 Poster: A snowHead
|
Poor service = tip
Never
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
veeeight, I don't like the US tipping system at all, but recognise that it is the system and that it would be churlish to deny someone a tip that they actually need to make a decent living, just to stand on principle.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| veeeight wrote: |
Just *what* is it with some Brits and their stubborness over this issue? I've just read a reply on another forum, and after all the social customs and etiquettes had been pointed out, with the consequences of not tipping (loss in pay) - he replied:
| Quote: |
| If I receive poor service I do NOT under ANY circumstances offer a tip unless it is completely beyond the control of the person who has directly been responsible for serving me. I don't give a moneky's f**k about what is expected in a particular country I have MY standards and I stick by them. |
From my pov this is just plain ignorance and/or rudeness, it's the equivalent of going to someone else's country and refusing to abide by the local manners, customs, etiquitte. Or is it just me?  |
The forum poster's language may be colourful, but I think he is right. One of the good features of the tipping system is that you can - and should - withhold a tip if service is bad. A tip is an incentive to provide service that is at least satisfactory. Absence of a tip is an appropriate sanction if service is bad, IMHO.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
There's always the simple solution: if you don't like the system, don't go to the region, and don't tell others what they should and shouldn't do!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
Wear The Fox Hat, not clear what you are saying there. Though I have not been to the States for a few years, now, I have been there many times. Tipping is of course widespread, and I have no problem with the concept. But I have never had it suggested to me by friends or colleagues (including US residents) that I should have tipped for bad service. That said, bad service was very rare - so the problem hardly arose.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
achilles, You often get bad service where no tipping is required e.g McDonalds
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
achilles, yes, I agree with you - no one will tell you to tip for bad service, and in cultures where tipping is the norm, you'll find bad service is rare.
I think V8's main problem (and mine too) is with the poster's final comment:
| Quote: |
"I don't give a moneky's f**k about what is expected in a particular country I have MY standards and I stick by them."
|
That's the equivalent of saying: "I'm going to France, I don't speak French, so I'll just shout louder in English. They'll understand if I shout loudly, and slowly."
For me, it's a balance between having your "standards" and respecting the culture you are in. And if you are incapable (as that poster appears to be) of having respect for a particular culture, then it would be better for him, and for others, if he didn't go to that culture, where he would be an embarrassment to England!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
I don't give a moneky's f**k about what is expected in a particular country I have MY standards and I stick by them.
|
That's the phrase I have a problem with. In this case, why be selective about tipping? Where do you draw the line about which social custom or etiquette you shouldn't give a f**k about?
So, because we in the west blow our noses into hankies, does that me that we should go to Japan and blow our noses into hankies?
Or pass food with out left hand in Muslim couuntries just because we don't have that taboo in the UK?
Pat children on the head in Thailand, as we in the UK don't have an issue with that?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
not followed the thread till now but I'd agree with Cathy and th person quoted, I tip for good servive - not for average service, and definitely not for poor service
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Wear The Fox Hat, and veeeight, OK.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Tue 29-05-07 14:47; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
veeeight, Wear The Fox Hat, i dont think we are arguing with your last points. It seemed to me that we were being asked to tip no matter what the service.
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Tue 29-05-07 14:46; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
Frosty the Snowman, ah, no. I don't think we're arguing about that!
So we all agree on the last point
And we all agree on the first point.
Time for a pint...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Dear Mr F.T. Snowman
I am instructed by my client a leading purveyor of rapidly-delivered ingestible substances and fries that you have made in a public forum a defamatory statement concerning their standard of service which is in fact uniformly of the highest quality.
I am further instructed that my client intends to prosecute to the fullest extent permissible by the law of Texas all persons who make such statements that would tend to detract from its good name. Monetary damages being insufficient remedy my client reserves the right to seek injunctive and equitable relief and execution. Please retract your statement forthwith with a fulsome apology. In case my client deems such insufficiently grovelling please indicate your preferred form of execution [ (greenhouse) gas chamber / lethal injection (salt) ]*
Yours litigiously,
Sue Grabbit-Runne (Ms.)
* delete as applicable
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
Sue Grabitt-Runne, welcome back David.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
Dear Ms (unsurprisingly) Grabitt-Runne, Please advise your client that I can name the time and the place of the appalling service. I would like to add that the service was unfortunately better than the food. Even my children refuse to eat there nowadays.
That said your client is trying hard to improve. There is also an allegation that I rubbished your new fruit smoothies. Innocent M'lud.
In summary: BOG OFF
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| cathy wrote: |
| I guess key here is the beginning of the quote, 'if I receive poor service'. Regardless of the rest of the para, would a N American still tip if they received poor service? |
No.
| nbt wrote: |
| not followed the thread till now but I'd agree with Cathy and th person quoted, I tip for good servive - not for average service, and definitely not for poor service |
So THIS is the REAL issue: tipping for AVERAGE service!
Yes, the custom in the US is such that AVERAGE tips are expected for AVERAGE service!!!
While most people are happy to tip for good service, and there's littel disagreement on withholding tips for poor service, it's the "no tipping for average service" part that got reputation of tourists from non-tipping culture.
Brit's are not the only one with such an reputation. Japaness don't ever tip either.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
In my experience, ski instructors expect a tip - particularly for private lessons. I know my husband thinks a 25 euro tip is proper for a days private lesson
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
erica2004,
my instructors expect no tip .... they just love to have a student that WANTS to learn and improves EVERY year.... big bonus now they have me skiing the whole mountain is they can also ski WHERE they want if not exactly AS they would wish... 
They do quite well with food supplies as tips though.... (home-made cakes and cookies, lunch, coffee, cake etc) and get the bonus of being able to play with lesson start and finish places and I am very easy going re toilet/water etc stops as I know the working conditions they endure... It took me years to train the canadian that coffee breaks are not just allowed but I will WELCOME them and PAY for the coffee... (Ok I like kafi lutz!).... I have tipped - most notably in Canada because I felt it was part of the culture there although I do not tip the same guy a home usually...
It is very difficult to work out WHO to tip when somewhere like the USA...do I tip the doctor? the dentist? the haridresser? the taxi driver? THE LIFTY? etc... quite awkward when you know it is sometimes expected but not really WHEN...
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
Say you were at an end of season do with a internet ski club and had a set of 3 lessons lasting 2 hours each with 5 in the group costing 90E total.
You personally got a lot out of the lessons and thought they really improved your skiing You have already bought the instructor a beer how much would you tip?
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Sun 3-06-07 20:50; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
veeeight,
It looks bloody complicated to me, certainly would put me off going to USA for a holiday
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The problem I have with tipping is that I'm always uncertain in a foreign country what I should tip. how much to tip and whether a tip is expected. I must admit that, I think because in the UK tipping is not the norm, I'm not happy with tipping full stop. The fact that it should be expected for just doing a routine job is, I think, wrong - its not my fault that employers don't pay their employees enough. However, if someone has performed above and beyond their jobs then I think a tip or gratuity is not out of place. This may not be not the PC response on this thread, and I'm sorry if this viewpoint upsets some, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks like this.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Sun 3-06-07 20:54; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
So on a visit across the pond we should all prepare by making ready a fat roll of dollar bills for each day we're going to be there, so that we can peel a few off for each person we encounter as we make our way around. I remember having to do something similar making my way around in India, but somehow it seemed more appropriate there.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
slikedges, I appreciate that sentiment - the States is a modern Western country just like the UK - I'm surprised that tipping appears to be norm there whereas in the UK we largely manage without it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
veeeight,
the people that live in the country need a list that long to decide who to tip? I rest my case that it is a convoluted and confusing non-system!!
I'd prefer our system of paying a living wage to the employee and then tipping only IF YOU WISH TO REWARD GOOD SERVICE!! After all if the tip is compulsory then it makes no difference to include it in the employees wage does it? I'm still forced to pay it... and at least if it is part of the wages I don't have to work out which folks are being paid a pittance on the basis that I'm going to tip them and the IRS is going to tax them even if I don't!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
Megamum, yep, in a country like India where wages are plainly meagre and life plainly hard, I plainly become relatively very wealthy and a little extra, the loss of which I would not notice much, makes a big and welcome difference. Not so in a modern industrialised nation. I've previously expressed the view in keeping with your own that the employer should be responsible for paying to ensure the delivery of normal everyday satisfactory service, and that tipping should be reserved for exceptional uncommonly good service. However I do take aboard laundryman's and veeeight's comments above about it being the system as well as the culture in some parts. Of these I think it is that it is the system that carries the most weight. Tips for average (but not poor) service are unfortunately clearly an integral part of their income for some. Cultural arguments seem to me to carry less weight if they come into conflict with one's own beliefs or values. I'm happy to do as the natives when in Rome but if there is a conflict with my own preferences then it depends on how strongly I feel and how much trouble I'll actually get into if I fail to comply!
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
This is just one big troll thread. It has achieved nothing apart from the prerequisite Canadian/US bashing because "they are wrong and we are right".
If you don't like the way something works, or don't want to understand it, then don't get involved (when choosing your holiday destinations, or when adding useful information to what could have been a good thread)!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Some of you will have an issue with system.
Thats great, so you have 3 choices.
1. Do as the locals do (and tip).
2. Do something about the system and change the way the service industry is paid.
3. Put your fingers in your ears and refuse to tip on the basis that you don't agree with the principle of the system.
The choice is entirely yours. But bear in mind that #3 doesn't hurt the "system" at all, but will be an impact to the person(s) who provided you the service.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
The weird thing in all my years is that I have never received any money...which I'm quite glad about as I would be quite embarrassed. But I've had loads and loads of presents:
Multiple bottles of wine
Multiple bottles of champagne
Loads of chocolates
Plants
Flowers
A North Face hat
Toiletries
Candles
Books
Torch
Personalised hand made mug
Hot chocolate sets
Soft toys
Easter eggs
Mobile phone charms
Badges
And the list goes on...
I teach mainly on a dry slope but have done weeks abroad as well so it is a bit different, the weeks on snow have been teaching high school groups. I find it very touching the things I have gathered over the years and really don't expect it. I also love the multiple cards and drawings I get from kids that they have specially made for me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
brian
brian
Guest
|
| veeeight wrote: |
Some of you will have an issue with system.
|
I think it's more likely people will have an issue with the lack of system.
| Quote: |
Thats great, so you have 3 choices.
1. Do as the locals do (and tip).
2. Do something about the system and change the way the service industry is paid.
3. Put your fingers in your ears and refuse to tip on the basis that you don't agree with the principle of the system.
The choice is entirely yours. But bear in mind that #3 doesn't hurt the "system" at all, but will be an impact to the person(s) who provided you the service. |
#3 hurts the system if it makes working conditions unacceptable and causes staff retention problems for the employer. In fact, afaics, #3 is the only thing that could feasibly be used as the "something" in #2.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| Quote: |
I think it's more likely people will have an issue with the lack of system.
|
No, there is a system, one that works extremely well.
If I could be bothered I could draw a correlation between a higher standard of service in a system where the custom is to tip, but as I can't, I'll just draw on my personal experience and observations and say that the standard of service and customer satisfaction (in general) in the UK has a long way to go before it remotely approaches that over the pond.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
Haven't we been all the way round this loop in the preceding pages?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
veeeight,
I can honestly say I have received better service at home in a country that does not have compulsory tipping, than I ever received in the USA or Canada... That goes for both ski instruction and food service.
|
|
|
|
|
|
brian
brian
Guest
|
Interestingly, the closest thing I could find in there to a ski instructor was:
"Swimming lesson instructor - Nothing."
So that's that sorted then, etiquette dictates a big fat zilchio 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
brian,
yeah i had the same thought  and I just KNOW they expect one because I have been told it is customary...
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
Why would you tip the person who shampoos your hair but not the person who cleans your carpet? I wish I'd never looked at the link now 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
holidayloverxx,
that is why I find it so confusing.... I spend the time running around trying to work out if I should tip... or not... in Colorado I was always asking friends if I should tip and how much... had same problem in Canada but no-one to ask...
At home we have to keep telling our visitors from USA NOT to tip such people... they seem to think it is expected and we have to keep getting them to stop it...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| veeeight wrote: |
| If I could be bothered I could draw a correlation between a higher standard of service in a system where the custom is to tip, but as I can't, I'll just draw on my personal experience and observations and say that the standard of service and customer satisfaction (in general) in the UK has a long way to go before it remotely approaches that over the pond. |
Whatever "correlation" you draw, just don't forget to include Japan in the picture!
It does NOT ALLOW tipping. As for standard of service in comparison to UK and US, I'll leave it for others who has traveled in all 3 countries.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I guess you can't really ask someone should you tip them and if so how much? Or can you? The minister seemed to get away with asking his private secretary that sort of question when it came to Christmas presents in Yes Minister.
I was bothered by this tipping ski instructors thing when it came up before the holiday this year. Having not even considered it last year - after all in the UK I wouldn't tip a riding instructor for example. As a compromise and because we seem to get a collective effort across the resort staff - the kids get two different instructors, I have my own different instructor, we get the services of the lady in the hire shop, the boss of the mountain looks after every one and all the lifties help the kids on and off all the lifts - I took 2 or 3 large tins of good quality English biscuits, and a large supply of English Tea and handed them in for sharing at the teaching centre. Do you think that was acceptable?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
