 Poster: A snowHead
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I'm hoping to install inserts to my skis for the first time. Internet suggests BF is the original and is superior to QK but a thread on snowheads https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=78010 seems to suggest they are equivalent. Given the thread is 10+ years old, I'm just wondering if things have moved on since then?
Are these inserts compactible with each other? Can I have BF inserts on one pair of skis and QK inserts on the other? Once the inserts are installed, is it just a matter of using a screwdriver to "mount" the binding? Will I need Vibra-tite as well as QK website suggests?
Ideally I'd like to have BF installed but Ski Bartlett (closest reputable ski shop to me - mind you it's not that close) only does QK.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Mon 30-09-24 21:54; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Think there much and such the same, worst case scenario you will have different screws for each type of insert but I would be surprised if that's the case. I use QK.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@freethemind, dunno where you heard that I'd switched from QK to BF as that's not true and I'm still the UK Distributor and leading retailer/installer of QK inserts.
Don't believe what you read on the internet, especially on TGR, re the originators of the inserts. Here's the history:
I first became interested in ski inserts around Nov 09 and did some research*. When searching the internet I found an old TGR thread on the topic, and IIRC there were actually a couple that were a few years older. Lots of people had been contributing ideas for the perfect binding insert and one fellow, Jon Wagner (username jondrums & not the original author of any of these threads) even posted a drawing of an insert suggesting people take it to their local machine shop to see if they couldn't get some made at a reasonable cost. A few people tried but could not find a shop to produce them for a reasonable amount.
Another TGR member, Nick Bosco (username Puder Luder), who, like Jon Wagner, had a strong mechanical engineering background tweaked/combined the various designs to create his own insert (for which there aren't a lot of options if you want to make a special threaded binding insert for snow skis*).
*when doing my research I also discovered two US and international patents exist for threaded inserts, one specific to snow skis. Both were past their term so their claims were in the public domain. That meant that anyone was free to use and profit from the design and cannot re-patent it. Nick's design, which he called Quiver Killer inserts, and Jon Wagner's drawing of his insert plus all the other contributing designs all fell well within those original patents.
Over the course of the 09/10 season Nick did several group buys on TGR for QK inserts which he sold at cost on TGR and Jon Wagner even bought some. Approx 7500 inserts were sold this way.
In the autumn of 2010 Nick formalised his offering in to a legitimate business called Puder Luder LLC to manufacture, distribute and sell Quiver Killer inserts. And obviously the price was increased to cover the overheads, give a retailer margin and to make a profit etc. I signed my UK Distributor Agreement with Nick at the end of Nov 2010 and I've been taking approx 10k inserts per season since then and IIRC they sell over 150k inserts a year.
All of this didn't sit well with Jon Wagner who posted on TGR stuff along the lines of his design had been pinched and that he should be compensated etc. There was a bit of a TGR mob mentality 'pile-on' against Nick at the time by those that didn't know the true background etc. A bit of legal paperwork was exchanged which led to Jon deleting his thread/posts and replacing it with an apology, citing a misunderstanding.
IIRC a year later Jon Wagner launched his own competitor insert called Binding Freedom, which looked identical to the QK insert (ie, both the same stainless steel, same external thread, same rolled internal thread) but with two changes:
1. the BF insert was 8.75mm long compared to the QK at 8.25mm. Not much of a difference but this caused problems on longer footprint bindings (ie frame touring bindings) when mounting on thin carbon skis like Whitedot CL's and DPS Pure's etc.
2. the BF insert included a screwdriver slot across the top which in theory was designed to make to easier to install the insert in the ski. This actually made the insert harder to install (compared to using an M5 bolt with a couple of lock nuts or the QK Pro installation tool) and there were problems with machining burrs from the screwdriver slot encroaching in to the internal thread. However, the actual benefit of this slot is, in the very rare event that some klutz incorrectly installs the insert, then said insert is easy to remove with a screwdriver.
Things then continued for a good number of years with QK and BF inserts being direct competitors to each other but the QK inserts significantly out-sell the BF brand, primarily 'cause they had their distributors/retailers in place first. And then a number of years ago Nick sold Puder Luder LLC/QK to a three other US based guys who renamed the business Quiver Killer LLC. And at the approx the same time Jon sold Binding Freedom to Sun Valley Ski Tools (SVST) in the US who make workshop tools for the winter sports industry.
The new Quiver Killer owners then tweaked the design of their insert to reduce the overall length to 7.75mm so even better in thin skis and they have recently added an Allen Key slot in to the bottom of the insert to ease removal - but like the BF inserts, it's still easier to install them using a machine screw or the Pro tool etc. I've not actually handled any BF inserts for a good few years so I'm unware if they've made any changes to the insert including the length as well as getting a clean edge to the screwdriver slot. SVST have launched a number of DIY installation tools to match those already made by both myself and QK and they work equally as well but boy are they pricey.
So, to summarise, the QK and BF inserts are essentially the same. But if you have a thin ski &/or a larger binding footprint then check the length of the BF insert.
I think that's about it. I'm off to the pub!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Interesting history @spyderjon, and quite some volume sold too.
Wonder if they were originally inspired by something like this https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/154879119535 that have been around for years, at least since the 1980s as camera tripod and commercial studio light stand didn't share the same thread, hence these adapters were common to give versatility across tripod and stands.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@spyderjon, thanks for the useful context as always. Apology I stand corrected. I thought I read somewhere you swapped the offering (I was trying to find that thread but couldn't find it so I was definitely wrong!) Sorry for that wasn't trying to spread rumours!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@freethemind, May I ask, what is the original reason you're considering either?
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@CH2O, I’m hoping to use the same bindings on multiple pairs of skis to save both weight and money 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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ok, so are you trying to find out which one of the inserts weighs less?
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| CH2O wrote: |
| ok, so are you trying to find out which one of the inserts weighs less? |
The weight saving is in not having a second set of bindings to carry. 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@CH2O, it's as @adithorp says it's more for ease of transporting (maybe I could fit in three pair of skis instead of two in my ski carriage  ) rather than for touring. It'd probably be much more effective if I lose a few pounds than having a few grams off those inserts!
I was initially asking if one product was superior to the other but sounds like they are both the same so I'll just go with whatever the ski shop has.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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If you're really looking for a travel solution you could consider a demo binding like the Griffin TCX now that reputable vendors ( and robbing scouser) can supply spare tracks. Also allows for easier resale as purchaser will definitely get a fit.
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You know it makes sense.
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@freethemind, Alpine or Tele? If Tele then the Rotty Freeride is the easiest by far to swap between skis, as it mounts on a plate. If you have Meidjo or 22D then there are plates available too. Not that there are lot of screws retaining the Meidjo... I have both QK on some skis and plates on others, both work well. The plates a little easier to install.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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FAQ
