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Whose fault?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
The skiway code talks about the person ahead and the overtaking person, so technically not necessarily the downhill skier.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@tarrantd, Agreed. I just noticed one of the 'rules sheet' linked here did specify uphill and downhill skier - "The downhill skier or snowboarder always has the right of way. It’s your responsibility to avoid them."
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
The rules are interpreted on many sites, but this is (or should be) the source of all of them:
https://assets.fis-ski.com/image/upload/v1536910200/fis-prod/assets/en_FIS_Rules_for_Conduct_and_Environment.pdf
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Pasigal wrote:
That's not an accident. I've seen way more closer calls!

Anyway, I have no idea how you could "blame" anyone other than the uphill skier. You just need to assume that skiers below you don't see you or will move about haphazardly.

I've taken to signaling by pointing when I'm going to divert from my line on a cat track or traverse.

I've started doing that, and also when I'm traversing an entire piste, so that anyone coming from behind knows I'm going to keep going to the right and not suddenly start turning back in the direction from which I came.
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Belch wrote:
maggi wrote:
Belch wrote:
make him aware (eg shouting on your left / on your right) prior to passing at an appropriate point. . . . .


How do you know what nationality the person in front is? Oh, yeah, of course shouting in English means everyone in the world understands you rolling eyes .


Well listening to the vid they're obvs American; however in my experience most understand simple english in Switzerland / Austria so trying to attempt a 'Diene Linke / lhr Recht' is probably more futile . . . . France is a different issue altogether - they refuse to respond to English especially English commands (goes all the way back to Agincourt) even when they're probably fluent so a simple loud 'a gauche / a droite' (translation = YOUR left / YOUR right) always seems to do the trick as it lets peeps know the side you are trying to pass them on . . . failing this a crack on the calves with your pole as you pass them reminds them of their historic inferiority and general laissez fair attitudes to ski etiquette. . . Toofy Grin

Most people with perfect hearing, you mean?
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Whitegold wrote:
Downhill skier is snaking wildly with zero awareness of those to the side of him.

Uphill skier is drifting along in a bubble with zero understanding of those in front of him.

Both at fault -- 50/50.


+1

Best answer so far.
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nope
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Pyramus wrote:
Whitegold wrote:
Downhill skier is snaking wildly with zero awareness of those to the side of him.

Uphill skier is drifting along in a bubble with zero understanding of those in front of him.

Both at fault -- 50/50.


+1

Best answer so far.


It's a troll love-in Toofy Grin
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...what about when passing snowboarders?... Twisted Evil
[/troll]
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This, from Ski.fi sums it up perfectly I think.

https://www.ski.fi/laskettelu/laskettelija-huomioi-edes-nama-rinnesaannot/

"Even if the rules seem boring, it's worth writing down a few instructions under your helmet. They increase the safety of you and your fellow skiers. On average, it's more comfortable to leave the slope on your own than with an ambulance.


If the slope rules were always remembered and followed, the number of dangerous situations would decrease considerably. Most of the accidents and near-miss situations could be avoided if each skier paid attention to his fellow skiers and followed the slope rules.

Man is not an owl
An owl can see behind and even a horse's field of vision is almost 360 degrees. Man, on the other hand, only sees in front of him.

The human field of vision is narrow. At best, we can only see straight ahead and a small strip from the sides of our head. If the gaze is focused on an object, the field of vision is even narrower, tubular.

That's why the skier coming from behind always dodges on the slope, so always.

The one counting above doesn't have to turn his head like an owl and move out of the way of those who are cooling hard. The overtaking driver must give enough space to the slower one. If the person in front of you is a child or an insecure adult, you should give space even more generously.

Turning requires skill, not plunging directly
Yes, abseiling is prohibited in the rules of all slopes. In the rules table, tumbling doesn't refer to that form of competition, but directly to tumbling. These slope bombs force other skiers to turn into ever-watchful owls and make desperate evasive maneuvers.

The pace of a straight descent naturally accelerates throughout the downhill. The more momentum builds up, the more skill it takes to stop and turn. The more speed, the greater the impact energy and the greater the risks of breaking a knee, spraining a wrist or getting a concussion.

A skier is a danger to himself and especially to other skiers.

For the information of the wild ones, calculating directly does not require any kind of skills. Gravity takes care of the downward drain.

The slope rules also apply to good skiers
Are you also a better than average calculator? That's nice. Nine out of ten calculators answer in the affirmative - which means that half rate their skills at the top.

Overestimating one's own skills and taking risks is the main reason why so many accidents happen on the slopes. On the slope, the speed easily accelerates beyond urban limits and even to highway speeds. When you lose control of your skis at that speed or a fellow skier suddenly falls in front of you, your muscles, joints, bones and skull are in real danger. In the worst case scenario, you will bump into a smaller one and even if your iron body and the fastest reactions in the West would save you, the smaller calculator might break a bone.

Unequivocally: the slope is not the right place to bet."

I think that makes it pretty clear. Madeye-Smiley
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Good old Google Translate. I wonder what 'cooling hard' means. Laughing
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Having read this thread, I took note of a few situations on the slopes over the last days. I usually ski offpiste, but the snow there is tough so I've been staying on piste almost exclusively, hence I have new material.

First: on taking a wider turn to cross a relatively busy run, I looked up for a fraction of a second to make sure no one was coming down fast, but even in that short moment the arrangement of skiers in front of me changed considerably, so I had to slightly change my route as soon as I looked ahead again. Clearly, looking up all the time before changing turn shape is impossible, and if people tried it there would be far more accidents.

Second: there were several cases of people in front of me taking unexpected turns. In none of these was I skiing so fast and so close to them that I couldn't easily avoid them. If the piste was too busy, I just slowed down way before reaching them. If it was empty, my route took me far away from them anyway. If I was at the edge of a piste, I had already planned to get off the piste in case my line was closed off by a skier in front (and if not possible, again I slowed down).

Third: on one of the last runs today, slightly ahead of a "Rallentisez" sign, I heard a harsh scrape of snow just behind me and to the right, so turned hard left to make sure no one would run into me. At that point, a lady coming from above almost clipped me. Of course, I could also have been avoiding ice, or a kid, or a fallen skier...


@Pyramus, if you take a step back, this could be a great learning moment for you. Lots of experienced skiers are telling you that your opinion is flat out wrong. The fact that a skier may want to ski defensively and avoid unexpected moves (which I do, at least most of the time) does NOT mean that the skier behind is only partly at fault in case of an accident. That fault still lies fully with the skier behind. (Exceptions include people below rejoining the piste from offpiste, especially in blind spots, and people starting off without looking up - although that's so common that I try to plan for it, too).


Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Sat 30-12-23 21:48; edited 1 time in total
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Hurtle wrote:
Good old Google Translate. I wonder what 'cooling hard' means. Laughing


I liked "slope bombs" best Laughing
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@Pyramus,

So, basically you are saying that slower skiers should always be looking behind to avoid skiers like you, who just want to whizz through without having to slow down?

Whilst it is good practice for any skier to take a glance over their shoulder before making a sudden change to the pattern of their skiing, or stopping at the side of the piste etc, it is ALWAYS the responsibility of the uphill skier to allow for erratic manoeuvres from skiers in front.
The fis rules may seem simplistic to you, but they are actually more clever than you think, as they tend to reduce overall speed on the piste.
If you want to go fast (as I frequently do) find a quiet piste, quiet resort, go at a quiet time of year, if you can't do any of these, tough, put up, shut up & slow down.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@tangowaggon, +1
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Back guy is at fault.

Imho skiers setting off or planning to stop should be aware and check the situation behind, but once in flow they should concentrate on other things.

I do tend to half look round when skiing at times, a potentially dangerous for me habit and it can inhibit my skiing.

I was on a well respected ski clinic where an instructor (not with us) from behind tried to bollock me for my line taken. The guy who runs the clinic went after the loudmouth and put him straight on slope etiquette.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Snow&skifan, I know what you mean about skiers setting off, though ultimately the responsibility still has to lie with the uphill skier because, while it's frustrating when it happens ( especially when it's an ESF instructor and party), and they should know better, what if it's a child or group of kids? Are they expected to be as responsible as adults? For that reason if no other, it must always be the responsibility of the uphill skier to anticipate ALL possible problems, and then avoid them.
Ski passes are the same price for all levels, so all levels are entitled to be there.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
horizon wrote:
The fact that a skier may want to ski defensively and avoid unexpected moves (which I do, at least most of the time) does NOT mean that the skier behind is only partly at fault in case of an accident.


Possibly not, but I still recon the downhill guy pulled off an extremely bad move by closing the door entirely by skiing right to edge of the piste like that. Put that move on a busier piste and you definitely won't be popular. The uphill guy had a wide open path on the left and there was no reason he needed to pull to right hand side of the piste to pass him, in fact that would have taken him closer to downhill guy. Like another poster said, ultimately downhill guy is going to get hurt even if in theory it is not his fault.

ulmerhutte wrote:
This thread conflates 2 issues/arguments, ie skiing (and assigning fault) according to the FIS rules, which are written, versus guidelines for skiing defensively (to reduce risk of being hurt), which are not codified, but usually learned by experience (and often pain). It is thus in many aspects of life, ie the law says one thing, but prudence suggests some different course of action.


Yes this is a good point.
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thecramps wrote:
@Snow&skifan, I know what you mean about skiers setting off, though ultimately the responsibility still has to lie with the uphill skier because, while it's frustrating when it happens ( especially when it's an ESF instructor and party), and they should know better, what if it's a child or group of kids? Are they expected to be as responsible as adults? For that reason if no other, it must always be the responsibility of the uphill skier to anticipate ALL possible problems, and then avoid them.
Ski passes are the same price for all levels, so all levels are entitled to be there.


Hi. I totally agree, but I do that for self preservation and courtesy to those already using the slopes.
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@Pyramus, please stop. Have you not read anything that other experienced skiers have said? Debate should always be entered with an open mind, a mind open to understanding when it is wrong. You are so determined your right you are missing great advice and learning. I have a few times openly admitted I was wrong when clearly shown I was. It's liberating. Try it! You are fast losing the room and becoming a bore, though I'm sure your an ok bloke (your def a bloke because a woman would have recognised the logic and weight of argument ages ago and would have either changed the subject, left the thread or acknowledged error) but please. You are very very wrong.
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Pyramus wrote:
horizon wrote:
The fact that a skier may want to ski defensively and avoid unexpected moves (which I do, at least most of the time) does NOT mean that the skier behind is only partly at fault in case of an accident.


Possibly not, but I still recon the downhill guy pulled off an extremely bad move by closing the door entirely by skiing right to edge of the piste like that. Put that move on a busier piste and you definitely won't be popular. The uphill guy had a wide open path on the left and there was no reason he needed to pull to right hand side of the piste to pass him, in fact that would have taken him closer to downhill guy. Like another poster said, ultimately downhill guy is going to get hurt even if in theory it is not his fault.


You're still not getting it, are you? The uphill skier did not have any right to any path on a shared piste.
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I’m always surprised there aren’t more accidents at the edge of pistes. I or others might be skiing down the edge of a wide red or blue in a consistent line and decent pace, when like a bat out of hell the archetypal speed merchant squeezes past taking an even closer line to trees or a precipice. Literally inches from me, trees or a drop. Hellbent on their chosen line for the entire piste.

Seems dangerous and tw@tish.
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@Snow&skifan, I think there is an issue with telly tubbies wanting to make their otherwise dull vid more exciting and more "Candide-like" by passing people as close as possible. Just Billy-big-bollox cráp.
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thecramps wrote:
@Pyramus, You are very very wrong.


Yes, we all know it, she knows it, it's a wind up.
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Snow&skifan wrote:
I’m always surprised there aren’t more accidents at the edge of pistes. I or others might be skiing down the edge of a wide red or blue in a consistent line and decent pace, when like a bat out of hell the archetypal speed merchant squeezes past taking an even closer line to trees or a precipice. Literally inches from me, trees or a drop. Hellbent on their chosen line for the entire piste.

Seems dangerous and tw@tish.
I used to ski on the edge of crowded pistes eg a last run down beset with mogul carnage, because it seemed safer. No longer, there is too much risk of being wiped out by an open-jacketed youth straightlining it.
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@Hurtle, I choose far more carefully when and where I ski these days, partly because of conditions but also to avoid idiots who are far more prevalent than they were, especially towards the end of an afternoon.

I used to enjoy the final run home - remember the old days from the Folie Duce on EOSBs? These days I tend to drop back to resort afteron a lift or in a bubble.

It's not just on normal pistes. There is a challenging, usually heavily mogulled black as a run home at Les Deux Alpes. It used to make feel I had earned my beer at the bottom. Unfortunately it is now regularly taken on by skiers who don't have the ability to do it. Nor do they know how to arrest their fall. Net result: high risk of being taken out by someone falling fast.
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@achilles, totally agreed. Modern equipment is partly to blame, isn't it? Makes people think they can ski when they actually can't (including me, but I've never been a speed merchant, so it doesn't matter. Laughing )
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I would always have avoided a crowded mogulled black if there was an alternative. Coward? Oh yes.....
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You know it makes sense.
pam w wrote:
I would always have avoided a crowded mogulled black if there was an alternative. Coward? Oh yes.....
Me too. I had to ski (I use the term loosely) Le Tunnel once, finding myself with no alternative for getting back to resort. Not fun. There seemed to be nobody on there who could actually ski.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
The crux of this thread to me seems to echo a societal issue of entitlement to do what you want when you want just to please ones self. People who want to ski recklessly are selfish with no regard of how they impact others. It’s no different when you see morons drive too fast for conditions and environment.
Everyone has a right to use the piste and not expect to get clattered from behind. The fear of a nervous skier should not be underestimated. It can ruin someones day or even whole holiday.
Regardless of the rules/laws which have been made crystal clear here time and again please everyone just consider being kind, empathetic and selfless when it comes to your skiing. If you can’t find a safe quiet spot to go fast without endangering others question whether you should be there at all. It’s a moment in time, do you really need to go at it like that in the video, what would it have cost to just slow down, move over and move on? Nothing.
You poor decision making based on narrow minded selfishness, at its worst, could cost someone their life, health and happiness including your own.
@Pyramus, Please consider this and try to adjust the way you think. It will be to everyone’s benefit, even yours.
Heres to happy safe enjoyable skiing for all in 2024
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 Poster: A snowHead
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It seems to me that Pyramus is stupid, selfish or a troll, or any permutation of all three. Is there any point in continuing to engage with such a person?
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Pyramus wrote:


….I still recon the downhill guy pulled off an extremely bad move by closing the door entirely by skiing right to edge of the piste like that.


I think this is probably where your major misunderstanding lies - it’s only a “bad” move if you’re not allowing for it. Otherwise, it’s just a move.
I think most people would agree it’s sensible to make turns before you reach the edge of the piste but there have been many occasions when I have had to abort a turn at short notice - a bare patch, a stick or a lump of ice, poor balance, perhaps - forcing me to make exactly this kind of “bad move” by using the extra couple of yards of piste I had been allowing before making the turn.
This may have been one of those occasions; when I’m the downhill skier, I have no choice but to make a “bad move” but when I’m the uphill skier, it is my responsibility - and yours - to make allowances for such events.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Hurtle wrote:
It seems to me that Pyramus is stupid, selfish or a troll, or any permutation of all three. Is there any point in continuing to engage with such a person?

It's a good question. Their views do seem to be those of a teenager with much to learn and fearful of being wrong but on the other hand is it our duty to educate them? At what point do we give up finding different ways of explaining the issues in hope that a glimmer of light may penetrate?

@Red Leon, Yes, this.
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You guys are awesome.

Btw, it is not me in the video, it is just a random clip I saw that I thought would make an interesting discussion.

And fair play you made it interesting and I love you for that and respect your passion for the subject.

Happy NY!! Very Happy

(PS. Avoid St Anton in Feb half term as I'll be terrorizing the pistes then Very Happy Very Happy )
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@Pyramus, As I suspected at the start of this thread, a post to prod the bear and see what happened. It certainly ran a lot longer than I was expecting (hoping) rolling eyes
Thanks for the heads up about St. Anton and it might help the rest of us if you could attach a large flashing yellow light to your helmet (assuming you wear one Confused ) Laughing
happy NY.
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Doing snowploughs on the gentlest run? NehNeh
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@snowheid, As I suspected, and called it as such on page 1. A simple piece of bait to pull in a good net full. The giveaway was the overacted outrage to being called as a troll.
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Hurtle wrote:
pam w wrote:
I would always have avoided a crowded mogulled black if there was an alternative. Coward? Oh yes.....
Me too. I had to ski (I use the term loosely) Le Tunnel once, finding myself with no alternative for getting back to resort. Not fun. There seemed to be nobody on there who could actually ski.


I've skied Le Tunnel a few times . . .primarily based on the bravado of youth and bar bragging points - never again. Anyone that says they actually enjoy 4ft+ icy faced moguls on a steep pitch is either a liar or practicing for the FIS Freestyle world cup - and even they wouldn't practice on that daft run . . .

Going back to the op and another posters comment - much like driving fast on the motorway or playing football in midfield I constantly scan and check blind-spots (over the shoulder) when skiing on any busy piste; being older and more risk averse the ramifications of any accident are simply not worth it . . .
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Belch wrote:
I constantly scan and check blind-spots (over the shoulder) when skiing on any busy piste


That's what I like to hear...nice work Belch!! Maybe you don't need to be an "owl" after all!! Very Happy
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You might be overplaying your hand now.

HNY and enjoy St Anton
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