposedly more open ski instructing systems end up as local protectorates like the ESF: locals, long timers and perhaps brown nosers still do best.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
FRANCE
Qualification
At present the French authorities only recognise Alpine qualifications, other disciplines being treated as offshoots. To work in France a UK instructor must comply with one of the following:
1. Be part of the ESF system with a ski school holding the Centre de Formation status (training status), as a 'stagiaire' (trainee). This involves passing the Test Technique, a timed Giant Slalom, organised by the DDJS (local département authority), at which the candidate must achieve a specified time.
After obtaining the Test Technique and a First aid Certificate, the candidate enters the Préformation, a 2-week residential course, again run by the DDJS. After this, the candidate becomes a 'stagiaire' and can work for an approved ski school.
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Spyderman, What is your source for stating TT is okay for BASI 3's , if it is the info from the BASI website you posted earlier that is far from clear to me. Not second guessing you but i have it from New Gen you must have Eurotest.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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skimottaret,
BASI 3 + TT is ok to work in France. It has been for a number of years.
Whilst the ESF ski schools are collectives people are 'sacked' for unsatisfactory conduct etc.
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skimottaret, BASS Les Gets, told me TT was OK.
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stewart woodward, Spyderman, thanks that is good news, I will follow up with New Gen to see why they say otherwise.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Mitch,
Where have you been hiding?
Forget Europe. except for spring powder.
Get yourself and your good lady to Japan.
Send me an email.
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eng_ch, With regard to "running" a ski school. That is exactly it - running it. I suppose someone from outside could own it, but the person running the school (ie: general manager) needs to be ISTD.
ESF is not the only school in France with Centre de Formation status. Most French ESIs also have it check out http://ecoledeski.fr/ I'm getting sick of everyone talking about the ESF as if it was French ski teaching. IT ISN'T. eg: the Biritsh instructors who work for the European ski school in LDA (Euangoneskiing is one,) may not have ISTD to start with. They are registered under the ESI St Christophe (Jeremy has an "arrangement" with them), and work towards their qualifications. Once they've passed they can then work for the ESS. One preferred to stay at the ESI.
While unsatisfctory instructors can be "sacked" in a collective it requires a majority vote in the reunion and in reality doesn't often happen - after all - you could be next!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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easiski,
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ESF is not the only school in France with Centre de Formation status. Most French ESIs also have it
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No need to shout and yes some ESI schools have CDF status but that is because their 10 ISTDs per student have french qualifications. BASS & NEWGEN who train for BASI and primarily hire Brits or Italians dont qualify so cant take on stagiares.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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skimottaret, But those you're quoting are British ski schools - they're basically in a different category, although they may be "abonnée" to SIMS. I don't thin kthey bother though, although most of their instructors are probably members. The ESF had been mentioned twice as being the only schools allowed to have stagiares - once after I had corrected the assumption. therefore I feel justified in shouting as it was the second time I had to explain this.
ESI means Ecole de Ski Internationale, but the real meaning is Ecole de ski Independent. There are ESIs in virtually every resort. I just get fed up with the ESF being constantly referred to. Maginc in Motion is one, and to have 10 Nationals is not that hard for a French ski school. they don't have to be ISTD in reality, but "Nationale", which might mean they passed a while ago (as I did) when it was still ISIA. Whether those of us with Equivalence are now counted as ISTD, I don't know.
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stewart woodward, Spyderman, I talked to Emma Carrick-Anderson today at Snoworks and she said definately that BASI 3 MUST have Eurotest to work as stagiare in France. ISIA with Test Technique is the other option.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Spyderman, i agree that is why i followed up on this one further. Emma (who runs Eurotest training) and New Gen both have independently told me this. As she is running training programmes for Eurotest in France i recon she is a good source and perhaps the rules have changed since you spoke with Hugh?
The feeling i get is that they dont want 3's as stagieres unless they are real hot racers and have some potential.
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Poster: A snowHead
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So what's the Test Technique ? Slalom rather than GS ?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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david@mediacopy, Yup
Spyderman, thinking about it further it sort of makes sense in that once you start as a stagiare you have a limted time (3-4 years) to get your ISTD and Eurotest. A bog standard Grade 3 would really struggle to do it in that time scale but for a good skier with a eurotest under his/her belt it should be possible to go through the 2 and 1 training in that time knowing they didnt have to dedicate time to eurotest training.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Spyderman, surely a Grade 3 (being theoretically a lower standard) once having passed their eurotest, would not have to do the TT. Test tecnique is the entry level the french have to achieve to be allowed onto their preformation training course. They can't do (AFAIK) the Prefor without having first passed the TT to ensure that they're a suitable standard.
skimottaret, I think you're right about your feeling. It was the numbers of poor Grade 3s working for the TOs back in the day that really caused the problems to start with. I'm talking more than 20 years ago now.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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easiski, it'd simply mean that if going thru BASI you'd have to do ISIA before passing TT and being able to work as stagiere, unless you were a BASI III already skilled enough to get the Eurotest and just going thru the motions to get to ISTD
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Spyderman, so am I - I guess it must be just 'cos they're French and BASI isn't!!
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slikedges, skimottaret, A change in the rules as fundamental as this would have been posted on the BASI website & BASI News. I have seen nothing. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Spyderman, I'd've thought it'd be there too; I know nothing more than what I've read here!
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| easiski wrote: |
| Spyderman, surely a Grade 3 (being theoretically a lower standard) once having passed their eurotest, would not have to do the TT.. |
That is correct if you have a Eurotest pass you dont have to do TT. Also if you have under a certain number if FIS points you are exempt from either depending on how low you are.
The few ISIA trainees i met last year (all youngsters) were all planning on skipping the TT and going straight for the Eurotest on the basis that to get to grade one they had to do it at some point and you only get a couple of attempts per year at it.
Spyderman, I have been trying to find out the realities of working in France while going through the BASI system and after several months of digging for information i am still confused as well and not sure about anything.
Does anyone know a BASI 3 working in France?
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FAQ
We've had lots of previous discussions about copyright issues! 
BASI 2 requires an easier (Technique) test than BASI 3 (Eurotest) Eurotest is hard enough for BASI 1's to get. Unless you're a racer a BASI 3 will find it almost impossible.
