 Poster: A snowHead
|
| Arno wrote: |
I have no comment on this but one request. Can we do away with this "phat" thing? It's Fat
end of |
I agree as "PHAT" is a yoof's RnB type slang abbreviation for "PHysically ATtractive", and has nothing to do with "fat". Most "fat" skis just look so loppy.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
Mike Lawrie, The Mantras are nice, Sophie tried a pair in Utah and they were a big improvement over her P50 SLs (!!)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Mike Lawrie,
Mantras..... great ski
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| JT wrote: |
Mike Lawrie,
Mantras..... great ski |
Awesome in fact - I nearly lost faith in them last monday doing short turn practice all day on the boiler plate (though anyone on anything wider than a narrow 'all-mountain' also seemed to struggle) but by the afternoon of the next day with an unexpected huge lunchtime dump, the love had returned!! 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
stuarth,
Best turns of the season on these. Also liked the Havoc, and Outlaws for one blinding powder run...but they did seem a bit heavy..
Hon mention to the Movement Spark as well...wide enough at 82mm to be good fun off-piste, although it wasn't so deep and cut a mean turn on closed icy blacks. They had safety netting out across the piste in places but these babies sorted that stuff out. Impressive
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
I got a pair of Movement Sparks this season and have never looked back. Great on piste, great in powder, great on ice, and great at just powering through the crappy cruddy stuff as well...
I will be keeping these for a while!
|
|
|
|
|
|
brian
brian
Guest
|
|
In proper powder, like really light, dry, fluffy stuff that's been allowed to float down gently, any old ski will feel pretty good. In what we actually experience 99% of the time, fat skis do make it easier.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
the deeper the snow the fatter the ski! but also i like fat ski's when the slope is a little steeper as i feel more stable.
Our guide in St Anton had this advice, put equal pressure on both skis when turning rather than the piste technique of more downhill weight. The aim is to have one centralised motion point. He also said it is essential to find a rhythm like a dolphin compressing before the turns and then releasing on the turn, thsi will bounce you up out of powder allowing you to turn easily.
I ski volkl gotoma but also like the look of the blizzard titan pro's 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
It's not just the "fat" in the fat that helps though. Bigger turn radius/less sidecut means a more stable, less twitchy ride too. Narrow skis tend to have a bigger sidecut.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Mosha Marc, Sidecut is less apparent in deep snow, Camber is the way the ski will turn. So stiffness and Flex play a massive part.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
SMALLZOOKEEPER, indeed. My DPS Lotus 120s have pretty much no camber and a sidecut radius of 41m and they are the easiest skis to control in soft snow I have ever been on. They do what you tell them to, not what the ski's sidecut dictates. Lots of ski companies seem to be cottoning on to this - not sure whether the UK consumer has yet though!
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
Arno, The UK market is so hard there are still too many by poorly trained, poorly paid, incentivised shop staff. Sorry if this seems a sweeping statement, i'm sure there are Gems amongst them, but i meet them and listen to their spoonfed Marketting every year. There are real specialists out there, Lockwoods being one, whom would love to stock a range of skis with a good radius but come in at 90-110mm at the waist. The Brit Market seams scared the product is too specialised but i feel things are on the turn. Example, how many of you jumped onto a pair of Scott Missions this year? I bet the move up to a 98mm ski is no longer to be feared?
I have too a poorly paid, well trained member of staff. Impossible to motivate and disintrested in the job. He's quit. And is moving home, so we too can have problems. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I personally think you're talking trash about ski geometry. There are huge compromises in using skis with 90-100mm waists. You'd might as well clamp your feet to a pair of ironing boards.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
Here we go again 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
Well I can't see the point of undergoing 3 hours of precision boot fitting only to use the product to steer a pair of plasterboards.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
David Goldsmith, Modern ski technique has us open our stance further than before and then we spend more time on our edges using the said geometry to carve a turn. This will mean that the edge to edge speed is less important unless skiing against the clock. Therefore width become less an issue and sidecut a more important one. Presicion bootfitting helps drive a longer, wider ski as it can be subjected to greater torsional forces.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
Never approach a firework you suspect may have gone out.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
I agree with the first point if one defines "modern ski technique" as 'post-1973', give or take a few years. Stance can only be opened to hip width before the skis go onto their inside edges the whole time. Hip-width skiing is good for ski balance and control (though it's interesting that bump skiers have reverted to a much narrower stance).
Edge to edge speed is very important, not because it's about overall speed, but because it's about control on anything except the stuff we don't normally enjoy.
That's why I think the punters are right to avoid 90-100mm width skis for their main pleasures.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
Look...this is getting silly!
Do FAT skis make a difference in powder?
Is the Pope a Catholic?
Watch the very best powder skiers on the mountain, watch powder skiing films, watch freeskiing competitions.
Are they on skinny skis or fat skis?
I rest my case.
It is laughable that this is even being debated!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
rungsp, it's not a silly debate at all. Most people can only buy and transport one pair of skis, and the last thing they need are skis that will turn with all the agility of a grounded supertanker (on piste).
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I thought the discussion was about whether fat skis make a difference in powder; not how easy they are to carry around nor what their on piste performance is like
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, actually, the crucial word in the question was "big":
Do fat/phat/pfat skis make a big difference in powder?
They don't. Effective ski technique makes all the difference in the world.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| I agree with the first point if one defines "modern ski technique" as 'post-1973', give or take a few years. |
I know 1973 is probably the last time you skied (give or take a few years) but it's 2007, get with it. Maybe drop the polo neck and one piece fartbag too.
Phat skis do make a difference in Powder. You can ski at a slower speed without sinking. You sink less and so bottom out less when the powder is not that deep. Although it's not the size of your tool but the technique that counts, it is far easier learning to ski powder on fat skis. (those of you lucky / old enough to learn on skinny sticks and build up good technique might not see this advantage and probably still have a wind up gramophone with many Cliff Richards '78's records)
If you are a piste skier and don't venture into the soft stuff then something narrower would be a better selection of ski. If you never go skiing then you might as well argue about the price of veg at Cirencester market than fat skis.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Thu 22-03-07 14:08; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Yes, yes .... but do they make a big difference ... Dangerous Brian?
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
After several years of skiing on 78mm underfoot skis I've this year mostly been skiing 93-97mm skis. Make a HUGE difference - night and day. Currently developing a theory that for off-piste you should look for a skis that's about the same underfoot in mm as you weigh in kg - based on the fact that I also found a huge difference in the soft stuff between 88 (BD Havocs) and 93mm (BD Kilowatts, Stockli DP Pros) underfoot, but gained little more going up to 97 (BD Verdicts, Dynastar Legend Pro Riders). All great skis BTW.
As you go to a wider ski, I've found it takes more conscious effort to get onto the edges and keep them engaged (particularly the edge of the inside ski). Hence I would certainly agree with SMALLZOOKEEPER, and disagree with David Goldsmith, in that a precise fit is MORE important for a recreational skier when driving these 'supertankers'. They're maybe a bit slower to get around in a couloir than something short and snappy, but I'd much prefer the knowledge that they'll hold me up and not trip me over when landing on a steep and deep slope than have to spand a calorie less on the jump. BTW Having just spent a week skiing on the Legend Pro Riders (as skied by Arno and BernardC), I found them to also be a pretty good ski on piste and were great fun carving fast turns, and even short swings, but get into the ruts on a hard GS course and then they really don't work  .
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| Yes, yes .... but do they make a big difference ... Dangerous Brian? |
To a learner powder skier, yes.
When skiing very deep to bottomless, yes.
If you make bigger turns in the powder rather than bum twisting everywhere, yes.
When hanging out in Zermatt at the local Apres Ski bar in a polo neck, probably (not).
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| David Goldsmith wrote: |
Well, actually, the crucial word in the question was "big":
Do fat/phat/pfat skis make a big difference in powder?
They don't. Effective ski technique makes all the difference in the world. |
Well, not entirely true IMHO. Technique is of course the main thing, but fat skis certainly make things easier, particularly in heavier powder (and in _really_ heavy powder make it enjoyable rather than misery). I find they also allow you to 'hoon' around a lot more, as they provide a much more forgiving platform. Therefore, yes they do make a _big_ difference.
| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| rungsp, it's not a silly debate at all. Most people can only buy and transport one pair of skis, and the last thing they need are skis that will turn with all the agility of a grounded supertanker (on piste). |
Yes and I only take my fat skis (though I also have some mid-fat twins and some GS skis, I just don't cart them all around).
Once again agility is a technique thing. OK so you can't get from edge to edge that quickly so carved short turns are tricky, carving performance is a bit limited on very hard snow and you don't get the energy you get from race skis, but unless you are racing this really isn't much of a problem - apart from that there are no problems making short turns on fat skis. On the other hand I'd find taking a pair of super-sidecut slalom skis off-piste presents more issues.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
GrahamN, how did you find the fats/phats/pfats on steeper powder - hard to tame speed or a tight rhythm?
There was once a jazz pianist called Fats Domino. Someone should (not) name a ski after him. But it would be great to see a really really wide grand piano named after him.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
GrahamN has put it very well. I'd add that big skis also allow you to do more things in deep snow than their skinnier cousins. If you can do your powder Ss with skinny skis and that's all you want to do, fine. If you want to play around with your turn radius, jump off things, butter turns etc, a big ski makes a big difference
Glad you enjoyed the LPs, by the way, GrahamN. I've done some of the most fun high speed carving I've ever done on them. Never tried them through ruts - probably not what they are made for 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| GrahamN wrote: |
| Currently developing a theory that for off-piste you should look for a skis that's about the same underfoot in mm as you weigh in kg . |
Am currently looking for a pair of matching canoes with a decent sidecut
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| David Goldsmith wrote: |
There was once a jazz pianist called Fats Domino. . |
Not "once was", happily he is still with us at only 78 years old, having narrowly missed being wiped out by Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| David Goldsmith wrote: |
GrahamN, how did you find the fats/phats/pfats on steeper powder - hard to tame speed or a tight rhythm?
|
Why would they make it any harder to tame the speed than skinny skis? Just because you can do big super-g turns in the pow on fat skis doesn't mean you have to... well ok... sometimes... 
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Thu 22-03-07 14:43; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| DB wrote: |
| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| Yes, yes .... but do they make a big difference ... Dangerous Brian? |
To a learner powder skier, yes.
When skiing very deep to bottomless, yes.
If you make bigger turns in the powder rather than bum twisting everywhere, yes.
When hanging out in Zermatt at the local Apres Ski bar in a polo neck, probably (not). |
That's one of the best posts I've seen from you in a long while, DB. Credible, authoritative, honest.
I'm going to shock you now by saying that I got all those sensations and advantages from the monoski, and even more power from the feet locked on a single deck. People slag off monoskis, but by keeping them fairly tight to the fall-line (i.e. avoiding traversing between turns), or by doing big round turns through the deep, they can be sensational fun with a calm upper body.
I take the polo off for apres, by the way. A nice open-necked cotton shirt is perfect for the intimate warm environment of a Zermatt bar.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
[quote="David Goldsmith"]
| DB wrote: |
| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| Yes, yes .... but do they make a big difference ... Dangerous Brian? |
A nice open-necked cotton shirt is perfect for the intimate warm environment of a Zermatt bar. |
Very dangerous behavior!
Don't you know that in the mountains that cotton kills>
Surely as an old Mattahorn Hand you know that?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
TallTone,
I like clashes of opinion, as long as it doesn't get nasty or personal (unless clearly tongue-in-cheek). I agree - keep it up
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| Frosty the Snowman wrote: |
| GrahamN wrote: |
| Currently developing a theory that for off-piste you should look for a skis that's about the same underfoot in mm as you weigh in kg . |
Am currently looking for a pair of matching canoes with a decent sidecut |
do they have a pair of skis for you!
or
how about these? You may need to join Kramer's straight line club if you ever took those on piste though.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| TallTone wrote: |
DB, David Goldsmith, just wanted to let you know that I'm really enjoying this! Do please keep it up!  |
Do you like Morecambe and Wise? Yes, I thought so.
DB and I took a conflict resolution course with Jef Wickes some time ago. For those who don't know JW, he operates the Jef Wickes Wintersports Abuse Zone which exists in a remote 'virtual electronic cave' in a jungle in the Cirencester area.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
