 Poster: A snowHead
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
Only the instructor was wearing a transceiver.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| adithorp wrote: |
| Only the instructor was wearing a transceiver. |
. . .and he survived as report states he was found / rescued first. Awful for a family on hols - looking at pics (although I'm not familiar with the resort / area) it looks like fairly innocuous 'side country'.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
@Belch, doesn’t look like innocuous side country I’d venture into at present given weather/ snow conditions. Full depth slides are a problem just now and under that lift , from the map, looks a good place for one to happen. I’m speculating, I’ve not been there this week.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
'The initial theory is that another party of skiers higher up triggered the avalanche.'
Public prosecutors at Bonneville confirmed that a criminal investigation had since been launched, with judicial police investigating on site.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
@Inboard, agree conditions dictate all - surprised guide took them there (esp without avi gear / transceivers) hence my assumption that it was a normally 'safe' off piste zone
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Why would an instructor take someone OP without a beep?
Even in flattish OP places like the dolomites any instructors I’ve had insisted on a beep and shovel. I also had a probe. And I’m crepe off piste.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The Mirror has a seriously injured sledger in it's report of the same.
| Quote: |
It comes as a 19-year-old British student was seriously injured when his sledge travelling at speed crashed into a tree last night. The student is being treated in hospital. It is understood the sledge lost control when a frost formed an icy crust on the snow at Mittelberg, Austria, as the student and five friends hurtled down the unlit slope. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
Darwin award candidate
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Sledging is notorious for causing accidents especially post the usual beer & schnapps in a hut. It can be great fun but also very easy to hit a solid object in the dark! Many moons ago when I did these things the rep ended up refusing to organise said evenings as he spent too many of them in the local hospital with his injured clients!
I too find it difficult to understand why a "qualified" guide or instructor would take clients off piste without the proper kit, it is a very basic precaution. As we all know a slide can happen pretty much anywhere outside of the marked area, so to not take the proper precautions, especially in current conditions, seems to me to be unprofessional to say the least.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
This is simply tragic. Do we yet know if this is mum and son?
Thoughts go out to the immediate family and friends. Cancel the new year's party!
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
As it has been said before - every time I have been off-piste with a guide - the first thing that the guide has checked is whether our avi gear is present and working. That’s even before we get on the lift/start the tour/get in a heli/cat etc… I can’t imagine the thought process going through the guide’s head where he takes a bunch of people off-piste and he is the only one wearing a transceiver… 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@Rogerdodger, it says so in the article
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
Thanks@holidayloverxx, must read more carefully.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| Belch wrote: |
| adithorp wrote: |
| Only the instructor was wearing a transceiver. |
. . .and he survived as report states he was found / rescued first. Awful for a family on hols - looking at pics (although I'm not familiar with the resort / area) it looks like fairly innocuous 'side country'. |
Comparing the area circled in the pictures with fat map a lot of it is 35-45⁰ so closer to high risk rather than innocuous
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
@cheburator, Even when we have done group off-piste with UCPA instructors the first exercise every morning was to check everyone had a tranciever, it was on, and working correctly.
I would imagine that this instructor/guide, if he manages to get away without a criminal conviction will be banned for life from instructing/guiding.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
I wonder if it was an on piste day, and he took them to bit of side country thinking it was safe? Only having a wearing a transceiver on as a routine as some people do.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
@brownie, same rules apply
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
Agree, do see it a lot folk in the side country with no safety kit
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| brownie wrote: |
| Agree, do see it a lot folk in the side country with no safety kit |
In North America it's patrolled and controlled, that's not the case here though.
If you're with a professional then they have some duty of care to you, depending on what precisely you paid them for. I mean: some folk employ instructors for their skiing, but not to guide them around the mountain. It's not uncommon to have a heli group with a private instructor; the instructor's a ski teacher, they don't pick the line etc. We don't know the scenario here, yet. This is reported differently in different reports: guide or instructor?
BASI people: what do your manuals say about taking folk off piste without training or gear? Are you insured for that?
At a resort you need to expect other people to be above you at any point, and you can't rely on their behaviour. I mean: it doesn't matter who kicked it off, the risk is still yours not theirs.
How far is that terrain trap from the piste?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
Having lived in the Alps for nearly 10 years now, I have definitely seen a certain breed of (french) ski instructor being what I would describe as fairly careless/wreckless regarding avalanche safety. Clients off piste with no gear (if you're not wearing a backpack, I guess it's unlikely you're not wearing a tranceiver). Cutting above other skiers, generally being a bit blazee. I suppose the argument of 'they know the mountain and what does/doesn't slide' doesn't really cut it sometimes.
I'm assuming it's an instructor in red, they IME are the biggest culprits.
UCPA in my experience have always been very very good with safety. As have any British guides/instructors.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| phil_w wrote: |
| How far is that terrain trap from the piste? |
You can see a piste in the fatmap screen grab above, it carries on down to the bottom of that chair. There are no pistes to the right of the chair until you get to Cote 2000.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The pisted area is to the left of the chair as you look at that pic, basically off the pic. The area under the chair is regularly skiied as off piste, because the piste from the top of the chair is pretty boring - the off piste is why you would go up it, it's an old, slow (15 minutes?), non-detachable 3 man chair. If you get as far as that gully and over to the right of it, you are definitely off piste, and you would know it because you probably had to dodge netting to get to it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
Simply no excuse for an instructor taking clients off piste without gear. Negligence at the least, possibly even manslaughter (he wouldn't be the first guide to be charged with it). I'm generally against the lawsuit culture, sometimes genuine accidents just happen, guides are not infallible and can take all the reasonable precautions and still end up with a fatality. However, this is inexcusable.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Just on the C4 5.00 news.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| RobinS wrote: |
@cheburator, Even when we have done group off-piste with UCPA instructors the first exercise every morning was to check everyone had a tranciever, it was on, and working correctly.
I would imagine that this instructor/guide, if he manages to get away without a criminal conviction will be banned for life from instructing/guiding. |
Cannot agree more. I think there is a lot more to the story than the Daily Fail report…
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Markhandford wrote: |
| https://pistehors.com/JnzhsYwB1g7SdbHcmekt/two-off-piste-skiers-killed-by-avalanche-at-mont-joly |
Well said by Pistehors, no conjecure, just facts. I patrol on the opposite hill (Rochebrune) and couldn't have given you as much info as Davidof has here
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
The report linked by @Markhandford suggests the avalanche was in the right hand one of the two gulleys to the right of the lift as seen in @adithorp's picture. That is a long way from the piste, and not somewhere there would be avalanche protection since it runs out into a wood far from anywhere.
Last year we met a couple who had spotted a family of wolves there as they went up the chairlift, it really is a remote area.
There will clearly be questions about why they were there without proper equipment. It wasn't just a small detour from the piste, the picture shows how the red run down which starts as a track bends away to the left hand side; the black run from the same lift follows the ridge running left from the top of the lift before taking a much steeper line. Maybe the instructor had foolhardily agreed to a change of plan once the group had seen the terrain from the lift.
It is an avoidable tragedy, and one feels for the victim's family. Some of the reports suggest the whole group consisted of family, and maybe friends.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
Awful tragedy. I'm sure many have taken similar risks at some point in there snow careers, I certainly have
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| RobinS wrote: |
@cheburator, Even when we have done group off-piste with UCPA instructors the first exercise every morning was to check everyone had a tranciever, it was on, and working correctly.
I would imagine that this instructor/guide, if he manages to get away without a criminal conviction will be banned for life from instructing/guiding. |
UCPA are very strict about groups not going off-piste unless everyone has all the proper equipment. It probably goes back to the death of a UCPA trainee instructor in Tignes in 2012. On that occassion, the UCPA instructors and trainee instructors went off-piste without any equipment on their day off after a big dump of snow and set off a massive avalanche. The instructor who was buried did not have a transceiver and they had to organise a massive group search (100+ people) with probes walking up from the bottom of the avalanche. It took 3 hours to find the body of the instructor, by which point they were long dead.
No idea what that instructor was thinking taking his clients there. Can rightly see why the prosecutor wants to throw the book against him.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| alasdair.graham wrote: |
| Awful tragedy. I'm sure many have taken similar risks at some point in there snow careers, I certainly have |
I hope you mean as a punter ..
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
Wet slide or slab avalanche? I'm not in the Alps at the moment but from the blogs I follow would have thought that terrain at 2300m and North West facing was safe from wet slides and not enough recent snow for a slab avalanche. Clearly I'm wrong but would be interested to know why for my own education. The avalanche was relatively late on the day so maybe it did have the sun on it and was a wet slide. If so, that must be a little unusual for late December and I could imagine why the instructor appears to have been blasé about the risk
Condolences to those involved, am awful tragedy
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| holidayloverxx wrote: |
| alasdair.graham wrote: |
| Awful tragedy. I'm sure many have taken similar risks at some point in there snow careers, I certainly have |
I hope you mean as a punter .. |
Yes, personal risks I meant.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| alasdair.graham wrote: |
| holidayloverxx wrote: |
| alasdair.graham wrote: |
| Awful tragedy. I'm sure many have taken similar risks at some point in there snow careers, I certainly have |
I hope you mean as a punter .. |
Yes, personal risks I meant. |
...without risking others, including rescuers?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| rambotion wrote: |
Wet slide or slab avalanche? I'm not in the Alps at the moment but from the blogs I follow would have thought that terrain at 2300m and North West facing was safe from wet slides and not enough recent snow for a slab avalanche. Clearly I'm wrong but would be interested to know why for my own education. The avalanche was relatively late on the day so maybe it did have the sun on it and was a wet slide. If so, that must be a little unusual for late December and I could imagine why the instructor appears to have been blasé about the risk
Condolences to those involved, am awful tragedy |
Have posted on here for many years -- the stats clearly show most Alpine avalanches happen on northerly slopes above 2000m in the afternoon time.
Surprised how few skiers know this.
This avvy looks like a classic of the genre.
NW, 2300m, near 4pm.
Northerly slopes tend to be steeper, rockier, the afternoon "heat" destabilizes the bottom, middle, or top layers by melt, and they slide away more readily.
Never ski a northerly offpiste trail above 2000m after midday.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| holidayloverxx wrote: |
| alasdair.graham wrote: |
| holidayloverxx wrote: |
| alasdair.graham wrote: |
| Awful tragedy. I'm sure many have taken similar risks at some point in there snow careers, I certainly have |
I hope you mean as a punter .. |
Yes, personal risks I meant. |
...without risking others, including rescuers? |
Obviously not, anyone who has ever ventured off piste is potentially risking rescuers.
I have also been in plenty of guided groups where no safety gear has been worn or requested, a long time ago and I wouldnt dream of it now but you do put faith in the professionals you are with at the time. "They know the mountain, wouldnt take us anywhere dangerous" plenty of holidaymakers will still think that way
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I'd not read much into any local legal investigations. If you have fatalities they'll treat it seriously, can't read anything into that until it's all wrapped up.
We don't even know if the party was "being led", or if the instructor was just someone's mate who happened to be riding with them. They all messed up, but the type of mess up is different depending on details we don't know.
The Twitter link shows the crown and they pull the layer (slab) which they seem to be suggesting was the cause of the slide.
| Quote: |
| Obviously not, anyone who has ever ventured off piste is potentially risking rescuers. |
No, the first rule in the book is precisely not to do that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
