 Poster: A snowHead
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rob@rar,
I actually know someone who knows you personally - we agreed.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| NorthWestFace wrote: |
rob@rar,
I actually know someone who knows you personally - we agreed. |
Care to elaborate? What did you agree on?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Hello everyone,
eventhough I haven't posted a lot of messages yet, I'm already a member for quite some time and check the discussions (about snow reports etc) regularly. I found the link mentioned by kitenski very interesting and immediately checked it. But the first thing I noticed was a big mistake: they mention that the briksdal glacier in Norway is growing.....Unfortunately I have to say this is wrong. I've been there some months ago and the guide told me that indeed in the beginning of the nineties it increased rapidly due to good snowfall. However the last years it decreased heavily (would like to post a picture of that, but don't know how to make an acceptable picture size to post here....anyone help me with that?) and probably I've been one of the last climbers on this glacier, since they think that from next year on it won't be possible to climb it anymore...... That's impressive. Anyways, I don't know whether this is due to global warming or natural cycle or whatever (discussion i can't hold, since i'm not an expert), but it strikes me that the webpage author constantly claims that he has proof by scientists for his statements, but is not able to actually check whether all these glaciers are growing or not....
Back to the property/doom scenario discussion (interesting points mentioned by the way)
and lets hope for a good snowfall since I like green mountains, but certainly white ones as well;-)
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
I think it might be time to sell up before the French Alps Property Bubble bursts!
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I don't think that will be any time soon. The Alps are a nice place to live year round, many resorts have diversified and are very busy in the summer. Changing weather patterns are going to continue to be a challenge, but just because of a late start to this season does not correlate with a total collapse of the ski industry.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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doctoressie - if you go to the Snowbase menu (at the bottom right of the mountain picture at the top of the page) you'll see snowMediaZone.
Hit that and you'll have to sign-up specifically for that - using the same details is ok.
You'll now be able to upload photos.
When you've uploaded, click on the picture and it'll bring up the photo and, underneath, will be a section that says "BB Code" - copy and paste that into a post.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Ooff, these pictures are big now, cant i make them a little smaller?
Edit: done  Thanks for your help Fenlandskier
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Mon 4-12-06 13:30; edited 2 times in total
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doctoressie, you want the link for Linked Thumbnail rather than BB Code, it should then look like this:
| Code: |
[url=http://www.snowmediazone.com/the_zone/showphoto.php/photo/4889][img]http://www.snowmediazone.com/the_zone/data/500/thumbs/DSCF2194.JPG[/img][/url] |
That will then put the thumbnail image in as a link to the fullsize version.
If you click on the scissors  on the right hand side of your post you can go back and edit the link.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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NorthWestFace, Have you had a seriously bad day and as a result become seriously non-medically depressed?
What made you bring this subject up?
You brought this subject up at the beginning of December, a month when (I've recently been learning myself) the snow season is only really beginning for the most part... hence why Easiski and the like started talking about their experiences on seasonal beginnings and endings.
Your question about the relevance of their posts - well, I think the fact that they've been skiing for so long, kinda has some relevance - try ALOT!
NorthWestFace, Of course there are going to be fluctuations in seasons, and the weather conditions etc - why wouldn't there be? I mean, if each year was exactly the same as the last, what fun would that be? It'd be incredibly dull and boring. God, the creator of the world (let's not get into a God Vs Big Bang debate here) isn't a boring God, if he was, he wouldn't have created you.
So my point is just as others have said, sometimes snow doesn't come until "later than we think is usual" and sometimes it comes "Earlier than we think is usual". So just because we hear all the hype in the media about "Global Warming" what's to say that in a few years they may be saying that it's becoming colder and colder?
My understanding / belief / what ever you want to call it, is that weather is a cyclical thing and sorts it's self out. Again, God, the creator of the world was and is an intelligent God and will have thought about these things...
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doctoressie - that first photo is very funky!
It's also worth hitting the return key before the image - it'll force it over to the left.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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NorthWestFace, I think it ws you who brought up the subject of property.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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last year winter didn't start late or finish early. They year before yes it started late but didn't finish early. They year before that it was a bumper year.
My property is my home, if it all goes pete tong and we end up with no more snow, i'll rent out downstairs to people who live here 24/7, its not a problem to me. I'll still live here
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Helen Beaumont,
whatever you say, yes that's me harping on every day about my property, my guests, my me me my oue me.
i must be boring the hell out of you with it.  think on
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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skinutter,
Very well said, lets hope other's take note 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| NorthWestFace wrote: |
Helen Beaumont,
whatever you say, yes that's me harping on every day about my property, my guests, my me me my oue me.
i must be boring the hell out of you with it. think on |
That post is as inaccurate as it is unpleasant. Normally when people disagree with you do you feel the need to insult them personally?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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The main (BIG) difference this season is that the higher elevation snows (which normally start in Late October & through November) have not materialised.
I go along with alot of what NorthWestFace is saying. Some people do not like to hear it straight , thats fine.
One thing I have heard from a reliable local (manager of a Austrian bank) . It is virtually impossible for lift companys to get any finance from Banks for new infrastructure. I think thats says something 
IMO. In the future ski areas will develop in more snow sure areas ie. Greenland, Parts of Russia , India. Central Republics (Old soviet blocks).
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| stanton wrote: |
| I go along with alot of what NorthWestFace is saying. |
You think that this winter is the "beginning of the end"?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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The winter has cooled in Europe in the last 15 years period. This is real Data:
The map is from spanish expert.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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metalhead132, and if the Atlantic Conveyor packs in it will get even colder.
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here's a picture that prooves the seasons are starting later, and that there is only snow high up (not!). This was taken on the 17th Dec in Les Gets, one of the "lower" resorts.
More pics from the same time period here:
http://gregh.co.uk/albums/morzine06/
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brian
brian
Guest
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| NorthWestFace wrote: |
brian,
"death of the entire ski industry" and when did I say that exactly? "French Alps Property Bubble bursts" is not exactly the death of the entire ski industry is it |
No, but "I really think this is the beginning of the end" is.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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metalhead132, that will please the Euro-sceptics here: the map clearly shows that, from the point of view of winter temperature variation, the British Isles are not part of Europe!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
The real problem will be a collapse in the demand for skiing, rather than difficulties with the 'supply'. So far nobody has indicated that there is an imminent collapse in the numbers of people who wish to ski, in fact the opposite seems to be the case. |
Not exactly a collapse but France reached its peak in skier/days around 1982-85 (Source Sofres & SNTF) and has seen some decline since then compensated for by better management of ski areas, increasing prices ahead of inflation and targetting better paying clients such as the Brits. I can understand Rob's point, he enjoys the mountains not just the skiing but I would have thought that the alpine property market is quite dependent on a number of external factors such as the UK housing market, cheap flights, tax breaks offered by the French government, general economic health, low interest rates. All of these could change. A lot of the development that resorts are making to cope with less snow actually detracts from the summer enjoymen of the ski areas. Some places look like you are hiking in an industrial slag heap.
I personally think the Savoie/Haute-Savoie would suffer a real shock if the UK property market crashed.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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For what its worth, i think the point trying to be made is that we are looking at this type of scenario of late snow in the future. The weather is alot warmer later in november than it used to be. I was in tignes form the 19 - 26 nov and left with temps of +9 in the village at 2100m. As far as i can see at this altitude it should be 9 deg lower. And i doubt very much that 10 years ago it would have been tha case. There is a very real threat facing the european alps which needs to be adressed but there is way too much diversity in opinions- which will lead to massive problems. Snow cannons?? absolutely no point if the temp is too warm. Regardless of the opinions on here, one point is absolutely certain: In future higher snowlines and shorter winters will become reality.
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Nice fishing - presumably everyone has short memories. In the 80s there were sustained periods when there was no snow in most of the Alps by New Year. I distinctly remember one week being bussed everyday by a tour op from Grand Massif to Les Saisies for frankly poor skiing. Now look at what Intrawest are asking for a place in Flaine.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
It is virtually impossible for lift companys to get any finance from Banks for new infrastructure.
I think thats says something |
I'm not sure that's anything new, it's always been difficult. Banks like stability and easily predicted businesses, they
hate doubt and unpredictability. A snowsports are depends entirely on the weather - the ultimate built in
unpredictability - thus it's always been harder for ski areas to unlock funding for infrastructure.
As for the beginning of the end, possibly but not because of lack of snow but because of the "no snow no more"
mindset that is being created by the constant media bombardment on AGW - snow is so symbolic (yet naturally
pretty rare event in the Southern Parts of the UK) and rather a lot of organisations like to abuse the truth with
regards Snowsports to boost their own agenda with no regard to the damage their inflicting on the Snowsports
Industry. It's likely it wont be Global Warming that does in Snowsports, but the perception of global warming.
The other aspect of this is the term Winter Sports. In many ways skiing is more a spring sport and certainly
not an autumn sport! Why are people looking for Snow in Early Dec, November and even October and
whinging about no snow any more, then when there's great conditions in March, April and even sliding in
May they are nowhere to be seen and the slopes deserted!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Helen Beaumont wrote: |
| rob@rar, that's my point, I bought it for the enjoyment, not the money. |
Me too, although I recognise that there's a large ski 'industry' for whom climate change is a real issue. All I'm saying is that the ski industry is not sitting on its hands doing nothing. It will continue to adapt (as it has done over the past 40 years), and will respond to whatever challenges climate change throws at it.
The real problem will be a collapse in the demand for skiing, rather than difficulties with the 'supply'. So far nobody has indicated that there is an imminent collapse in the numbers of people who wish to ski, in fact the opposite seems to be the case.
Argument over? |
To be clear, I never said the ski industry would collapse.
To be sure, the ski industry WILL survive. It will change. It will adapt. Businesses and skiers will chase the snow, wherever it may be. They may go higher or further north. Instead of skiing at 1500m in the Alps, future generations might be in the Himalayas at 3000m.
I, for one, am not predicting the end of skiing. Far from it. But what is clear is that changes are afoot. For example, fewer skidays and more skiers probably mean crowded pistes. Higher-altitude skiing means less pleasant conditions. And so on.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| HARRYMAC2702 wrote: |
| The weather is alot warmer later in november than it used to be. I was in tignes form the 19 - 26 nov and left with temps of +9 in the village at 2100m. As far as i can see at this altitude it should be 9 deg lower. And i doubt very much that 10 years ago it would have been tha case. There is a very real threat facing the european alps which needs to be adressed but there is way too much diversity in opinions- which will lead to massive problems. |
So... here we have a single observation followed by a presumption with no evidence to back it up leading to the conclusion that there is a very real threat! Not exactly scientific.
Not meaning to rag on HARRYMAC2702 here. NorthWestFace is the worst culprit with his classic appeal to ignorance: "I'll make an assertion and just because you can't prove it's wrong, I must be right".
Great stuff!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
In many ways skiing is more a spring sport and certainly
not an autumn sport! Why are people looking for Snow in Early Dec, November and even October and
whinging about no snow any more, then when there's great conditions in March, April and even sliding in
May they are nowhere to be seen and the slopes deserted!
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Quite.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| NorthWestFace wrote: |
It' getting warmer - Northern French Alps has 1600m snow line tomorrow rising to 2200m 24 hrs later.
I really think this is the beginning of the end. I have been skiing for 11 years and have seen a massif difference.
I think it might be time to sell up before the French Alps Property Bubble bursts! |
Yep, prices are about to crash bigtime, Best thing is to sell it to me for £10,000 cash today 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I'd agree that buying a place as a long term investment based soley on ski trade may not be wise.
However, mountains are an attractive place whatever the time of year and plenty to do in terms of Golf, Tennis, cycling (on and off road) and of course walking. Global warming may lead to more people having hols in the mountains as I guess they will be slightly cooler than coast and cities.
Of course no-one investing today is thinking about the long term - they are thinking profit over the next few years when there will still be skiing. If we ever considered the long term, we would have avoided contributing to global warming!
If I had the cash, I'd buy tomorrow.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Arno, with all due respects mine is just an opinion as so is northwestface with indeed no scientific provence. However having spoke to a number skiers-old school!- they all say the same thing and i quote " the first snowfalls are getting later and later every season, i can recall skiing always in late october but now it seems to be always no snow" Now this isnt a made up quote but from a ski instructor who has taught the world over. I have no reason to make anything up but i personaly i find it hard to believe that anyone cant see that we are paying the price for years of abusing our planet. And weather you argue the case facts are facts- the climate is changing and will continue to do so in our lifetime. The property bit though im not interested in so u can sort out for yourselevs!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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NorthWestFace, My post was meant , not to suggest that global warming isn't happening, but to pour a certain amount of scorn on the idea that someone who's ONLY been skiing for 11 years, should have seen all that much. In addition, for a number of recent years, we've had massive amounts of snow in April. We were, in case you didn't notice, having a jolly snowheads ski in Val Thorens at the end of April last year. la Grave (who need a lot of snow since they don't remove any rocks) was open until 8th May in both the last two years. In addition to that many of the high resorts are actually open now - beginning of December before any of the TOs except Crystal have even started work.
Yes - this November has been exceptionally warm, but that is not necessarily indicative of a trend on it's own. Last year and the year before it was very cold in November. I skied the whole mountain on Nov 26 last year, but was still able to ski to 2,100m on opening day last Sat. At Christmas 2003 (I think) it didn't snow AT ALL in the autumn, but it was cold so we had artificial snow and floodlit skiing .... What I'm saying is: your experience is not sufficient to be going around making such outrageous statements as you did.
three or four years ago I skied down to my flat at the end of October (now this is unusual), this year and last we were stuck with the august skiing. This does not mean that the Mondial will stop, or that it isn't possible for us to have really good conditions next year. My Dad can remember a year (1947 I think) when it never snowed one flake in Scotland .. now he's beeing skiing for around 70 years, and thinks it's cyclical ....
As for property - well, if you only bought to make money and not for enjoyment then that's tough - venture capital innit? Most of us who either live or who own in the alps enjoy our properties all year round, regardless of skiing.
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HARRYMAC2702, I don't doubt that the climate is changing. I just don't think that someone with 11 years of occasional visits to the Alps (NorthWestFace) has a great deal of credibility when they pronounce that "it's all over"
I'm willing to give a little bit more weight to your instructor, but there are plenty of people who say that it was all better in the old days with little or no logic to back it up!
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$2 to the £1, loads of "early" snow, no queue jumping by the "natives", service a go go.
I don't own an apartment, i'm not that lucky, but i can choose to follow the snow!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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"oh no its not..." "oh yes it is....."
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Flowers in the Alps as winter waits
Bit of doom and gloom about the warm winter here on the Reuters site today.
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