 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I was wondering why I couldn;t find it in the place someone said it was available
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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bh1, What it should point to is a soddin' big apology on the front page 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Rightly so but I can't see that happening. They're wriggling all the way. 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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This thread was only started a little over 24 hours ago.
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Am I imagining this? A 5 page thread about copyright that was not started by David Goldsmith 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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pistemeister, it would have been 15 by now 
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Hey, I just had an idea! Get some puke green jackets, write "Ski Club Rep" on the back in crayon, hang around lift stations at 9am (ish) and offer a rival repping service. That'll teach 'em to mess with our mate 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Bode Swiller - it's a great idea, but can't we get some nice jackets instead?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Les Arcs Ski Club cast offs anyone?
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PhillipStanton, no, then we wouldn't be accused of "passing off" and that would ruin the fun.
Frosty the Snowman, I've seen them. They might just do the trick and the price is probably about right.
Now, can anyone recommend an instructor who could guarantee to make us ski worse... so we can offer a similar level of enjoyment.
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You know it makes sense.
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instructor? I thought you just needed to go, "I know all the best off-piste round here, follow me chaps!"
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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x7, ideal, what size jacket do you take and where and when do you want to do your stint?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Just an update as I have been out this afternoon. I've been contact by a couple of people unofficially who are on the Ski Club governing board and who are not very pleased with what happened. I've also been contacted by the Ski Club "editorial" department. I won't put their email here (it's probably copyright  ) as it would be bad ettiquette to do so. The situation hasn't been resolved yet but as Hoppo implies (I think) these things maybe take some time.
Yes the bottom left image didn't originally have a attribution mark on it. I added this later. That doesn't affect its status as a copyrighted image.
I did have some Javascript code to make cut-and-pasting a little more difficult. In fact I added this after the Ski Club in particular had copied another article verbatim from the site but dropped it over the summer when I updated all the software running the site. As discussed it is not that effective but perhaps adding a pop-up reminding people about copyright is a good idea.
I realise that in the Internet world it is easy to cut and paste information. All I"m asking is for a bit of responsibility towards people who spend time and money researching stories otherwise ultimately we will all lose out.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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davidof, thanks for the update - I think what you're asking for is absolutely correct, especially coming from such a body as the Ski Club. I hope the situation is resolved satisfactorily.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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davidof, You have a great deal of support both here and on the SCGB's own forum. They are getting some serious stick (deserved IMHO) about their actions.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Let's get back to basics here:
The SCGB didn't "cut and paste"....they STOLE Davids work.
They are not guilty of failing to add a link....they are giulty of THEFT.
Frankly I think David is being far too nice. Given the fact that the SCGB are repeat offenders as far as this kind of THEFT of David's work is concerned he would be 100% within his rights to sue their arrses, and I don't think they would have a legal leg to stand on.
All this talk about internet "morals" etc is a load of baloney...THEFT is THEFT.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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rungsp, No, PROPERTY is THEFT!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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- and politics too
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"Underground, overground, Cut and pasting free
The KGB'ers of Wimbledon Common are we..."
Breaking news, Great Uncle Bulgaria of the KGB announced today that they are now considering changing their name to "The Ski Cut and Paste Club of Great Britain".
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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So what's the difference (in terms of principles) between what happened here (SCGB & davidof), and LeeLau & Active Magazine?
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veeeight, nothing. Just degree of offence, and I think what SCGB have done is worse (and I'm on LeeLau's side too).
SCGB have a history of repeat offences, and PisteHors is Davids life.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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rungsp, Agree with you. I think the significant difference is that Davidof has remained polite and not 'overreacted'.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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LeeLau certainly got het-up, excited even. However I don't think he "overreacted". His personal photos were stolen (not borrowed, not cut and pasted...they were STOLEN).
In Davids case his article, his photos, the whole thing was STOLEN.
If David doesn't yet make a commercial return from PisteHors the time and effort he has put into it has probably got him to the point where that is becoming a distinct possibility.
The SCGB don't owe him an apology...they owe him a cheque for either Damages or a Royalty....and it should be David's choice which one they write.
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In case anyone is interested:
The (or rather a) test for copyright infringement is whether what is copied is a 'substantial part' of the original. A 'substantial part' may be well below 10%; copying a single page of a long novel would very likely be infringement; copying a character's name is unlikely to be.
There is a defence of fair dealing, but this is unlikely to allow people to copy entire articles and bung them on their website.
In addition to copyright, an author may have 'moral rights' in an original work. These may entitle him/her to prevent the work being messed around with, for example pastiched, and IIRC entitle her/him to acknowledgement. Crediting the original author may improve the copier's position very slightly, but it in no way absolves them of infringement. Of course, it may satisfy the copyright owner.
The concept of copyright infringement as theft is dodgy and I would not use the term. Copying a work does not in itself rob the author of anything other than control over where and when it is published (which they are entitled to have). It only robs the author of something tangible if the author could have sold the copy or copies made from the copy. The criminal offence which may be committed when copyright is infringed for commercial purposes is that of copyright infringement, not theft.
veeeight, in principle, nothing. The SCGB appear to have done something similar to what the mag may have done. There are differences, though. SCGB appears to have previous and it seems likely that they copied it themselves and shoved it onto their site; it seems unlikely (but possible) that they bought it in good faith from a 3rd party. On the other hand, one could cut SCGB some moral slack given that they are non profit making, and a bit more if the article in question was available freely to all on piste hors in the same context as it appeared on piste hors. The mag is (presumably) intended to be profit making.
There's no doubt in my mind that copying almost anything from the interweb without permission is copyright infringement, although I would suggest that there are different degrees of moral turpitude in copyright infringement. There's also no doubt in my mind that that if people choose to behave badly (which may not be the case here with SCGB as an organisation) there's very little that anyone, especially an individual, can do about it, except complain. The recording industry, with it's huge resources, is struggling to stop illegal copying; what chance have you or I? A bit of education might help; if people running web sites really don't know that copying other people's web articles and sticking them on their own site without permission is illegal (which I find hard to believe), it's about time they did.
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You know it makes sense.
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| veeeight wrote: |
| So what's the difference (in terms of principles) between what happened here (SCGB & davidof), and LeeLau & Active Magazine? |
Plenty. Active ran the pics as they were delivered as a package of words and pictures from the writer (who got paid). They were run on the assumption that they had been paid for - that's not theft (criminal), that's a genuine mistake (civil). Despite all that, Lee Lau's pics were effectively "stolen" but his huge error was to very publically accuse the wrong individual of theft. If he'd handled things in a more measured and less knee jerk way he would be 100% in the right. Unfortunately his actions have tipped the balance the other way.
SCGB, on the other hand, appear to have blatently ripped off the words and pics and presented it as their own work.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Bode Swiller, but the other difference is that within 2 days of the problem being pointed out, the SCGB had responded. I'm sure if they had persisted to ignore David for weeks, that he too would have got very angry.
I know you have your opinion that Active did nothing wrong, but THEY tipped the balance by their silence. At least the SCGB did the right thing by getting back to the people who complained.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Bode Swiller, I wondered if Active had fallen foul of that sort of third party issue. It is similar to our experience where we used a pic in good faith believing we were licenced to do so. Only later did we discover that the person supplying it to us had not checked his facts or title properly. We ended up paying a few hundred pounds for something that (to us) was worth about £50 at most, but c'est la vie. I agree with your assessment of Lee Lau's actions, but do have sympathy with his position - a cooler head (as displayed by davidof) might have handled it better IMHO.
Wear The Fox Hat, fair point, they should have responded immediately even if only to say they would investigate (which is what we did).
The thing is, even if Active were of innocent intent, and were misled by a 3rd party, I believe they are 'at risk', since they did the publishing, not the 3rd party. They of course can back this off to the 3rd party, and all the lawyers can make money. Or they could all just talk to each other and reach an amicable agreement. Wouldn't be betting too much on that outcome though, at present.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I know that public complaint is rather frowned upon by some at the SCGB, so I wouldn't be surprised if snowHeads' name is mud (again) within those quarters for 'facilitating this outcry'. But, let's face it, it would never have happened had they stuck to the word of their past private assurances to davidof.
It's nice to see a somewhat positive response from the SCGB on this [so far] - perhaps it's a sign that things are changing for the better.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
Bode Swiller, but the other difference is that within 2 days of the problem being pointed out, the SCGB had responded. I'm sure if they had persisted to ignore David for weeks, that he too would have got very angry.
I know you have your opinion that Active did nothing wrong, but THEY tipped the balance by their silence. At least the SCGB did the right thing by getting back to the people who complained. |
My opinion is that Active DID do something wrong but that it was done unwittingly. Lee Lau complained 18 months after the publication came out and gave Altitude Media 3 days to respond "or else". Davidof got SCGB's attention by being taking an appropriate, measured stance. Lee Lau was positively rabid.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
Does that matter?
does snowHeads require anything from it? |
Although the SCGB do rather set themselves up for a bit of ribbing at times, I think (hope) there are few at snowHeads now who regard snowHeads as 'anti-SCGB' per se. However, I know that some within the SCGB administration definitely did believe this and suspect that their views may lag slightly behind public opinion.
No, snowHeads doesn't need SCGB to be nice but I suppose I'd just like to think that general animosity was on the decline 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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[quote="admin"]
| Quote: |
| No, snowHeads doesn't need SCGB to be nice but I suppose I'd just like to think that general animosity was on the decline |
Quite right too.
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AxsMan, I don't question for a moment that the vast majority of SCGB members are fine, fair minded, 'naturally occuring' snow-heads 
However, if a few rather insecure individuals exhibit agressive paranoia when their club is criticised, no matter how just the criticism, it doesn't look good on the club as whole and it might be wise of the administration to address it at some point - esp. if some of those individuals appear to be very close to that administration.
Anyway - that's their concern not ours.
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admin, Absolutely!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I have carefully read all the advice and comments here including those from whom I would dub broadly the "pro ski club" party. I'm not anti ski club. I was very critical at the closure of the forum but have also recommended some of their products and services including Arnie Wilson’s Ski&Board both here and elsewhere.
I take responsibility for starting this thread. What I see is, possibly, a training and communications issue within the club. I'm cross that the person who copied my article didn't understand that this was wrong and that she didn't receive proper training. I appreciate that she is very upset about my and other comments and with what has happened. Well it is not the end of the world, probably a lot of us have made mistakes at work and I don't feel she should become a scapegoat for what is undoubtedly an organisational issue.
Was Snowheads an appropriate forum? Well there is a lot of cross-over between Snowheads and the SkiClub, my main hesitation was that there is also some history.
For me the ideal resolution is that the Ski Club news desk takes a more open, inclusive and civic attitude to other news sources rather than perhaps feeling they are gatekeepers of UK skiing. As some of you have pointed out in the media age we are moving into there is going to an increasing mash up of information… print, tv, web, podcasts, youtube. They offer exciting possibilities but we are in the wild-west pioneer days. There can be benefits to a lot of people from readers to small produces like myself to the bigger boys and girls such as the BBC.
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wow....davidof, you are being so NICE about this. The SCGB should hang their heads in shame.
If it was me there would be a whole different tone to my comments.
Good for you I guess...
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FAQ
