 Poster: A snowHead
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@boarder2020, My memories of Vail were exactly that - and tbf with the 'controlled' back bowls and overall scale of the ski area its not like there's no other choices should an area be closed. I can remember (stupidly) ducking a few ropes between the pisted runs - the folly of youth.
US lift pass prices (Vail resorts especially) are extreme these days; however I am assuming that safety comes with a price - should Europe not follow suit? (lift prices this season have been hiked for Covid loss not safety IMO)
Get your point re 'grey areas' however looking at the terrain in this instance it looks like 'obvious' lift accessed side country to me; which by its very nature means a whole gamut of experienced / inexperienced skiers will definitely be attempting it throughout the season . . .if this is the case then it should have been better controlled perhaps?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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many snowheads will tell you that "between pistes" and "side of pistes" are safe
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I'm not sure that's true. Rather the reverse. People have commented that being "a little way off piste" is like being "a little bit pregnant".
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Seems that mum, Kate Vokes, was quite a mover and shaker. She was non-exec of Bruntwood, a property company well known in the north west, along with many other important positions. She has an extensive profile on Linkedin.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@altis, relevance.?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@pam w and boarder2020, if we define 'sidecountry' as a route that starts on a piste, ends on a piste, involves no hiking and for at least 75% of the route you could simply traverse back to an open piste if you wished then avalanche wise I think that European sidecountry is probably about as safe as US inbounds. There is an on average approx 1 inbounds avalanche death per year in the US. Excluding the avalanche that this thread is about I can't think off the top of my head of another European sidecountry avalanche fatality. I do think that this one is pretty freak amd that few competent European off piste skiers haven't skied stuff with at least comparable, if not more, on paper risk. Avvy risk level 2 tracked out slope, if that's beyond your risk threshold you can't really go off piste. Without hindsight how many people on here who ski off piste would honestly have backed away from this slope on the basis that a tourer could trigger a slab above them? I wouldn't have.
I also think that the lack of transceivers is a little bit of a red herring. They don't transform a route from being dangerous to being safe, if you get buried even with a transceiver your chance of survival is only around 50%. Increasing that percentage means skiing 1 by 1 from safe spot to safe spot, keeping the safe spots no more than 5 minutes uphill skin between them and having skins in your bag, and preferably being on bindings with a touring function. Most of the time there aren't safe spots at that kind of interval and no one wants to spot that frequently. It's unclear if such safe spots exist where this avalanche occurred. If they don't then we're effectively saying that it is virtually never safe enough to ski the route in question. Yes, ideally they should have had transceivers, but even if they had there is a high chance that at least one of them would still have died.
I have thought about this a lot as I don't like avalanches where I think that I would probably have judged the slope to be safe. The big one on the Lavachet wall in Tignes a few years ago spooked me as well. There are lessons to be heeded about higher up slopes but overall I think that this is pretty freak. People still ski on piste after the on piste avalanche fatalities in Crans Montana a couple of years ago. I would put this in a similar category
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Rambotion:
"I also think that the lack of transceivers is a little bit of a red herring. They don't transform a route from being dangerous to being safe, if you get buried even with a transceiver your chance of survival is only around 50%"
Versus next to 0% without a transceiver...  The instructor was wearing one, was found and survived.
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Contrary to previous reports, it is now thought the guide accompanying the family was not wearing an avalanche beacon. The devices are used to locate those in the snow.
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| red 27 wrote: |
| Contrary to previous reports, it is now thought the guide accompanying the family was not wearing an avalanche beacon. The devices are used to locate those in the snow. |
Noted.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| rambotion wrote: |
@pam w and boarder2020, if we define 'sidecountry' as a route that starts on a piste, ends on a piste, involves no hiking and for at least 75% of the route you could simply traverse back to an open piste if you wished then avalanche wise I think that European sidecountry is probably about as safe as US inbounds. There is an on average approx 1 inbounds avalanche death per year in the US. Excluding the avalanche that this thread is about I can't think off the top of my head of another European sidecountry avalanche fatality. I do think that this one is pretty freak amd that few competent European off piste skiers haven't skied stuff with at least comparable, if not more, on paper risk. Avvy risk level 2 tracked out slope, if that's beyond your risk threshold you can't really go off piste. Without hindsight how many people on here who ski off piste would honestly have backed away from this slope on the basis that a tourer could trigger a slab above them? I wouldn't have.
I also think that the lack of transceivers is a little bit of a red herring. They don't transform a route from being dangerous to being safe, if you get buried even with a transceiver your chance of survival is only around 50%. Increasing that percentage means skiing 1 by 1 from safe spot to safe spot, keeping the safe spots no more than 5 minutes uphill skin between them and having skins in your bag, and preferably being on bindings with a touring function. Most of the time there aren't safe spots at that kind of interval and no one wants to spot that frequently. It's unclear if such safe spots exist where this avalanche occurred. If they don't then we're effectively saying that it is virtually never safe enough to ski the route in question. Yes, ideally they should have had transceivers, but even if they had there is a high chance that at least one of them would still have died.
I have thought about this a lot as I don't like avalanches where I think that I would probably have judged the slope to be safe. The big one on the Lavachet wall in Tignes a few years ago spooked me as well. There are lessons to be heeded about higher up slopes but overall I think that this is pretty freak. People still ski on piste after the on piste avalanche fatalities in Crans Montana a couple of years ago. I would put this in a similar category |
I don’t agree that lack of transceivers is a red herring. I think it speaks to the rigorousness and discipline with which good off piste practices were being deployed.
I also would say that if you don’t consider the risk of steep ground above your line of descent you are not carrying out risk assessment competently. I don’t think you should ever ski under 40 degree terrain and assume you are not exposed to an avalanche - risk 2 or not
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I think @rambotion makes some good and relevant points. The fact that something went so wrong that people were killed is very sad, but it doesn't mean they were taking stupid risks. Whether that particular spot is one where, on an "avalanche 2 day" lots of people would have skied, or whether it quite clearly presented a high risk is one which will no doubt be determined by the enquiry to come. Which - hopefully - will not be leaping to conclusions.
Leaving off piste skiing aside, we have ALL done stuff which, on an "unlucky day" would have ended in tragedy. I do a lot of rather tame cruiser sailing and generally don't wear a life jacket. I always wear a seatbelt in my car, but would be safer if I wear a helmet (as I do skiing and cycling). I am having cataract surgery on Tuesday. It is a routine and effective procedure but 5% of people have complications and 1% have serious complications. My decision to go ahead will not be proved to have been foolhardy if I end up as one of that 1%. You can make a competent and well informed assessment of risk and still end up dead.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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This is an excellent and truly sobering listen. Kudos to Dave Burrows for putting it out.
https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-ski-instructor-podcast/id1451514234?i=1000640081022
Julian's ski school has lost two instructors free skiing in the last three years to avalanches and this episode is a summary of the police investigation report in to the most recent one, in which Joel and his friend Joel, were taken.
This episode covers the the report and also we talk about how modern media glamourises avalanche risk, as well as how social media encourages risk for attention.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I wouldn't define that as side-piste at all. Side piste (for me) is just fresh snow alongside a piste at a similar angle. That's a gully, photos of the search and the video of the crown show its actually pretty steep. It does look like a terrain trap and tricky enough to ski. Wouldn't agree that stuff like that is as safe as inbounds US. My sense of it is that the side-piste I describe *probably* is but I suspect in US they make sure it is.
That said I would personally regard risk 2 as being carte blanche to do whatever I want really, so this just illustrates my naivety.
Also agree with @pam w about the dangers of jumping to conclusions and the hubris of us all, as third parties after the fact, pointing to the mistakes made as almost justifying the outcome. Well worth learning lessons, obviously, but sometimes you just get unlucky also.
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The problem with a numbering system is it hides that 2 is moderate and 3 considerable.
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You know it makes sense.
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BBC reports that the deceased male had a L1 ski instructor qualification (Canada). If so, shouldn't they have been aware of the risks of skiing off piste without a transceiver? At what point does some degree of responsibility pass from the guide to the clients?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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US lift pass prices (Vail resorts especially) are extreme these days;
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Day passes are exceedingly expensive. Epic pass was around £750 for unlimited skiing at numerous world class resorts across north America and resorts in Australia, plus a decent number of free days skiing at resorts across Europe And Japan. Possibly the best value pass in the world of you can make use of it.
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avalanche wise I think that European sidecountry is probably about as safe as US inbounds. There is an on average approx 1 inbounds avalanche death per year in the US
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No it's far more dangerous. As we have seen skiing close to a piste does not necessarily mean safe in Europe. I don't know where the 1 avalanche in bounds USA fatality per year stat comes from, I think it's a lot lower. Also the type of terrain in USA is not comparable to side of piste in Europe so it's hardly a fair comparison.
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I also think that the lack of transceivers is a little bit of a red herring.
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Couldn't disagree more. It says a lot about someone's attitude towards off piste. If you've went out without a transceiver you probably havent checked the avy report, and probably haven't really thought about the terrain too much. I'm sure someone will point out so super experienced solo guide who never wears one - but my experience is most going off piste/out of bounds without avy gear are pretty clueless and have little respect (or understanding) of the potential dangers.
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Increasing that percentage means skiing 1 by 1 from safe spot to safe spot, keeping the safe spots no more than 5 minutes uphill skin between them and having skins in your bag, and preferably being on bindings with a touring function. Most of the time there aren't safe spots at that kind of interval and no one wants to spot that frequently.
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Skiing 1 by 1 should be the standard. There is almost never an excuse for a multiple burial situation. The idea is that if there was to be an avalanche the first person will trigger it, then with each person the risk decreases. Of course this is by no means perfect. But even in the worst case scenario of the last person triggering a slide and those below not being able to rescue them, it is still much better than multiple burials.
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L1 ski instructor qualification (Canada).
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Plenty of L1 instructors have never skied outside a resort boundary where they would need avy gear. I think the avy controlled off piste in Canada gives some a false sense of security, I suspect some don't even realise once they go off piste in Europe it's not controlled.
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At what point does some degree of responsibility pass from the guide to the clients?
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Guide absolutely has responsibility. Taking clients with no gear off piste is nothing but negligence. It's pretty black and white.
I can think of some mountaineering examples where it's more grey. For example clients clearly had inadequate training and experience to be there and guides were under a lot of external pressure to get them to the summit. But this isn't that
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Poster: A snowHead
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The mother turns out to be an extremely wealthy property mogul.
One is well aware that guides have to be careful not to be bullied into doing risky things by wealthy and powerful clients who are not used to being told ‘no’.
Whilst I understand that the French principle is that if you dislodge a stone which hits a person below then you are at fault, it does seem odd to apply the same principle to skiing. If you ski below a slope that is over 30 degrees then you are putting yourself at risk.
Avoid being on or under 30 degree slopes and your transceiver is little more than jewellery.
If you’re on or under such slopes then you’re risking your life and your transceiver is no panacea. Is it really worth it for a few turns?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@James the Last,
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The mother turns out to be an extremely wealthy property mogul.
One is well aware that guides have to be careful not to be bullied into doing risky things by wealthy and powerful clients who are not used to being told ‘no’.
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The juxtaposition of these two paragraphs implies an insinuation on your part that the victim's wealth might have contributed to the events in this case. That is nasty, unwarranted and not backed up by any known facts. Imagine how you would feel reading that if you were a family member or friend, and it's far from impossible that some are snowHeads. Disgusting.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| rambotion wrote: |
I also think that the lack of transceivers is a little bit of a red herring. They don't transform a route from being dangerous to being safe, if you get buried even with a transceiver your chance of survival is only around 50%. Increasing that percentage means skiing 1 by 1 from safe spot to safe spot, keeping the safe spots no more than 5 minutes uphill skin between them and having skins in your bag, and preferably being on bindings with a touring function. Most of the time there aren't safe spots at that kind of interval and no one wants to spot that frequently. It's unclear if such safe spots exist where this avalanche occurred. If they don't then we're effectively saying that it is virtually never safe enough to ski the route in question. Yes, ideally they should have had transceivers, but even if they had there is a high chance that at least one of them would still have died.
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This is missing the point. There can be all sorts of discussions about avi risks, how they might be reduced and what the right balance of those risks is, there is no "right" answer. We can say sadly that there will be more avalanche fatalities this season whatever precautions are taken.
In this case the professional (who was presumably being paid to lead the group in some way, even if he was just tagging along he still has a level of professional responsibility) had safety kit and was pulled out alive the two others who did not died. We cannot know if having transceivers would have saved one or the other but it might have done. It was the responsibility of the professional to ensure his clients were appropriately equipped which he clearly failed to do. If a guide led a party across a glacier and they did not rope up and some of the party fell through a snow bridge into a crevasse what would the view be? Yes I have travelled across glaciers without roping up but that was my choice, no guide would have been part of that.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Hurtle, +1. My first thought when I read it.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Plenty of L1 instructors have never skied outside a resort boundary where they would need avy gear. I think the avy controlled off piste in Canada gives some a false sense of security, I suspect some don't even realise once they go off piste in Europe it's not controlled.
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When we did our Canadian Level 1 in Andorra the Instructor, who was very highly qualified was on his first visit to Andorra, usually teaching at his home resort in Canada. On the second day he started trying to take us down some very nice, well skied "side -country ". He was surprised at some candidates reluctance, until we pointed out to him that it was not avi-controlled, and many people are not insured for skiing off-piste at all. He had just never encountered the European model of security stopping at the piste markers.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
[b]’
The juxtaposition of these two paragraphs implies an insinuation on your part that the victim's wealth might have Disgusting. |
It’s not wealth that’s a risk factor. That’s a disgusting insinuation! It’s the power that often comes with it.
Imbalance of power in a client/employer relationship is an extremely important risk factor to consider. If you’ve never been unfortunate enough to work for somebody who demands “a herd of pink unicorns tomorrow, or else” then you’re very lucky. I suspect that you have though.
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It's been stated in posts above that the professional had safety kit, and also that the guy did NOT have safety kit. Very little is known for sure about this incident except that two people were killed in that avalanche and one person wasn't. That seems pretty clear. The rest, including any surmise about the relationship between them, is conjecture.
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| James the Last wrote: |
| Hurtle wrote: |
[b]’
The juxtaposition of these two paragraphs implies an insinuation on your part that the victim's wealth might have Disgusting. |
It’s not wealth that’s a risk factor. That’s a disgusting insinuation! It’s the power that often comes with it.
Imbalance of power in a client/employer relationship is an extremely important risk factor to consider. If you’ve never been unfortunate enough to work for somebody who demands “a herd of pink unicorns tomorrow, or else” then you’re very lucky. I suspect that you have though. |
Stop digging while you can lad
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| James the Last wrote: |
| Hurtle wrote: |
[b]’
The juxtaposition of these two paragraphs implies an insinuation on your part that the victim's wealth might have Disgusting. |
It’s not wealth that’s a risk factor. That’s a disgusting insinuation! It’s the power that often comes with it.
Imbalance of power in a client/employer relationship is an extremely important risk factor to consider. If you’ve never been unfortunate enough to work for somebody who demands “a herd of pink unicorns tomorrow, or else” then you’re very lucky. I suspect that you have though. |
You have entirely missed the point of my post but, just in case it caused confusion, forgive me for not including the word power in my own post. Doubling down on an unfounded insinuation is particularly clever. Not. And yes, of course most of us have witnessed examples of what you describe, but to imply that's what happened here? As I said, disgusting.
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I’m cautious writing this as it’s putting a lot of emphasis on a reported word, in English, from source reporting in French.
However, I think the key distinction here is between Ski Instructor and Ski Guide. I’ve NEVER had a guide, of any nationality, not check that the group was properly equipped for off-piste skiing. On the other hand, I’ve had plenty of instructors who were happy to tackle some side-piste without checks or, at least not obviously, carrying any avalanche kit themselves.
This is really tragic and my heart goes out to the family but, when I read it, my first thought was ‘Oh no, what a senseless way to die’.
The training and qualifications required to become a guide are, as far as I’m aware, considerably more rigorous than those required to become an instructor and many instructors will rarely or never venture off piste.
So, from my perspective, I’ll choose to trust a guide leading me off-piste but I’ll be much more cautious and make my own mind up if it’s an instructor.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I don't ski off-piste at all now, as I'm old and unfit, but also because I came to it too late and that's because a) I always thought it was a fairly senseless and certainly horrible way to die; and b) because I was reluctant to trust the IQ and in-depth knowledge of what I knew to be the incredibly complicated science of mountaincraft, of an unknown person. As it is, I began and ended my off-piste forays only really trusting two people, Husky Dave and davidof, the latter of whom I've sadly never even had the opportunity to ski with.
But then I'm a cautious type of person!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Blackblade wrote: |
The training and qualifications required to become a guide are, as far as I’m aware, considerably more rigorous than those required to become an instructor and many instructors will rarely or never venture off piste.
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Exactly this point. A lot of people don't realise this and assume that most instructors, even if happy to take people off piste, are not necessarily fully qualified to do so.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Mon 1-01-24 17:08; edited 1 time in total
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| 8611 wrote: |
| I wouldn't define that as side-piste at all. |
That is what I would have thought. It isn't terrain above or even particularly near a piste, where you would imagine there would at least have been assessment of avalanche risk before opening the piste.
I am not an off-piste skier, but I have walked in that area in the summer. I suspect it wouldn't have been that easy even to return to the base of the lift (requires crossing another gully) and the plan might have been to end up within walking distance of it; in the summer there is a footpath running onwards from the pasture with the lift through the wood which those gullies run down into.
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You know it makes sense.
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@holidayloverxx, it’s hard to write a decent obituary on a simple phone with no cut-n-paste and a traditional keypad (press 7777 for ‘s’). Now I’m back on the iPad.
https://uk.linkedin.com/in/kate-vokes-124b525a
As well as at Bruntwood, she had management positions at many charities. Her life touched many people and she will be missed by many. Very sad indeed.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@altis, for those not on linkedin, this BBC piece was quite informative about her charities
BBC News - Family 'heartbroken' after Britons die in avalanche
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67853989
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Poster: A snowHead
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And again, noted that the "guide" who by the sound of it was a friend, was NOT wearing an avalanche beacon.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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This is a tragic event and people don’t know the true circumstances. I was surprised that a guide would have a beep but not insisting the “client” had one.
However, it turns out he didn’t have one and reading between the lines I see that they knew him for many years.
It wouldn’t surprise me that they were all just skiing together as friends rather than being led in a commercial capacity.
Regarding the L1 qualification of the son. It doesn’t mean anything in this situation. L1 by is very nature is an entry level instruction qualification. Eg I’m BASI L1 and I’m crap off piste. Okay I know a beep etc should be taken but so many people I know (snowheads included) go off piste without.
I guess we will all just have to wait to be fully informed. Myself included.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@GlasgowCyclops, it also wouldn't surprise me if "guide" is something being lost in translation along the way....but that's just more speculation
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
| US lift pass prices (Vail resorts especially) are extreme these days; |
Hardly on topic. However skier visits are at an all time high, as everyone who skis will know. Perhaps you've missed some critical thinking?
| rambotion wrote: |
| I also think that the lack of transceivers is a little bit of a red herring. |
Yeah, your whole post is nonsense of this ilk.
You can easily check your claims about patrolled & controlled terrain from the US Avalanche Statistics. Don't forget to double check the footnote which is explained further here. Note also that same source asks you nicely not to use "side country", and also specifically disagrees with your personal definition of it. I'm not sure what world you live in, but it's clearly not the real one.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| pam w wrote: |
| And again, noted that the "guide" who by the sound of it was a friend, was NOT wearing an avalanche beacon. |
I wonder was the guide doing a job as a guide or just skiing as a friend with the group.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Who knows? People here have made up their mind - open and shut case. Thankfully there will be a judicial process to determine the truth.
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| NoMapNoCompass wrote: |
This is an excellent and truly sobering listen. Kudos to Dave Burrows for putting it out.
https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-ski-instructor-podcast/id1451514234?i=1000640081022
Julian's ski school has lost two instructors free skiing in the last three years to avalanches and this episode is a summary of the police investigation report in to the most recent one, in which Joel and his friend Joel, were taken.
This episode covers the the report and also we talk about how modern media glamourises avalanche risk, as well as how social media encourages risk for attention. |
It's quite difficult to get at the salient points from such a huge mass of unedited chit-chat. (Quite a lot of the ski-related podcasts I've listened to could do with some serious editing.) Still, it's worth sticking with it, I think. An upsetting listen, in places. Thanks for posting the link.
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No such thing as side country imo.
Also guide, instructor friend or whatever it’s down to personal responsibility for everyone heading into uncontrolled areas to carry appropriate equipment and insist that other group members are, and to be comfortable that everyone knows what to do to minimise risk and deal with any issues. Whether or not that would have made a difference in this case is probably unknown but that’s a fundamental really
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| NoMapNoCompass wrote: |
This is an excellent and truly sobering listen. Kudos to Dave Burrows for putting it out.
https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-ski-instructor-podcast/id1451514234?i=1000640081022
Julian's ski school has lost two instructors free skiing in the last three years to avalanches and this episode is a summary of the police investigation report in to the most recent one, in which Joel and his friend Joel, were taken.
This episode covers the the report and also we talk about how modern media glamourises avalanche risk, as well as how social media encourages risk for attention. |
It's quite difficult to get at the salient points from such a huge mass of unedited chit-chat. (Quite a lot of the ski-related podcasts I've listened to could do with some serious editing.) Still, it's worth sticking with it, I think. An upsetting listen, in places. Thanks for posting the link. |
Unfortunately I felt the same way and bailed after 20 mins of nothing
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@Mike Pow, I can't say I blame you.
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