Ski Club 2.0 Home
Snow Reports
FAQFAQ

Mail for help.Help!!

Log in to snowHeads to make it MUCH better! Registration's totally free, of course, and makes snowHeads easier to use and to understand, gives better searching, filtering etc. as well as access to 'members only' forums, discounts and deals that U don't even know exist as a 'guest' user. (btw. 50,000+ snowHeads already know all this, making snowHeads the biggest, most active community of snow-heads in the UK, so you'll be in good company)..... When you register, you get our free weekly(-ish) snow report by email. It's rather good and not made up by tourist offices (or people that love the tourist office and want to marry it either)... We don't share your email address with anyone and we never send out any of those cheesy 'message from our partners' emails either. Anyway, snowHeads really is MUCH better when you're logged in - not least because you get to post your own messages complaining about things that annoy you like perhaps this banner which, incidentally, disappears when you log in :-)
Username:-
 Password:
Remember me:
👁 durr, I forgot...
Or: Register
(to be a proper snow-head, all official-like!)

Help Understanding 'Ski Routes'

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
The black and white (no pun intended) of off-piste and piste skiing are clear in my mind, but what I am not so clear about are ski routes: in this case I'm talking about runs on a piste map marked with broken red lines that either leave and re-join a piste, or provide an alternate means of descent to a lift.

Are they patrolled and/or avalanche protected, or should they be treated with the same caution as being truly off-piste. This is Austria by-the-way, I don't know if that makes a difference.

Thanks in advance.
snow report
 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@fatboyski, generally they are avalanche controlled (but you do need to check if they are open or not, as many aren't actually be roped off when they're 'closed'), but not patrolled.

However it can and does vary between resorts. The piste maps normally have a definition somewhere in the small print.
snow report
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Espace Killy (Tignes & Val D) for example classify these as "naturides" - they're Avalanche controlled but not patrolled and not groomed.

Great for some off piste prep!
snow report
 You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
Sometimes call snowcross e.g., http://www.avoriaz.com/en/skiing/freestyle-and-backcountry/snowcross

Any other names for them?
snow report
 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Itineries
latest report
 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
The Arlberg are notorious for having many "ski routes" which are very ill defined. Officially they are "avalanche safe", ungroomed, and not patrolled. THEY LIE, well at least a lot of the time. Some are groomed sometimes, sometimes always groomed as well as being made safe. The Good Ski Guide has pointed out the absurdity of this system for many years. As always if in doubt, don't use them or seek professional guides,advice.
latest report
 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@Old Man Of Lech, is not completely right. It is true that the Arlberg has skiroutes that are groomed 90% of the time.
(Madloch being the most important probably). But skiroutes that are open are always avalanche-safe.
ski holidays
 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@Themasterpiece, I don't think that Avoriaz' "Snowcross" areas are really itineraries.

They're just marked and patrolled pistes that aren't groomed. I.e. what the whole mountain mostly looked like in 1970.

A true itinerary from Avoriaz would be the Col du Fornet into the Vallee de la Manche. No markings, no patrolling, no avalanche control. But it's marked on the piste map and the village runs buses to the bottom of it.


Last edited by After all it is free Go on u know u want to! on Thu 5-11-15 10:46; edited 1 time in total
snow report
 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Verbier states that it does not control its itineraries. They will open and close them according to the danger but officially they do not control them in the same way they control the pistes. In practice they have gazex on Chassoure and bomb from the lift on Gentianes. Many of the routes are also usually solid moguls. But there are markes routes where you can get yourself into serious bother.
ski holidays
 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Austrian skiroutes in Tirol are normally avalanche controlled and marked (not always very clearly) but not patrolled, they will appear on the daily status as open or closed even if there is no signage on the hill. Some also have "freeride areas" which are controlled but have no designated routes just a boundary.
latest report
 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Langerzug:- Sorry if I wasn't clear about the avalanche aspect. As you point out they are generally made safe. By the way that's another great run IE Langerzug! For those in the know! European resorts generally, and the Arlberg in particular would benefit from the American style, Grooming Reports, often posted overnight or early morning, so skiers can see whether the "ski routes", have in fact been groomed.
snow conditions
 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Quote:

Grooming Reports, often posted overnight or early morning, so skiers can see whether the "ski routes", have in fact been groomed.


The 3 valleys do that already and post it via the 3vallees app.
snow conditions
 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@Old Man Of Lech, As a matter of fact, and admittedly quite uniquely so, the Langerzug descent has a grooming report everyday at the basestation of the cablecar. But that is more to advertise a relatively unknown descent! (let's keep it that way Very Happy

For Madloch (and also Zugertobel, though less important) other factors are playing a role, I think:
Both are -on one hand- essential connections, and on the other hand very prone to avalanches (Zugertobel famously so since the death of the brother of our -Dutch- King)
E.g. Zugertobel is very often closed because of avalanche-danger, making the returning on ski to Zug impossible. I think the authorities by using the indication 'ski-route' are also foremostly communicating "this is an important descent, but we cannot always guarantee it is open, or groomed".
Zugertobel is also often open in the morning, but closed in the afternoon, when it is getting warmer. So, the American grooming reports would not work for that.
I also know the complaints about the skiroutes in SkiArlberg. But we should not forget the Arlberg is both geologically and climatologically a rather unique area.


Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much on Thu 5-11-15 13:54; edited 1 time in total
ski holidays
 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@under a new name, Is that the one off the back of the world cup run? Crikey - far too scary for me.
snow conditions
 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Thanks folks.

It would seem the sensible thing to do would be to check specifically on any given day.

Thanks again snowHead
ski holidays
 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@fatboyski, always best to check with piste patrol as some of the routes although open can be dramatically more difficult in bad conditions , e.g. zermatts itineriers are fantastic in fresh snow with a good base , but go from a red difficulty to a serious black in firm icy conditions in early and late season
i have always found the itineraries in austria to be some of the best routes in resort . In ischgl they give you a great intro in to off piste conditions , and in hockfugen the free ride zone is awesome , some of lech's red itineriers are ace fun. St anton is similar to verbier in that the itineriers can be seriously technical
snow conditions
 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Nadenoodlee, No, I was talking about the one off the back of Fornet. Fairly benign as far as the skiing goes, most of it. But you do need to know where to avoid re slips.

Back World Cup, do you mean Crozats? It is also lovely.
snow report
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Langerzug wrote:
@Old Man Of Lech, As a matter of fact, and admittedly quite uniquely so, the Langerzug descent has a grooming report everyday at the basestation of the cablecar. But that is more to advertise a relatively unknown descent! (let's keep it that way Very Happy

For Madloch (and also Zugertobel, though less important) other factors are playing a role, I think:
Both are -on one hand- essential connections, and on the other hand very prone to avalanches (Zugertobel famously so since the death of the brother of our -Dutch- King)
E.g. Zugertobel is very often closed because of avalanche-danger, making the returning on ski to Zug impossible. I think the authorities by using the indication 'ski-route' are also foremostly communicating "this is an important descent, but we cannot always guarantee it is open, or groomed".
Zugertobel is also often open in the morning, but closed in the afternoon, when it is getting warmer. So, the American grooming reports would not work for that.
I also know the complaints about the skiroutes in SkiArlberg. But we should not forget the Arlberg is both geologically and climatologically a rather unique area.


Agree with the bit in bold, they made Happy Valley an itinerary a couple of years ago, think it was when slides had narrowed the width, and rather than close it completely, they made it an itinerary.
ski holidays
 You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
@under a new name, no the Coupe du Mondes run off the top of the Grandes Combes in Avoriaz - back down to Prodains. Theres a snow cross off the back of there too but I don`t knwo fi it goes down to VdlM or just joins at Prodains. Its always been fenced off when i`ve been up there.
ski holidays
 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@Nadenoodlee, yep, that there's Crozats. It's quite avalanche prone + because of the cliffs above + so they're a little sensitive about opening it.
snow conditions
 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
Question:- for any steep slope, how can you guarantee it won't slide in years like last 2 due to buried weak layer, unless at some stage you bash it?
ski holidays
 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
You can't @peanuthead, welcome to skiing
snow report
 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@peanuthead,

DO NOT SKI OFF PISTE!!
snow conditions
 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Then I presume this is why these ski routes are bashed
snow report
 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@peanuthead, i am sure some are bashed at some point , but are usually left alone , but I guess the volume of skiers following a defined route down will also aid the bonding cycle ??
snow report
 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@peanuthead, @Dabber, neither groomng nor skier volume guarantee a slide free slope... there's one in Chatel that gets high skier volume and bashed and slides with surprising frequency...and disturbing results.
ski holidays
 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
under a new name wrote:
there's one in Chatel that gets high skier volume and bashed and slides with surprising frequency...and disturbing results.


Which one is that?
ski holidays
 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@snoozeboy, the one above Poerre au Loup? can never remember names

actually, these days I think it's usually closed
snow report
 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
The St Anton itineraries were originally black runs but were changed when pistes became defined as being bashed, but chiefly they changed (a guide told me) so they could stay open when the conditions might close a piste (for example when rocks were showing through).
ski holidays
 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Sadly the good ski guiide doesn't exist any more, which is a shame, it was an excellent publication. One of the contributors was I believe, our well informed local commentator, Mr Goldsmith snowHead

The replacement 'where to ski and snowboard' does not contain the same level of analysis and the maps are simply reproductions of the illustrative piste maps lacking the comparable plan maps of the much missed GSG Sad
ski holidays
 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@under a new name, youre right of course , but wasnt implying they are guaranteed safe , but skier volume on a defined route would normally go some way to help compact layers . out of interest what is the ground like under the chatel slope , meadow or rock ??
snow conditions
 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@under a new name, that run (go along the ridge from the top of Chaux Fleurie lift) is Rhododendrons and is pretty steep at the top. Yes, often closed though I always thought that was due to thin cover rather than slides (maybe the thin cover is because it all slid off!). Used to be a red on the piste map but now shown as black I think. Just goes to show you can't always trust the colours - I don't think the mountain has changed. It is a nice quiet way down when the main run to Plain Dranse is chopped up and packed with people at the end of the day.
latest report
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@DJL, that's the one. It is quite steep, I had to assist a guest down it once as she'd panicked slightly.
snow report
 You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
@Langerzug,
Quote:

It is true that the Arlberg has skiroutes that are groomed 90% of the time.
(Madloch being the most important probably). But skiroutes that are open are always avalanche-safe.


Apologies for the thread resurrection, but this actually came up on a google search.

I've looked at the online piste map for Lech/Zurs and can't find any information, (on the website there is specific info about the Langerzug saying it's groomed) and I've also emailed the tourist office but had no reply.

Do you know if the above still holds true, that skiroutes that are open are avalanche protected? As it seems that the only way back from Zurs to Lech on skis is the Madloch 173 skiroute?
snow report
 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
under a new name wrote:

A true itinerary from Avoriaz would be the Col du Fornet into the Vallee de la Manche. No markings, no patrolling, no avalanche control. But it's marked on the piste map and the village runs buses to the bottom of it.

I'm pretty sure it's not marked on any piste map, certainly none of the ones I've seen since being here five years ago. I skied it with the boss of the ski school and a couple of his mates under the name of the Vallee des Mines d'or the first year we spent here, then spent ages looking for it again, so I did look quite extensively.

So no, I don't think I'd class it as an itineraire, although as others have pointed out the exact definition of the term, or indeed other terms used in various places and languages, is not consistent.

Ooops, only just spotted the necro-nature of this thread, so of course it's entirely possible that the run concerned was marked on pistemaps at some point in the past.
snow report
 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
mozwold wrote:
@Langerzug,
Quote:

It is true that the Arlberg has skiroutes that are groomed 90% of the time.
(Madloch being the most important probably). But skiroutes that are open are always avalanche-safe.


Apologies for the thread resurrection, but this actually came up on a google search.

I've looked at the online piste map for Lech/Zurs and can't find any information, (on the website there is specific info about the Langerzug saying it's groomed) and I've also emailed the tourist office but had no reply.

Do you know if the above still holds true, that skiroutes that are open are avalanche protected? As it seems that the only way back from Zurs to Lech on skis is the Madloch 173 skiroute?


In Tirol yes, ski routes have to be controlled for avalanche danger and opened/closed on that basis just like pistes. More info here in German on Page 6 (where they say kontrolliert we would say patrolled in English btw, to avoid any confusion): https://www.tirol.gv.at/fileadmin/themen/sport/berg-und-ski/downloads_berg_und_ski/guetesiegel/2022_Pistengu__tesiegel_Bericht.pdf

I'm not sure if that differs on the Vorarlberg side of the Arlberg but I would imagine the rules are the same and I couldn't find a similar document from Vorlarlberg in a quick google search.
snow conditions
 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
peanuthead wrote:
Question:- for any steep slope, how can you guarantee it won't slide in years like last 2 due to buried weak layer, unless at some stage you bash it?
They throw sticks of dynamite at them. Works most of the time, but sometimes doesn't
latest report
 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@Chaletbeauroc, haha nice edit, it's always been a well known route, bit weird when it popped up marked on the piste map, especially as there were no marker poles
snow report
 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
@clarky999, Thanks
snow conditions
 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
I thought broken lines runs are open but not patrolled or prepared.
latest report



Terms and conditions  Privacy Policy