Help Understanding 'Ski Routes'

A snowHead

The black and white (no pun intended) of off-piste and piste skiing are clear in my mind, but what I am not so clear about are ski routes: in this case I'm talking about runs on a piste map marked with broken red lines that either leave and re-join a piste, or provide an alternate means of descent to a lift.

Are they patrolled and/or avalanche protected, or should they be treated with the same caution as being truly off-piste. This is Austria by-the-way, I don't know if that makes a difference.

Thanks in advance.

A snowHead

@fatboyski, generally they are avalanche controlled (but you do need to check if they are open or not, as many aren't actually be roped off when they're 'closed'), but not patrolled.

However it can and does vary between resorts. The piste maps normally have a definition somewhere in the small print.

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Espace Killy (Tignes & Val D) for example classify these as "naturides" - they're Avalanche controlled but not patrolled and not groomed.

Great for some off piste prep!

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Sometimes call snowcross e.g., http://www.avoriaz.com/en/skiing/freestyle-and-backcountry/snowcross

Any other names for them?

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Itineries

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The Arlberg are notorious for having many "ski routes" which are very ill defined. Officially they are "avalanche safe", ungroomed, and not patrolled. THEY LIE, well at least a lot of the time. Some are groomed sometimes, sometimes always groomed as well as being made safe. The Good Ski Guide has pointed out the absurdity of this system for many years. As always if in doubt, don't use them or seek professional guides,advice.

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@Old Man Of Lech, is not completely right. It is true that the Arlberg has skiroutes that are groomed 90% of the time.
(Madloch being the most important probably). But skiroutes that are open are always avalanche-safe.

After all it is free · Last edited by After all it is free on Thu 5-11-15 10:46; edited 1 time in total

@Themasterpiece, I don't think that Avoriaz' "Snowcross" areas are really itineraries.

They're just marked and patrolled pistes that aren't groomed. I.e. what the whole mountain mostly looked like in 1970.

A true itinerary from Avoriaz would be the Col du Fornet into the Vallee de la Manche. No markings, no patrolling, no avalanche control. But it's marked on the piste map and the village runs buses to the bottom of it.

Verbier states that it does not control its itineraries. They will open and close them according to the danger but officially they do not control them in the same way they control the pistes. In practice they have gazex on Chassoure and bomb from the lift on Gentianes. Many of the routes are also usually solid moguls. But there are markes routes where you can get yourself into serious bother.

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Austrian skiroutes in Tirol are normally avalanche controlled and marked (not always very clearly) but not patrolled, they will appear on the daily status as open or closed even if there is no signage on the hill. Some also have "freeride areas" which are controlled but have no designated routes just a boundary.

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Langerzug:- Sorry if I wasn't clear about the avalanche aspect. As you point out they are generally made safe. By the way that's another great run IE Langerzug! For those in the know! European resorts generally, and the Arlberg in particular would benefit from the American style, Grooming Reports, often posted overnight or early morning, so skiers can see whether the "ski routes", have in fact been groomed.

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@Old Man Of Lech, As a matter of fact, and admittedly quite uniquely so, the Langerzug descent has a grooming report everyday at the basestation of the cablecar. But that is more to advertise a relatively unknown descent! (let's keep it that way Very Happy

For Madloch (and also Zugertobel, though less important) other factors are playing a role, I think:
Both are -on one hand- essential connections, and on the other hand very prone to avalanches (Zugertobel famously so since the death of the brother of our -Dutch- King)
E.g. Zugertobel is very often closed because of avalanche-danger, making the returning on ski to Zug impossible. I think the authorities by using the indication 'ski-route' are also foremostly communicating "this is an important descent, but we cannot always guarantee it is open, or groomed".
Zugertobel is also often open in the morning, but closed in the afternoon, when it is getting warmer. So, the American grooming reports would not work for that.
I also know the complaints about the skiroutes in SkiArlberg. But we should not forget the Arlberg is both geologically and climatologically a rather unique area.

You know it makes sense.

@under a new name, Is that the one off the back of the world cup run? Crikey - far too scary for me.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Thanks folks.

It would seem the sensible thing to do would be to check specifically on any given day.

Thanks again snowHead

A snowHead

@fatboyski, always best to check with piste patrol as some of the routes although open can be dramatically more difficult in bad conditions , e.g. zermatts itineriers are fantastic in fresh snow with a good base , but go from a red difficulty to a serious black in firm icy conditions in early and late season
i have always found the itineraries in austria to be some of the best routes in resort . In ischgl they give you a great intro in to off piste conditions , and in hockfugen the free ride zone is awesome , some of lech's red itineriers are ace fun. St anton is similar to verbier in that the itineriers can be seriously technical

A snowHead

@Nadenoodlee, No, I was talking about the one off the back of Fornet. Fairly benign as far as the skiing goes, most of it. But you do need to know where to avoid re slips.

Back World Cup, do you mean Crozats? It is also lovely.

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@under a new name, no the Coupe du Mondes run off the top of the Grandes Combes in Avoriaz - back down to Prodains. Theres a snow cross off the back of there too but I don`t knwo fi it goes down to VdlM or just joins at Prodains. Its always been fenced off when i`ve been up there.

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@Nadenoodlee, yep, that there's Crozats. It's quite avalanche prone + because of the cliffs above + so they're a little sensitive about opening it.

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Question:- for any steep slope, how can you guarantee it won't slide in years like last 2 due to buried weak layer, unless at some stage you bash it?

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You can't @peanuthead, welcome to skiing

After all it is free

@peanuthead,

DO NOT SKI OFF PISTE!!

Then I presume this is why these ski routes are bashed

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@peanuthead, i am sure some are bashed at some point , but are usually left alone , but I guess the volume of skiers following a defined route down will also aid the bonding cycle ??

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@peanuthead, @Dabber, neither groomng nor skier volume guarantee a slide free slope... there's one in Chatel that gets high skier volume and bashed and slides with surprising frequency...and disturbing results.

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@snoozeboy, the one above Poerre au Loup? can never remember names

actually, these days I think it's usually closed

You know it makes sense.

The St Anton itineraries were originally black runs but were changed when pistes became defined as being bashed, but chiefly they changed (a guide told me) so they could stay open when the conditions might close a piste (for example when rocks were showing through).

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Sadly the good ski guiide doesn't exist any more, which is a shame, it was an excellent publication. One of the contributors was I believe, our well informed local commentator, Mr Goldsmith snowHead

The replacement 'where to ski and snowboard' does not contain the same level of analysis and the maps are simply reproductions of the illustrative piste maps lacking the comparable plan maps of the much missed GSG Sad

A snowHead

@under a new name, youre right of course , but wasnt implying they are guaranteed safe , but skier volume on a defined route would normally go some way to help compact layers . out of interest what is the ground like under the chatel slope , meadow or rock ??

A snowHead

@under a new name, that run (go along the ridge from the top of Chaux Fleurie lift) is Rhododendrons and is pretty steep at the top. Yes, often closed though I always thought that was due to thin cover rather than slides (maybe the thin cover is because it all slid off!). Used to be a red on the piste map but now shown as black I think. Just goes to show you can't always trust the colours - I don't think the mountain has changed. It is a nice quiet way down when the main run to Plain Dranse is chopped up and packed with people at the end of the day.

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@DJL, that's the one. It is quite steep, I had to assist a guest down it once as she'd panicked slightly.

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@Langerzug,

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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

@Chaletbeauroc, haha nice edit, it's always been a well known route, bit weird when it popped up marked on the piste map, especially as there were no marker poles

@clarky999, Thanks

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I thought broken lines runs are open but not patrolled or prepared.

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Help Understanding 'Ski Routes'

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