Step Carving

A snowHead

Just back from an awesome week in 3V with a group of German skiers including some great instructors.

I learned a new (to me) way of carving turns. I used to carve by moving my weight to one side and rolling the skis onto their edges and just leaning into the turn.

The German guy's 'step carving' technique involes pushing the inside ski forward up to 6" ahead of the outside ski and leaning forward onto it. I estimate that pressure was approx 50:50 but it somehow felt more stable than my old carving technique.
I've always found that my inside foot moves forwards during turns of all kinds but haven't thought of deliberately pushing it forwards at the start of the turn.

How does everyone else carve turns?

A snowHead

It's very similar to skating as you go forward from one foot to the next. I've been trying to get my wife to start her turns off from the inside foot, as she still has a tendency to start from the outside foot, causing a narrow stem turn. I think the key is to gain the confidence to topple over onto the inside ski at the start of the turn. If you do this, the inside ski naturally moves ahead of the outside ski. You can also turn with a much tighter radius than by simply rolling the skis on edge. I only use the simple rolling technique on long fast lazy turns on easy slopes.

I'm not an instructor by the way, just an experienced recreational skier.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

hellfiresliding, Interesting - I hope you asked them for their "Carte Professionelle" - otherwise they were teaching you on the black which they do here too - bl**dy annoying! OK rant over, I'm not 100% clear from your description - I'll have to try it out and see what you mean.

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Sounds like pushing the inside ski forward a bit serves to straighten the outside leg and bend the inside. You'll see what I mean if you stand, feet hip width apart, ankles flexed. Now in order to push one foot (say left foot is inside foot) forward and to lean over it (i.e. to keep the inside ankle flexed) you need to push off the outside foot, so outside (right) leg tenses up and straightens with weight on ball of foot.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Read, Telemark turns.

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hellfiresliding,
How did you carve previously?
I try to avoid 'scissoring'. The skis work much better if you keep your feet side by side rather than pushing the inside foot forwards. The tip of the downhill ski will be overloaded, causing the tail of the ski to breakaway. Much better to be centred over both skis, along their entire length.
Allow your uphill leg to soften, tilting the skis onto their edges, allow the hip to drop to the inside of the turn, feet side by side.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

SZK, reverse telemark, surely?

After all it is free

comprex, Moving the inside, uphill ski forward........................................ Puzzled

hellfiresliding, have a look here. Your description sure sounds like someone having to to overcome a stiff uphill boot.

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Oh dear gawd. This is so wrong on so many levels.

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The 'step' part felt very strange to start with but we very quickly got used to it. I'm wondering if it helps to start you leaning into the turn and to keep your weight forwards.
Anyway, it seemed to work well in conditions which I had previously found 'challenging' with other carving techniques.
Hoping to get another week on the slopes before the end of the season so will try it again and see what happens.

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uktrailmonster, ....Come to think of it...you're right it did feel a bit like ice skating......in a good way of course.

veeeight, Do you think it's the old scissor step turn? Not at all sure. The germans aren't in the "eurozone" so their instructors are not officially allowed to teach here anyway without equivalence as their system isn't considered up to snuff! I'm not clear if it's the new inside ski or the old inside ski.

However hellfiresliding, did enjoy the lessons and thinks s/he learnt something useful so .....

You know it makes sense.

easiski,
I think hellfiresliding, was possibly changing edges by stepping straight onto the new edge, rather than rolling from old to new. Then pushing the inside ski forwards.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Anyone here old enough to remember Shari Lewis & Lamb Chop? Were you as freaked out as I was watching that video?

Shudder...

A snowHead

easiski, not at all sure from that description. But I certainly don't advocate any advancement of the inside ski 6".

Even in a white pass turn the movement is lateral, as opposed to forward.

A snowHead

See this link below. Every single one of them has the inside ski considerably forward at the start of the turn.
At the start of the transition into the next turn the skis become level again, then they skate forward again with the new inside foot into the next turn. That's pretty much the technique I often use anyway, although I was never conscious of it until someone pointed it out. Phil Smith refers to the skating analogy in one of his videos too.

veeeight, I'm interested in why you think this is so wrong?

http://skiracingphotos.com/event_photos.php?ID=57&GID=1

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

NickB, Remember Lambchop?? I knitted one for my kid sister, 10 years my junior! Laughing

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uktrailmonster, but that's racing where I think "perfect" technique often doesn't apply - what works at any given moment is more important!

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Are the skiers in that link actually leading with their inside leg, or does it look like they are because they are angulated quite a lot?

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In those pictures the inside ski does lead, but it's a result of the racers hip roation rather than the prime function of the move.

I understand that some racers are now trying to pull the inside ski back as this results in more pressure being placed on the inside ski, not less, I had a try at this on my last trip and it seems to do that.

But what do I know Confused

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After all it is free

comprex, I don't think they're trying to pull it back behind the hip, just enough to reduce the ammount of lead. Hips and knees stay as before, so it must be increased ankle flex.

Mosha Marc, you see the problem, then, as the body weight is not available to help flex the boot it must be done by muscle work off the front of the shin. How many can flex a 130-150 boot that way?
Several hundred times a day?

(PS I'll betcha it's the ones not using footrests on the lift)

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comprex, Mmmmm, yes. But how come body weight isn't available, wouldn't it promote more evenly balanced weighting?

Alert - I could be talking bollox at this point.

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veeeight, The italians all tend to have a very big fore/aft split, more than I would personally think that was ideal. the coaches, however don't do it so much, so maybe it's a phase you have to go through to get full carve in a racecourse? However the racers clearly need it to an extent to aid their enormous inside leg flexion. It would be very interesting to hear what jcjc thinks about this - anyone seen him lately?

I am still not clear whether s/he's advancing the old (ie uphill) inside leg or the new (ie downhill) inside leg. what's wrong with rolling from one edge to the other? The stem step turn also involved a pretty big advance but of the uphill (new outside) ski IIRC.

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Mosha Marc,

we had a very good thread on this:

Skiing Myth #3 = 50:50 equal weighting on modern skis, the inside ski is to be controlled at all times, but evenly balanced weighting is only relevant in the transition.

(in fact, I wonder if the coaches in easiski's post might have softer boots than the racers.

comprex, hence judicious use of the word "more", I'm in the "50/50 weighting isn't possible" camp, but agree that the inside ski should be pressured.

You know it makes sense.

Mosha Marc, if you pull the inside ski back -without- dorsiflexing, then you are pressuring it. With all that implies relative to different turn radii of the two skis.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

A snowHead

rob@rar, OTOH if you had an outside anything advance you'd be rotating and that is definitely BAD.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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Tip lead is inevitable when you get high edge angles, pivoting, high inclination, steep terrain etc.

Tip lead should occur as a result of something else (inclination, steep terrain etc) - but should not occur as a deliberate action.

It is impossible to eliminate, but most racers work on managing tip lead (reducing it) - the last thing we want to do is to positively encourage it (as it leads to the hip dropping to the inside of the turn, inside ski dominance etc.)

Sorry.

Here's PSIA Shield Man demonstrating some edging skills, and a simultaneous edge change. Also, as he has no articulated knee joint like us, he's doing an excellent job at managing that tip lead! But he also cannot initiate the edging with his ankles and knees! But it gives you an idea of what edging you skis from arc to arc should look like.

Advancing the inside ski "to carve" works, it lets you get the skis up on edge.

But it brings about a whole host of other problems (as described above) - but most importantly, it only encourages edging of the ski by moving and dropping (countering) the hip in.

Edging should be initiated with the ankles, knees, and then finally, the hip.

Here's a short video by a member of another forum, demonstrating tip lead as a result of inclination.

http://media.putfile.com/Tiplead

So - if you find yourself doing the "shuffle" during skiing...... time to seek an instructor/coach!

Here's Deb Armstrong demonstrating tipping with the toes, managing tip lead with the ankle.

http://www.skitaos.org/skischool/SkiTipVideo021303.php

Just ignore the super wide olympic demonstration stance !!

To summarise: Tip Lead should still happen as a result, not as a deliberite action.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

veeeight, thanks for the PSIA Shield Man gif - I've been looking for that for ages. I've also been trying to find the actual video of him skiing - any clues?

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rob@rar,

As for the link uktrailmonster posted, we could go into ad nauseum about which part of the turn they really are in, but for now, photos are like statistics and you can use them to show whatever you want...... see those below for the amount of non-tip lead these racers are displaying:

http://www.zoom-agence.fr/galerie_photos/alpine06_07/levi_wsl/index.html

http://www.zoom-agence.fr/galerie_photos/alpine06_07/levi_msl/index.html

http://www.zoom-agence.fr/galerie_photos/alpine06_07/wengen_msko/index.html

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

rob@rar, Well, I was always taught, and still hold to that the inside/uphill everything should be slightly ahead. I don't understand anyone advocating advancing the lower/outside leg for the exact reasons so well demonstrated in veeeight,'s first video.

I think that the big tip lead I see a lot in summer with the Italian club skiers is their effort to incline more into the turn and get more edge. As I said before the coaches don't seem to do this, so I think it's a stage they go through. I don't hink the coaches were softer boots - many of them are national team coaches or ex such, most are ex WC or EC racers. The skiing level has to be seen to be believed - if you've never skied in summer, you should!!!!

After all it is free

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uktrailmonster,

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Step Carving

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