 Poster: A snowHead
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I have been thinking about this.
I have bought many budget airline tickets and sometimes have not used the ticket or not used one half of the ticket.
When you buy the ticket you have to tick a box that basically says no refunds. Im fine with that.
However, if you do not use a ticket shouldnt the airline only keep the actuall price of the flight and not the taxes,fuel charges & airport taxes ?
After all if your not there using these services how can they charge you airport taxes & if your not flying fuel surcharges ?
Shouldnt we be able to claim these charges back? Who,s pocketing this money ?
I,ve probably paid hundreds of Euros in taxes/charges but have not even left my house.
Im interested , any thoughts ?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I think BA refund the taxes on unused tickets; it happens automatically, back to the credit card that booked the tickets. Not sure about the likes of easyjet as never had to cancel a flight with them. If you're not getting the taxes back I think it is the airline that pockets that money - I can't imagine Michael O'Leary volunteering to give that money to HM Treasury if the customer doesn't ask for it back!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I'm not a tax expert but I would guess that there is a HMCE guidance note on this subject. I have a similar situation on Deposits room hire and non arrivals. All are covered in a specific guidance note. If you are concerned check out the HMCE website. www.hmce.gov.uk
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| stanton wrote: |
I have been thinking about this.
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I thought the same as you, it is a "departure tax". However I booked with a budget airline that went bust and it was impossible to get the departure tax back from the administrator.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Good question stanton. As it happens I have just had to cancel a series of flights - 2 of us, London - Nice, Nice - Geneva and Geneva - London. So I have sent them an email asking how they refund monies which they have received on behalf of the tax authorities. Will report back when I get an answer. I suspect that they will give me a refund, reduced by an "administration charge", as large as they can possibly get away with, for each separate passenger journey.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Not sure about easyJet but Ryanair will not give you the airport tax back, that is where they make their money from.
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Why is this in The Piste section?
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achilles
Sorry my fault. I let admin move it to somewhere appropriate.
I wonder if the Airlines pass on these "no show" taxes/charges to the goverment & I wonder if goverment would be interested to find out ??
Its the same over here in The Netherlands but I definitly think something strange is happening here.
For instance the Airline knows you have not shown up for your flight , it also knows your email address (the one you booked with) . So why is there not an automatic refund ?
Seeing they do not charge admin charges for electronic tickets I do not see why they need to charge admin charges for refunds .
As soon as the Cabin door closes the refunds should be automatic.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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stanton, are you talking about cancellations or just no-shows? I've got refunds for cancellations, but I don't think anything for a no-show.
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Hi
There was a question re this subject in the times recently. I am unsure whether it releated to cancelled or no show however you should get the tax back, however they may charge an admin fee.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I was talking about No shows particuarly if you cant make it for some reason. You have tobook another flight.
I do understand that the flights are cheap and there not going to change the tickets etc. Without some penalty.
I recently had this with TapAir (there not even so called Bucket ). So either the Dutch or Portuguesse Goverment , airports operators ,TapAir (fuel surcharge) pocketed my tax & charges even though I did not fly.
I had to book a new flight and bingo the Taxes & charges are pocketed twice 
I expect there is Millions of Taxes,Charges been levied that should be refunded.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I don't see a problem with the airline pocketing the money. If you don't fly, they save some elements of the overall fare (for example, per-passsenger taxes and levies), but not others (for example, the cost of the flight, cabin and ground crews, the fuel to get an empty plane from A to B and landing charges). I guess they utilise the former to keep fares for people who do show up as low as possible. I think people know the risk when they book with a low cost carrier. If they don't like the terms they can book a full economy fare with BA or the like. You pays your money, you takes your choice. It's a wonderful system, free enterprise!
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laundryman, but it's a tax that's supposed to go to the government it's not something that should be retained by the airline.
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You know it makes sense.
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laundryman, if there wasn't to be a refund I'd rather the money went to Gordon Brown than to Mr O'Leary's shareholders 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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rob@rar, for a penny off income tax, sure! 
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Poster: A snowHead
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ben wright, but I think you could also argue that the element of your fare that represents the additional fuel required to bear you and your baggage would go to Shell, so should either be given to them or handed back to the passenger who doesn't show.
All if which is besides the main point: if you don't approve, fine - you have a choice. Other people might like the rock bottom prices.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I can't see the logic of expecting a refund. If the deal is 'you cancel, we keep the cash', that's the deal. If you flew, the airline wouldn't retain everything you pay them (after tax) as profit; why should tax be any different to any other expense which they no longer have because you're not flying? A nice little earner for the airlines, but not illegitimate.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Whilst I don't agree that they should get to keep the "taxes", there is something on the Civil Aviation Authority web site that clearly states that there is nothing in law requiring a refund.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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EasyJet's terms of carriage allow you to reclaim the taxes and other charges less a "reasonable service charge". They don't specify if this is charge is made in respect of each passenger or each booking. I expect you have to call a premium rate line and hold for 20 mins before you can make a claim!
Details here.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Its not just bucket airlines there all at (I think)
I dont expect the actual fare back. Im not arguing that, I except that loss.
Im purely talking about the "extras" Airport Tax,Fuel Surcharges, and whatever else they add on to the the "Actual Fare"
Something for the EU Commision to investigate I think 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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stanton, I think we understood you first time, but I'm not sure that you've understood the responses.
| Quote: |
| Something for the EU Commision to investigate I think |
If you feel safer having other people take your decisions for you.
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stanton, some people, like children, need more rules than others.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| stanton wrote: |
do you folk have a vested interest in the Airline business ?
Please dont tell me you work for a bank |
Are you Kramer? I don't have anything to do with either a bank or an airline except as a customer. Of course, I'm all in favour of airlines refunding as much as possible for cancellations. I just don't see why you expect taxes to be treated differently from other expenses not incurred by the airline as a result of a cancellation.
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Whether or not you turn up for the flight, the airline still gets charged airport tax & ins for every passenger booked on the flight.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Greig, it seems from the useful link provided by ben wright, who reads the easyJet website more carefully than I did, that they do NOT have to pay all the charges. The relevant extract says:
"If after having made a reservation you do not fly with us, whether or not a refund of the Fare is payable you will be entitled to claim a refund of any taxes or charges advised to you and payable by you in accordance with Article 5.2, which as a consequence we have no obligation to pay to any Government or other authority."
I await a reply from easyJet. I am a big easyJet user, and a fan of the airline, but I do hope that the process of getting the refund doesn't involve expensive waiting on their awful customer service (sic) telephone line, which you only ring because some things cannot be done on line, and then have to pay for the privelege of having the automatic system tell you every 30 seconds that you should be using their website!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Ryanair also allow you to claim a refund of taxes (less admin charge) if you don't fly. It has to be claimed in writing within a month.
See clause 4.2.1 here.
No need to call their premium rate number, if Mr O'Leary finds out about this he'll be furious!
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Slow afternoon at work so I thought I'd look at some other airlines' terms and conditions:
Jet2 - they "may" allow you to claim a refund of Air Passenger Duty but their admin fee is an eye-watering £40 per booking.
Flybe - you can claim a refund less a reasonable service charge.
BA - refund less reasonable admin fee.
Then I got bored - although flybe's FAQ on whether you could take a wedding cake on board diverted me for a couple of seconds.
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You know it makes sense.
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ben wright, get back to that contract you're meant to be reviewing. 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| ben wright wrote: |
| flybe's FAQ on whether you could take a wedding cake on board diverted me for a couple of seconds. |
Can you? Why would you want to? Maybe if you were intending to marry in flight.
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Poster: A snowHead
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richmond, you can take your cake in the cabin but your dress (and bridesmaids' dresses) have to go in the hold so the ceremony's going to be a bit casual unless you get married in the airport chapel and have the reception on board.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Er... Fuel surcharges are the airline's way of forcing you to contribute to their running costs. So if you can't get your bum on the seat, you forfiet the seat price including any of the airline's running costs that it's passed on to you as a precondition of them letting you fly.
Taxes, however - I'm not entirely sure who actually owes the tax responsiblity to the Tax man [not to be confused with the mechanics of extracting payment of the same]. Does anyone know for sure (i.e. whether it's a tax of a) the airline, or of b) the passenger)?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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ben wright, no liquids though, so you're stuck with what the airline supplies. No ice cream either.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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You can take sporting ammunition and "munitions of war"  on the plane but only in the hold so the traditional wedding punch-up shouldn't get too out of hand.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Manda, this info on HMR&C's site indicates that the airline is liable for the tax - there's a load of guff about them having to register for APD etc.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| ben wright wrote: |
| richmond but your dress (and bridesmaids' dresses) have to go in the hold |
No dress of mine is going in the hold, and that's that!
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Your dress may have to go in the hold, but they won't let you have address in the hold. They're odd like that.
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[quote="richmond"]
| stanton wrote: |
| Of course, I'm all in favour of airlines refunding as much as possible for cancellations. I just don't see why you expect taxes to be treated differently from other expenses not incurred by the airline as a result of a cancellation. |
[ very good question stanton ]
I would not agree that these taxes are a business cost that are written off, or in this case form part of the business income of the airline. It is a fallacy to say there is a cost - it is a pure windfall profit!. There are various types of taxes, and each is differenty computed. Corporation tax is on profits; VAT is on turnover; National insurance is an employment tax; Now what are these flight taxes based on?. Presumably if you fly you pay x% of the fee or a flat fee ( I do not know the basis of charge which is the first thing one needs to know ). If you do not fly then conversely it is x% of zero which is zero and you are due a refund of the tax as the transaction has not taken place. Corporation tax and VAT are not business expenses but national insurance is. But you would not charge 12.8% on a non-existent employee, would you?.
My view is that these taxes are not a business expense like fuel, advertising, etc... but an appropriation of profits. They are deducted on the baisis that the transaction will happen. So if it does not happen IMV they should be refunded. Under VAT law there are specific regulations on unjust enrichment ( same scenario applies " windfall profit " ) which apply in similar circumstances.
In the circumsatnces of taxes on airline flights we are talking of small ticket items whereas in VAT we can well be talking of millons of pounds of transactions so it is easier for cases to go Europe where a decision is taken whether a case has merit in arguing it as happened in the VAT rule of unjust enrichment. The airlines know they are dealing with small ticket items and can play these rules ( high admin charges, etc.. ) to their advantage in the sure knowledge that a case by punter being taking to the European Commission is extreemely unlikely.
Now if someone is prepared to start a class action and is prepared to pay me a decent fee, I certainly can see merit, based on the VAT precedent, in arguing the case  ( PS - I already have a recent track record of winning against the goverment - cf recent thread re self assessment being retained at 31/01 filing date rather than 31/10 due to ACCA members reps made to govt, they caved in )
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Glad someone is on my side
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FAQ
