 Poster: A snowHead
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backtomasters, welcome to snowHeads, hope you can spare the time to post here as well. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| easiski wrote: |
| I can see we're going to have lots of very interesting (hopefully on snow) discussions at the EoSB! |
 I thought it was just drinkin' and stuff. You ski and discuss things there too???
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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marc gledhill, Lots of skiing - only a few reprobates!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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easiski, Rotation of the pelvis during a carved racing turn is used to avoid transmitting any extra rotational forces down to the skis. I have seen French trainers using the same drills to encourage this as UK/Canadian and US coaches, so I don't think this is a national thing.
I think the waiststeering idea is a really nice mental model to use to work out how much rotation is needed throughout the turn. This is why I suggested to marc gledhill that he try it as well as think about it between training sessions. It also allows you to fine tune edge angles without needing to change angulation which is great in closed gate combinations.
I don't do it on a flat ski though, I will have another look at the MSR website when I have a faster internet connection to see the dry land exercise.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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rjs, Location: Tignes! 
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rjs, It may be that the article I got varies slightly from the website, (I mnust read the website page and compare) but it definitely appeared to result in a flat ski (foot)and a fair bit of hip rotation. Of course the problem always exists that something that is written/done for racers and perfectly OK at that level, would be a bit unfortunate when practised by a moderate intermediate skier with rotation issues to start with. The dry land exercise was printed off Epic for a particular lady (the first time I'd come across this idea/phrase).
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| Quote: |
I followed the instructions and found that all the movements happened exactly as described. However it does allow/promote a hip rotation, which I don't agree with in any normal circumstances.
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Most folk hear "rotary movement or rotary forces" and immediately visualize the skier twisting about their vertical axis, getting inside ski dominant and breaking their tails loose in uncontrolled pivots. Unfortunately for a concept that is so central in how we bipeds move naturally [rotary movement] the term "rotation" became the single word description of that common error of twisting the upper torso to affect the lower kinetic chain while skiing.
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If we rotate, the turning ski is flat.
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I like this phrase and it is true. If WE, our entire body rotates around its vertical axis, yes indeed, our skis will flatten and the other things I mentioned above will happen. But if we use our core to provide quick rotary forces to our feet the opposite happens, our skis will naturally tip up on edge - easily.
When we walk each step is preceded by a quick but subtle rotary movement of the core muscle units. But when we walk the shoulders rarely get in the act, they stay level, straight and relaxed. Another thing goes on as we walk and that is our hips do not rotate but move along the Sagittal plane. Yet there still are rotary forces being generated by the core to enable us to move forward (or back) and remain in balance as we step from foot to foot.
In WS the "waist" (4 main core muscles units of the "core") create a rotary force that can be transmitted down the kinetic chain to our feet/skis. This allows us to tip our skis on very early edge and obtain a very balanced and stacked posture while promoting very relaxed but dynamic movements while sliding.
My point is that there is a big difference between rotation (as an already existing description of a "bad habit") and rotary movements and rotary forces, especially when used in conjunction with "turning the waist" or in other words, using the core to transmit rotary forces to skis and especially tipped or edged skis. In the later the shoulders, when properly executed, DO NOT rotate and the "outside hip" only "follows" to a minimal degree. A picture is worth a thousand words (sometimes). I'll use ones of me as this won't break any copyright laws. You can find photo examples of this principal at work at the WC level at www.nastar.com/forums and Epic.
Stacked skeletally, long outside half of the body, skis on edge and carving (utilizing one's equipment). Not "Rotated".
My only purpose was to set apart a difference between "being rotated", however one gets there, from utilizing rotary movements, especially from the core. Can this tool be put in the box of a lower level skier? You bet!
Here's a link to a simple progression that might help you folks play with the concept and find the desired results
http://www.modernskiracing.com/MSRPLevel1Handout.pdf
Lastly I know Rick is working on a new piece on WS and all its implications (as "just" another tool in the tool box). That should be up at MSR.com in the coming weeks.
Hope this helps with the discussion and please excuse the intrusion and as I always say - just grist for the mill
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Whoops - again, thanks for the warm welcomes! I'm not used to that 
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Sat 11-11-06 17:10; edited 1 time in total
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| backtomasters wrote: |
| My only purpose was to set apart a difference between "being rotated", however one gets there, from utilizing rotary movements, especially from the core. Can this tool be put in the box of a lower level skier? You bet! |
Amen, Gary! This is one of those areas of confusion, and the mixed and overloaded use of the terminology definitely doesn't help this. Thanks for the contribution (I edited your post so that the images are in-line) and the links. I agree that virtually any skier can benefit from understanding these ideas at some level...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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backtomasters, this is very interesting, so I've printed out the stuff from the website and will compare. I think that what I read before is really quite different from what you're describing here, so lots of food for thought. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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backtomasters, not a lot of counter there. Is that part of the deal?
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| ssh wrote: |
| backtomasters, not a lot of counter there. Is that part of the deal? |
Counter is another tool, it can be used or blended with WS to any degree. And, YES, counter has been de-emphasized a bit with the advent of WS. But to see both used within the context of the same turn check out this thread at Epic, its not an either/or its more a predilection, skier type/build, quickness versus power, on how each is utilized at the highest levels.
http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=44677
Specifically the links in this post
http://forums.epicski.com/showpost.php?p=581537&postcount=46
Here I'm musing about why one is square and the other is using power counter
http://forums.epicski.com/showpost.php?p=582281&postcount=58
The whole thread is interesting.
EDIT; One of the interesting earmarks of advanced WS is moving (advancing) the outside ski through its arc while carving (increases load, tightens radius). This can't be executed from a "Power Hip-Countered" position. Rick will detail this and much more in his upcoming article. Gotta run, wife's getting mad!
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much  on Fri 10-11-06 23:06; edited 2 times in total
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You know it makes sense.
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easiski, I'm still working on standing on one leg and bobbing on a balance cushion in front of the telly hehehe. Seriously tho... I will be attempting a practice session each morning during my jan trip.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Scarpa, Keep it up & well done.
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Poster: A snowHead
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What do you mean 'Well done?'... I keep falling over. Oh... you mean try it without the wine 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I've been standing on mine in the kitchen while cooking the dinner.  , useful for reaching the sink, as I just lean back a bit. Not good with a hot pan in your hands though.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Hello Again! Speaking of balance I just realized the Rick's companion article to his Balance, the Keystone of Skiing was not posted up here. You all might find this a great way to get your season started. My wife and I just skied with Rick in Summit County and went through this progression - its killer and really jump started our season 
Check out The Season Jump Start Progression at http://www.modernskiracing.com/technique_links.php
Here's a related thread at Epic with some Pics of the Summit County (Breckenridge) session
http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=46759
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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So, interestingly (I had already read the thread) all these exercises in Rick's article are almost the exact same exercises I've been making my peeps do for the last couple of years! So many of you will have a sense of "deja-vu". 
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easiski; Brillant Minds
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backtomasters, let's not complete the expression though!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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easiski, For the last several weeks I've been doing some exercising. I was spurred on by Stocky's fitness regime. I've found that my balance has improved. I noticed this when I happened to go to yoga and found that I could now do the tree pose. The basic exercises I that I think have helped are - the lunges, abs exercises, general cardio - just generally being fitter.
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easiski,
i am assured waist steering is on the way.... should not be long.... so you will be able to read the "new and revised edition" very soon i think....
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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little tiger, Link has arrived, but not yet read - really MUST do loads of other things today ...
erica2004, I should think almost any yoga stuff would be helpful, but of course that would largely be static balance wouldn't it? Can't hurt though. the physio is making me stand on a sdquishy on my hurt ankle to strengthen it - amazing how difficult something can be when you have a weakness compared to normal strength. eyes closed is - well - shocking actually. In any case, strong core muscles are vital to good balance (IMO - I'm not a n expert). It's what seems to be missing in many english teenagers - too much time in front of the PC/TV and not enough time climbing trees!
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easiski,
yeah me too.... arrived just when i had not the time to read for a couple of days..... soon....
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You know it makes sense.
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little tiger, I do have the time - if I use it as another excuse NOT to do my accounts and file my tax return for last year - the temptation is great, but I WILL BE GOOD! 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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ah you need my mother - she did my australian tax return  and signed it and banked the cheque into my account.... (ex book keeper cannot help herself and i did give her power of attorney before leaving....)
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Poster: A snowHead
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little tiger, I definitely need a mother when it comes to accounts and tax returns!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Here's the link to the Waist Steering Article now up at ModernSkiRacing.com for those interested/curious.
Modern Ski Racing Technical Articles
Title is "The History & Principles of Waist Steering" by Rick Schnellmann
There is a discussion about Rick's article over at EpicSki
As we contend the "Waist" and its utilization is critical for dynamic balance I thought I'd just post this here instead of starting a new thread (hope that's alright). Feel free to put questions to us here, we will check in from time to time and be glad to participate in any discussion if one develops or jump in at EpicSki.
Regards to all,
The MSR Team
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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ah don't need the glasses this time - thanks Gary
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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backtomasters, Got the article, but haven't had time to study it yet - it's on my bed waiting!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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little tiger, Disski????
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easiski, looking forward to your thoughts and comments! Thanks for inviting us up
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| backtomasters wrote: |
| little tiger, Disski???? |
Good guess.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| backtomasters wrote: |
| little tiger, Disski???? |
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FAQ
