 Poster: A snowHead
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Strong rumour from inside the company, DPS is circling the drain and has been heading that way the last five years.
I would imagine some of their production runs are complete so there may be some stock clearance if the rumours are true. Any possibility of stock making it over here in that case?
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sat 17-08-24 9:05; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Wouldn't surprise me. They've tried and failed to break out of their well established cult niche with piste ski offerings etc.
Doubt there will be a firesale over here. Usually a big retailer buys the stock as a job lot from the administrator and knocks it out while the brand still has cachet. In that case I'd bet on Sierra Trading Post/ Backcountry.
Anyway vibes to all the dentists who'll be hurting.....
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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They also own the Phantom wax stuff? I wonder how well that did.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| luanb wrote: |
| They also own the Phantom wax stuff? I wonder how well that did. |
I thought Phantom was a product/process from a different sector that they were licensing?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
Wouldn't surprise me. They've tried and failed to break out of their well established cult niche with piste ski offerings etc.
Doubt there will be a firesale over here. Usually a big retailer buys the stock as a job lot from the administrator and knocks it out while the brand still has cachet. In that case I'd bet on Sierra Trading Post/ Backcountry.
Anyway vibes to all the dentists who'll be hurting..... |
Maybe the dentistry journals will be filled with Stockli adverts now.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Thomasski wrote: |
| luanb wrote: |
| They also own the Phantom wax stuff? I wonder how well that did. |
I thought Phantom was a product/process from a different sector that they were licensing? |
I don't know either. I haven't seen anyone else offering something similar so either they own it or they have exclusive license.
I've been thinking about getting it done but have been put off by the up front cost so it may be the case with a lot of people so it may not be making that much for them.
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I’m getting emails about their Dreamtime offering as per normal.
As an early fanboy, they certainly make nice skis but it feels like lots of others are in on the carbon thing now so they aren’t as differentiated as they used to be.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Arno wrote: |
I’m getting emails about their Dreamtime offering as per normal.
As an early fanboy, they certainly make nice skis but it feels like lots of others are in on the carbon thing now so they aren’t as differentiated as they used to be. |
DPS certainly earn their rightful place in ski history.
The Tabla Rasa was a lesser-known sibling of the Voltant Spatula (circa 2005) and K2 Pontoon (2008).
All skis well ahead of the era and innovative.
Also : the DPS Wailer was one of the first 5-point sidecut skis which I ever saw.
Most manufacturers now have something very similar in their line-up.
Blizzard Rustler or Atomic Bents spring to mind and very much based on the same shape.
I guess the obvious problem is we have lived through 10-15 of ski innovation.
Opportunity for obvious innovation has reduced. Carbon is now mainstream.
Powder ski design (shape, rocker, sidecut) is now well established.
Therefore, what can a company like DPS do to justify the premium pricing?
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@horizon, to be fair they do have cheaper lines now, but the cost of a top of the line DPS versus Blizzard (for example) is hard to justify unless you want one of the very niche DPS shapes (now awaits someone popping up to tell me the 138 is way more versatile than you think…)
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Haggis_Trap, good for wealth advertising. Important for some.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
I guess the obvious problem is we have lived through 10-15 of ski innovation.
Opportunity for obvious innovation has reduced. Carbon is now mainstream.
Powder ski design (shape, rocker, sidecut) is now well established.
Therefore, what can a company like DPS do to justify the premium pricing? |
Prompted by @horizon I went to look at the Kaizen - wow $2000+ , then I looked at the Down preseason sale - around £460 , possibly including free bindings. So a quiver of carbon based skis or a single pair?
Acknowledging that down have always positioned at the cheaper DTC end of the spectrum
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Do you think the brand would have a future if they moved all the production to a cutting edge / low cost factory or is the construction just inherently really expensive (aka poor design for manufacturing).
He pricing seems nuts when you think you can buy stocklis hand made in switzerland for a lot less.
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You know it makes sense.
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In 2019 some investment money came in after seeing a high end ski, selling for high end prices, and thought they would like some of that. They bought the company out from underneath Stephen Drake the founder of DPS, the driving passion behind the skis, and the D in DPS (Drake Powder Skis). The lead designer and co-founder Peter Turner is I believe stayed with the company.
After investing their money, they wanted a big return, so vasty over expanded a niche brand, and as mentioned above went head-to-head with other brands who had caught up technology wise. I believe that they also planned to get into the market to produce Military and Tactical Skis, which is a completely new direction.
The other issue is that they adopted a yearly product cycle, with ’new’ features every year. For a discretionary buyer, why buy this years ski, knowing that it will ‘better’ next year, and that DPS are selling you a ski that they know isn’t the best that they can make. Earlier on, skis had 3-5 year product cycles, which made for a wiser investment.
There are plenty of high end brands who have suffered after 2 years of lockdown and the following economic downturn, where discretionary income has been spent elsewhere.
I’ll be sad to see them go, as their skis have given me my best skis memories. Having said that, I’ve 10 year old DPS skis that still ski like new, so they’ll probaby see me out on my skiing career 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Arno wrote: |
| @horizon, to be fair they do have cheaper lines now, but the cost of a top of the line DPS versus Blizzard (for example) is hard to justify unless you want one of the very niche DPS shapes (now awaits someone popping up to tell me the 138 is way more versatile than you think…) |
Actually (owning both) the Lotus 138 is less versatile than you might think, it’s the bizarrely the wider Spoon that is more versatile in my opinion 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Personally I’m glad. All these boutique brands that popped up circa 2000-2010, “made by riders for riders” as a counter culture project against the likes of Salomon and Rossignol. Well guess what, those “riders” grew up, had kids, and found they had bills to pay. The skis they pumped out after became worse than anything Salomon or Rossi ever made and at a higher boutique price. Nice try kids, but reality bites. There’s a new niche now, skis made by dads and husbands for dads and husbands. It would appear the only one that kept to brief and survived are Black Crows. It’s been quite a good “watch” but I am honestly glad to see the backs of many of these idealists hipsters that sold out and became worse than the thing that inspired them to get started in the first place.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| CH2O wrote: |
| Personally I’m glad. All these boutique brands that popped up circa 2000-2010, “made by riders for riders” as a counter culture project against the likes of Salomon and Rossignol. Well guess what, those “riders” grew up, had kids, and found they had bills to pay. The skis they pumped out after became worse than anything Salomon or Rossi ever made and at a higher boutique price. Nice try kids, but reality bites. There’s a new niche now, skis made by dads and husbands for dads and husbands. It would appear the only one that kept to brief and survived are Black Crows. It’s been quite a good “watch” but I am honestly glad to see the backs of many of these idealists hipsters that sold out and became worse than the thing that inspired them to get started in the first place. |
Whitedot seem to be hanging on though I guess it can't be easy. Although I don't think they've ever positioned themselves as "sticking it to the man".
This season I was on a day trip to the Grands Montets and saw a nice old 911 with black crows branding and a bespoke ski rack in the shape of the logo on the back in the car park. Made me smile. I assume it belongs to one of the founders or it would be trying a little too hard!!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| CH2O wrote: |
| Personally I’m glad. All these boutique brands that popped up circa 2000-2010, “made by riders for riders” as a counter culture project against the likes of Salomon and Rossignol. Well guess what, those “riders” grew up, had kids, and found they had bills to pay. The skis they pumped out after became worse than anything Salomon or Rossi ever made and at a higher boutique price. |
Well it forced the big boys to up their game and actually put out skis that keen* skiers actually wanted to buy. The game was up once Blizzard and Nordica started putting out category leading skis. But it's not over. Peak Skis hasn't had much play over here but they are trying really hard to buy their way into the premium ski market based mainly it seems on Bode Miller's# chutzpah and his desire to get his mitts on all the margin in a pair of Elan built $1100 skis.
*Can't think of a better term for people who actually make conscious choices and buy their own kit vs those happy to rent on holiday.
# Historical footnote. Was once a famous fast skier. Seems to have deluded himself that he invented shaped skis and thus is an underappreciated design genius. Also a fan of crowdfund scamming Merikin fanbois.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, Isn't deciding to rent (for whatever reason - and be able to choose what ski to rent) and not buy a conscious choice? 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| CH2O wrote: |
| Personally I’m glad. All these boutique brands that popped up circa 2000-2010, “made by riders for riders” as a counter culture project against the likes of Salomon and Rossignol |
Little difference to the craft beer revolution
However I think you are being a little disrespectful to DPS who deserve their place in ski history. Shane McConkey gets the credit for inventing rockered powder skis. However there is a good case to be made that Stephen Drake / Peter Turner were the real brains behind Volant Spatula & Tabla Rasa - both revolutionary skis for the era.
DPS were much more than just another boutique start up for "bro's" churning out poorly manufactured crap.
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@Haggis_Trap, yes , IMV DPS really did move the needle both on shapes and construction
There were plenty of niche brands that didn’t really add much other than maybe cool top sheet graphics but I wouldn’t lump DPS in with them
I have some Lotus 120 that are great in the right conditions and they have many years of use left in them
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^ yup : Blizzard Rustler, Atomic Bents or Rossi Soul 7s are all basically the same shape as the original DPS Wailer.
5 point side cut with subtle tip / tail rocker and taper. I never owned DPS skis myself : but it would wrong to deny their place in ski design history.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I had a pair of Majesty skis out of Poland for a while. Loved them. And they worked from Brecon Beacons frosted grass to Hokkaido blower powder.
They and the cockroaches would outlast the next bomb drop.
And therein lies the problem.
I felt no need to purchase a new set each season as they were so well made. And that's from someone regularly putting 50+ days on snow each season.
Realistically if a 1-2 week a year skier bought a pair of DPS (or other brand) skis and looked after them, they could easily get 5-10 seasons out of them.
That puts a ski purchase in the same headspace as buying a car for most people.
And in the ski game where manufacturers update their lines annually success and survival is a volume game.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Fri 26-07-24 9:48; edited 1 time in total
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| Mike Pow wrote: |
| ... And in the ski game where manufacturers update their lines annually success and survival is a volume game. |
I suppose that the cost (marketing, manufacture) has to be done in advance, there's an obvious cash flow risk. Which increases with volume.
IMHO you probably need an exceptionally strong product over a period of time to attack the low cost base of the massive established players, which almost never happens. The standard pattern is to innovate, then sell to a big boring company before they steam roller you with their lower costs and bigger marketing budget.
And for entertainment, here's the first reverse cambered skis I saw, Dave in flight late one afternoon in early 2004. We thought they were weird looking things, but they worked well enough. My own dentist [and most guides] prefer something a bit less out there for general use.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| phil_w wrote: |
| Mike Pow wrote: |
| ... And in the ski game where manufacturers update their lines annually success and survival is a volume game. |
I suppose that the cost (marketing, manufacture) has to be done in advance, there's an obvious cash flow risk. Which increases with volume.
IMHO you probably need an exceptionally strong product over a period of time to attack the low cost base of the massive established players, which almost never happens. The standard pattern is to innovate, then sell to a big boring company before they steam roller you with their lower costs and bigger marketing budget.
And for entertainment, here's the first reverse cambered skis I saw, Dave in flight late one afternoon in early 2004. We thought they were weird looking things, but they worked well enough. My own dentist [and most guides] prefer something a bit less out there for general use.
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Coming from the education side of skiing I always find it fascinating that so many skiers are willing & happy to spend thousands of pounds on equipment and amazing skiing experiences only to ski the same movements they've skied forever
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Mike Pow wrote: |
| Coming from the education side of skiing I always find it fascinating that so many skiers are willing & happy to spend thousands of pounds on equipment and amazing skiing experiences only to ski the same movements they've skied forever |
This.
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Assume you mean in the same way not that they all are stubbornly stuck on OG Thunders or whatever?
It's a big investment timewise to breakdown one's skiing and build it up in the manner an instructor may prefer, assuming you even find the trusted instructor to do that with. It really needs to be driven by the individual. If they are happy with the level they are skiing at and having fun experimenting with new ski shapes etc then surely it's their own choice.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Mike Pow wrote: |
| ... Coming from the education side of skiing I always find it fascinating that so many skiers are willing & happy to spend thousands of pounds on equipment and amazing skiing experiences only to ski the same movements they've skied forever |
| dotm wrote: |
| then surely it's their own choice. |
I think he's saying that the choice they make is the fascinating bit, not the fact that they have a choice, which isn't in dispute.
Coming from a different perspective I still find it fascinating. That said, people in these very pages have repeatedly explained to me that not everyone wants to learn the sport. I can't do that. I'm a terrible surfer, with about 60 days practice, but that's ok as I know it's going to take a lot of practice, just like skiing/ snowboarding did. I'll not be buying surfboards until I can ride the damned things. Even on a practical level, I couldn't be bothered lugging the stuff around when I can hire specific gear anywhere I go. Each to their own.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
Assume you mean in the same way not that they all are stubbornly stuck on OG Thunders or whatever?
It's a big investment timewise to breakdown one's skiing and build it up in the manner an instructor may prefer, assuming you even find the trusted instructor to do that with. It really needs to be driven by the individual. If they are happy with the level they are skiing at and having fun experimenting with new ski shapes etc then surely it's their own choice. |
Absolutely
And I've lost count of the number of people I've spoken with and taught (post amazing ski experience trip mind) who wished they'd gotten fitter and better prior to the trip
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Poster: A snowHead
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| phil_w wrote: |
| dotm wrote: |
| then surely it's their own choice. |
I think he's saying that the choice they make is the fascinating bit, not the fact that they have a choice, which isn't in dispute. |
I think that’s right. I absolutely have no sympathy for the argument that everyone should be taking concrete steps to change and improve. But plenty of people do want to change and improve, and experimenting with ski choices is simply an expression of that desire to ski more and better. The fact that people will consider another pair of skis rather than a week’s instruction with a good ski instructor is more a problem with the ski industry (especially instructors and ski schools) than it is a problem with consumers and the choices they make, IMO.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I think it's a game played at different levels. There are sHs doing their own self taught/developed thing at a far higher level than I ski. Mileage and repeated exposure to terrain/opportunities together with a peer group that advances can do a lot. Equally there are sHs who visibly improve week by week with sustained consistent instruction.
I'm aware that the All the gear, no idea stereotype is a real one and that there are people who a) kid themselves that it's only having the wrong skis is the reason they can't slay or b) buy stuff to keep up with the jones of more advanced skiers. At the same time I do believe you can buy a turn if you get skis that are in some way different and you experiment enough with your style to find out how to make them work.
People have always ducked out of instruction at relatively low levels of competence. Equipment now vs 30 years ago makes it possible to still do a lot despite that. That's definitely not a good thing in some places e.g. blue run heroes who convince themselves they are Herman Maier reincarnated as they can sorta tip a ski on edge and hold on in the backseat but in others the harm is less (and I include fat ski neophytes stinking up a nice powder pitch - we were all there once)
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Old territory I suppose.
I think one can't assume that the people with bags full of ski toys but poor ski ability are making an "either / or" choice.
Most of them can likely afford to buy new toys and pay for coaching or instruction. Or even weekly trips to the dry slope (my own route).
With surfing, being a novice surfer isn't much fun as you get tired fast, get pounded mercilessly, and don't catch many waves.
There are two ways that ends up: pig headed people crack it; most give up.
Being useless at skiing is different: it's still fun being bad, so the incentive to improve is less.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| CH2O wrote: |
| Personally I’m glad. All these boutique brands that popped up circa 2000-2010, “made by riders for riders” as a counter culture project against the likes of Salomon and Rossignol. Well guess what, those “riders” grew up, had kids, and found they had bills to pay. The skis they pumped out after became worse than anything Salomon or Rossi ever made and at a higher boutique price. Nice try kids, but reality bites. There’s a new niche now, skis made by dads and husbands for dads and husbands. It would appear the only one that kept to brief and survived are Black Crows. It’s been quite a good “watch” but I am honestly glad to see the backs of many of these idealists hipsters that sold out and became worse than the thing that inspired them to get started in the first place. |
Envy issues very much? See a shrink!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
I think it's a game played at different levels. There are sHs doing their own self taught/developed thing at a far higher level than I ski. Mileage and repeated exposure to terrain/opportunities together with a peer group that advances can do a lot. Equally there are sHs who visibly improve week by week with sustained consistent instruction.
I'm aware that the All the gear, no idea stereotype is a real one and that there are people who a) kid themselves that it's only having the wrong skis is the reason they can't slay or b) buy stuff to keep up with the jones of more advanced skiers. At the same time I do believe you can buy a turn if you get skis that are in some way different and you experiment enough with your style to find out how to make them work.
People have always ducked out of instruction at relatively low levels of competence. Equipment now vs 30 years ago makes it possible to still do a lot despite that. That's definitely not a good thing in some places e.g. blue run heroes who convince themselves they are Herman Maier reincarnated as they can sorta tip a ski on edge and hold on in the backseat but in others the harm is less (and I include fat ski neophytes stinking up a nice powder pitch - we were all there once) |
Agree 100%
I was thinking more about the 'once in a lifetime' cat or heli ski experiences or 'pilgrimages' to the powder 'meccas' around the world over the regular 1-2 week trip to the Alps or N America.
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| phil_w wrote: |
Old territory I suppose.
I think one can't assume that the people with bags full of ski toys but poor ski ability are making an "either / or" choice.
Most of them can likely afford to buy new toys and pay for coaching or instruction. Or even weekly trips to the dry slope (my own route).
With surfing, being a novice surfer isn't much fun as you get tired fast, get pounded mercilessly, and don't catch many waves.
There are two ways that ends up: pig headed people crack it; most give up.
Being useless at skiing is different: it's still fun being bad, so the incentive to improve is less. |
Very true
Your surfing experience was my snowboarding experience. Binned it after one very exhausting & bruising day and went back to skiing.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
re: instruction / coaching: for most people skiing is a recreational and holiday activity.
Those that want to progress will likely do coaching / instruction qualification / race-training <etc> themselves.
Rather than get lessons on holiday. For right or wrong that is just the way it is. |
Agreed
But see my reply above.
Those choosing to go cat or heli skiing or travel half way round the world have progressed in mentality and desire IMHO. Often beyond their physical progression.
I've been there. Can't be the only one.
I went on a ski touring week with Selkirk Mountain Experience out of the Durrand Glacier Lodge in BC, Canada very early in my ski play.
The touring was no problem, and the final day when we go to tour in the high alpine and ski bluebird powder above the treeline was sublime.
The 6 days prior to that confined to skiing laps in the trees below the lodge because of avalanche risk and low visibility was a suffer fest.
But by the end of those 6 days with plenty of instruction and encouragement from the tail guide I'd cracked it and fallen in love with the trees.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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^ True : though skiing has always been a travel / destination sport. Majority of people need to go somewhere that is not "home" simply to participate.
Just travelling to mountains & new locations is where much of the pleasure from skiing originates. I think what has changed is people's desire to do off piste / in powder / back country with lower levels of skill than previously required in days of 200cm straight skis.
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| Mike Pow wrote: |
| ... Those choosing to go cat or heli skiing or travel half way round the world have progressed in mentality and desire IMHO. Often beyond their physical progression.... |
On that, the market has changed a lot over the decades, particularly with changes to equipment. Heli skiing may not exist in practice without those equipment changes; they saved Wiegele's business I believe.
My own philosophy was that I didn't get to even resort snow until I could rip plastic. But that's because I could afford to learn on plastic, but not on snow. If I'd been born rich then I'd just have rented a helicopter like a guy I ride with, and learned that way.
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FAQ
I also got the Dreamtime offer and had in mind the prices of some years ago… told myself “1k after the one-off 300 USD offer isn’t too bad”… and then I looked at the current prices! 
