 Poster: A snowHead
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| livetoski wrote: |
@jedster,
Thanks really good response, the material is woven in Cambodia, from stem extract its an ancient process, reinvented a few years ago.
The fabric was developed by them, its just that they don't publicise it on their website.
Our factory have made a jacket before of this fabric but not for the ski industry, actually for a more water based sport lol
Your very right about the price I wanted to go much higher!
When you consider it takes 40,000 stems to make 1 Square meter of fabric and all this is done by hand with zero emissions
I hope other brands look at it but their margin requirements are huge, so they may well have looked at it already and decided that charging well over £1000 a jacket would not work.
I will try and get some sort of video out to you guys to show the waterproof nature, maybe an old git like me stood in a cold shower for an hour might do it  |
Yes that might do it!
I think this is the tough thing for small companies being innovative in outdoor gear - I'm not surprised the fabric is expensive but if you haven't invested in a brand for a couple of decades it is hard to price appropriately for it. I know that they are not trying to lead on sustainability but I'm struck by Stellar who started offering quite a big price saving relatively to established brands selling through retail but seem to have been closing the pricing recently.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@jedster, hmmm, yes, Stellar ... I'm pleased with my shell, delighted at the original price, not so sure at current pricing (why would I not go Arc'teryx instead?). It's been performing well but Mrs U's Arc Beta seems to be wearing better (less wetting out despite appropriate handling). And she paid way below RRP as her previous (6 year old?) Arc jacket started to wear thru in weird places, they'd stopped using that flavour of goretex => couldn't repair so offered a significant credit note. My memory's vague but I'm thinking something along the lines of €600 against an €800 jacket.
Can't argue with that service.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Greetings, I'm Brandon Shepherd from SnowShepherd.
We sincerely appreciate the overwhelming positive feedback, which fuels our passion for making a positive impact within the ski industry. Despite the ongoing discussions about climate change, many still purchase ski wear that harms what we hold dear. I've dedicated the past two years of my life to creating something truly unique, aiming to make a difference after all our we are shepherds not sheep DON'TBE A SHEEP. My love for the mountains and the desire to preserve them for generations motivated this journey. Our jacket production takes place in a solar-powered factory, and we provide clean water to five local villages through a filtration system. Please check our Instagram for videos and evidence of these.
Our innovative SnowShepherd Lotus jackets, crafted from Lotus flower stems. While it may sound unbelievable, I encourage you to put aside any doubts and discover the jackets for yourself. I spent hours demonstrating their remarkable qualities at the National Snow Show at the NEC, leaving everyone astonished by the fabric's softness and its Lotus-like performance. This fabric is out there for other companies to use but they are more than happy to use cheaper fabrics and say they are sustainable. We will not be putting patent on this as I feel it kind of defeats the object. I would love everyone to use this fabric. IT IS OUT THERE TO USE.
We invite you to experience this for yourself at the London EXCEL this weekend. I'm more than happy to explain it all in person. It's easy to critique from behind a keyboard or a phone, but we believe in taking action.
Thank you,
Brandon Shepherd
SnowShepherd
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| Brandon SnowShepherd wrote: |
| It's easy to critique from behind a keyboard or a phone, |
Oh, then you’re going to love it on here! 
See you at the show.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
It's easy to critique from behind a keyboard or a phon
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It's also easy to produce a white paper with your testing results on. You would quickly shut up any critique. When you make a "most breathable jacket ever" statement, and don't actually provide g/m2 measurements it looks a little suspect. Especially when their are jackets that have way less waterproofing as a compromise to be more lightweight and breathable.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Brandon SnowShepherd, welcome to SHs 
While I retain a healthy scepticism, reading and pondering it sounds as though the fabric by its nature has a permanent DWR and the weaving process creates a fabric with just the "right" pore sizes to repel liquid H2O but pass vapour.
Presuming (obvs) that it's strong enough to not require any sort of carrier fabric, you don't need any artificial DWR - which as I understand it is an unfortunate requirement for e.g. gore-tex which isn't tough enough to survive on its own hence carrier fabric, hence DWR.
I would be interested, out of interest, in you being able to back up your "world's breathablest" but wotever.
Could you do a version without the duck tail please? I am not a Porsche.
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| Brandon SnowShepherd wrote: |
It's easy to critique from behind a keyboard or a phone, but we believe in taking action.
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Little tip from someone also trying to run a sustainability-focused business: online critique is a *good thing*. It gives you an opportunity to enter dialogue with potential customers and explain the positives of your products/business right where and when it’s needed most (when they and other potential customers stumble across stumbling blocks before purchase). It should also inform your future marketing strategy - you now know exactly what objections customers may have in your sales funnel and therefore what content you need to produce to overcome said objections. Here best in the form of blog articles for further SEO and search benefits. Instagram should be more about branding/inspiration/social proof; it’s not easily ‘searchable’ enough to get this sort of info in front of customers at the right time.
But you do have to actually address and prove the points, not just throw out some PR speak with no real info.
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I bought one at the NEC. I’ve been following the development via Brandon’s social media. I can’t comment on the technical numbers but it felt really good and comfortable on with good design pocket wise etc, granted the pass pocket is higher up the arm. . The side zips are full length, like the buffalo smock, so ventilation wise should work nicely. I wouldn’t normally wear a ski jkt dog walking etc but I will with this one just to get a feel for it. I have 2 trips planned over the winter plus the odd fridge session. I’m really looking forward to using it and will happily comment after the winter for better or worse with how it performed for me.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@RobH2017, does it have a poo bag pocket?
Enjoy looks a great product, if I was in the market I’d be looking at one.
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@RobH2017, any chance you can dog walk in the forthcoming Storm Babet rain and comment on how waterproof and breathable it is?
It's great to see something new on the market!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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As soon as it arrives (has to be posted as my size and colour had sold out) I shall head to the nearest rain cloud and let you know.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@RobH2017,
Many thanks, we would welcome all feedback
Already noted the lift pass pocket comments, maybe we should have both lower and upper pockets?
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My new jkt has arrived in the last hour so sat on a conference call at home wearing it :0)
I’m looking forward to wearing it in anger but add excellent customer service and delivery speed into the + column already (ordered Sunday at the show, delivered Tuesday am).
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You know it makes sense.
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@livetoski, I've never worried about a lift pass pocket personally, if on my jackets its high up I dip down with arm out (like on my Norrona Lofoten Pro), if its in the breast phone pocket I turn around (Mountain Equipment), if it's on the lower sleeve then its easier but not a big deal at all in any event. I wear my top layer shells all year round so i'd find a zipper on the left hand sleeve an unnecessary nice to have when hiking the 5-10x I use the jacket for rather than skiing.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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So the website has taken down the previous claims of most waterproof, most breathable, and whatever the sustainability claim was too. Even the 100,000mm waterproofing rating has disappeared. Guess this just proves it was too good to be true.
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Poster: A snowHead
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We'd like to provide you with an update regarding our new Snow Shepherd Lotus Jackets. Some of you have raised questions about the claims we've made about the jacket. After engaging in extensive discussions and testing with the mill that produces the fabric and our factory, we can now confirm the following:
It is the most waterproof ski jacket available on the market as far as we can determine. Additionally, its breathability surpasses any other product we've come across. We are actively working to update our website with the latest information provided by the fabric mill and the factory.
Snow Shepherd Lotus Fabric operates in a manner similar to the Lotus effect and uses natural waterproofing. It is fully sustainable, recyclable, and nearly carbon neutral. Unfortunately, this fabric is exclusively intended for use by Snow Shepherd, and we trust that you understand our decision to safeguard this proprietary formula.
Furthermore, A specialized membrane is incorporated behind the fabric to protect you even if the jacket gets wet, you won't.
All SnowShepherd Lotus Jackets are produced using solar power.
Yes, this could be the most sustainable jacket ever
Yes, this could be the most waterproof jacket ever
Yes, this could be the most breathable jacket ever
We want to emphasize that we had no intention of misleading anyone, and we remain committed to providing accurate and transparent information about our products and breacking boundaries within the ski industry making change to the better
Keep an eye on the website for updates, and we look forward to seeing people at the London show, which we are working on now.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@livetoski, really well done, like your approach and honesty, it’s great to see this innovation and belief in what looks like it could be a winner for you.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| under a new name wrote: |
@jedster, hmmm, yes, Stellar ... I'm pleased with my shell, delighted at the original price, not so sure at current pricing (why would I not go Arc'teryx instead?). It's been performing well but Mrs U's Arc Beta seems to be wearing better (less wetting out despite appropriate handling). And she paid way below RRP as her previous (6 year old?) Arc jacket started to wear thru in weird places, they'd stopped using that flavour of goretex => couldn't repair so offered a significant credit note. My memory's vague but I'm thinking something along the lines of €600 against an €800 jacket.
Can't argue with that service. |
I've bought some stuff that I like but it's now very similar price to say Mountain Equipment full price retail or indeed Arcteryx online when they are doing 20% off. Not a no brainer as you say.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Perhaps a few brand ambassadors? Not meant as a request btw I’m good with current kit but a few folks spreading the word and providing feedback, social media insta savvy types.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
We want to emphasize that we had no intention of misleading anyone, and we remain committed to providing accurate and transparent information about our products and breacking boundaries within the ski industry making change to the better
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Ok. In the interest of being accurate and transparent publish the white paper of your testing. I presume you had some proper independent testing done and are not simply relying on the people that sell you the material and have a huge conflict of interest. It's not a good look removing your claims.
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I've bought some stuff that I like but it's now very similar price to say Mountain Equipment full price retail or indeed Arcteryx online when they are doing 20% off. Not a no brainer as you say.
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3 layer 20,000mm+ waterproof jacket for £140. If arctetyx or norrona bought out that exact jacket at the same price people would be losing their minds.
https://www.decathlon.co.uk/p/men-s-waterproof-jacket-20-000-mm-taped-seams-mt500/_/R-p-172306?mc=8492328&c=blue
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
| Quote: |
We want to emphasize that we had no intention of misleading anyone, and we remain committed to providing accurate and transparent information about our products and breacking boundaries within the ski industry making change to the better
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Ok. In the interest of being accurate and transparent publish the white paper of your testing. I presume you had some proper independent testing done and are not simply relying on the people that sell you the material and have a huge conflict of interest. It's not a good look removing your claims.
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I've bought some stuff that I like but it's now very similar price to say Mountain Equipment full price retail or indeed Arcteryx online when they are doing 20% off. Not a no brainer as you say.
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3 layer 20,000mm+ waterproof jacket for £140. If arctetyx or norrona bought out that exact jacket at the same price people would be losing their minds.
https://www.decathlon.co.uk/p/men-s-waterproof-jacket-20-000-mm-taped-seams-mt500/_/R-p-172306?mc=8492328&c=blue |
I've learned over the years not to think that the specs tell you everything. Fit and durability can differ quite a lot between brands. I've seen quite a lot of shells from Fern and Alpkit at a similar price point with similar specs and they are good. For the price.
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Not sure either of them would be using Teflon membranes these days to be fair
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Son wrote:
| Brandon SnowShepherd wrote: |
This fabric is out there for other companies to use but they are more than happy to use cheaper fabrics and say they are sustainable. We will not be putting patent on this as I feel it kind of defeats the object. I would love everyone to use this fabric. IT IS OUT THERE TO USE.
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Father wrote:
| livetoski wrote: |
Snow Shepherd Lotus Fabric operates in a manner similar to the Lotus effect and uses natural waterproofing. It is fully sustainable, recyclable, and nearly carbon neutral. Unfortunately, this fabric is exclusively intended for use by Snow Shepherd, and we trust that you understand our decision to safeguard this proprietary formula.
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So which is it?
I'm sure their intentions are honourable, but then I've heard what the road to hell is paved with.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@JayRo, exclusively sold to Snow Shepherd is different from SS putting a patent on it. I assume the manufacturer owns the IP but SS have secured an exclusive relationship as no other retailer wants to buy it. If another retailer came along then the manufacturer could sell subject to the exclusivity SS might have secured.
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| ster wrote: |
| @JayRo, exclusively sold to Snow Shepherd is different from SS putting a patent on it. I assume the manufacturer owns the IP but SS have secured an exclusive relationship as no other retailer wants to buy it. If another retailer came along then the manufacturer could sell subject to the exclusivity SS might have secured. |
Do you really not see the contradiction between 'this fabric is exclusively intended for use by Snow Shepherd, and we trust that you understand our decision to safeguard this proprietary formula' and 'I would love everyone to use this fabric. IT IS OUT THERE TO USE.', or indeed between saying that putting a patent on it 'kind of defeats the object' and talking about 'our decision to safeguard this proprietary formula'?
Regardless of what the Shepherd's do with the 'propietary formula', they could still publish the test results that would support their claims. The fact that they've chosen not to speaks volumes.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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That's not a "review". It's just a regurgitation of their own marketing spiel. Without any facts to back it up still.
They are just hurting their own reputation and bringing huge criticism to what is probably a decent jacket. They are fortunate they had some credibility due to their gloves. If this was a start up with no history people would be laughing at the ridiculous marketing and seemingly complete confusion between the owners.
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@JayRo, if SS has invested time and money into this of course they are going to look to protect/recover their investment. Part of that will be if someone else wanted to use it and would need to come to a commercial arrangement to give SS a return (as with what Gore-tex do?). So I don’t necessarily see a total contradiction in what they say, its just that no-one else has wanted it enough?
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You know it makes sense.
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@Tim, Brandon as a number of us know you I think you probably deserve a bit of slack. I think we can accept that you are doing this for the right reasons and you have a genuine interest in increasing ing availability of better quality kit in your own niche. The jacket looks great from the photos.
I think the scepticism is that the big names are also trying to burnish their eco credentials and aren't punting anything like this and furthermore they usually have some scientific data (perhaps supplied by the fabric manufacturer) to back up claims. Now that might be relatively simply answered if the manufacturer is little more than a cottage industry so simply couldn't produce the volume to supply a less niche brand. In such a cottage industry the lack of data is less surprising. I guess really validation will come with customer testimonials from use in extreme applications (quite often skiing is not really such an application , waterproofing in only really tested on those wet storm days and windproofing is the more common daily concern).
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
In such a cottage industry the lack of data is less surprising.
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Which is why they shot themselves in the foot with silly outlandish claims. Which they have had to remove from their website which makes the suspicion that it's actually a bit naff (which probably isn't the case).
I suspect a big heavy pvc jacket is more waterproof. I suspect a light jacket made for touring at the expense of such high levels of waterproofing are more breathable. I don't know how you can even begin to quantify most sustainable.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
| Which is why they shot themselves in the foot with silly outlandish claims. Which they have had to remove from their website which makes the suspicion that it's actually a bit naff (which probably isn't the case). |
Exactly. And also with the highly defensive responses to questions and contradictory messages.
Ultimately, I care more about the quality of the product than about the marketing strategy of its makers, or indeed their postings on an internet forum. However, I wish they'd decided to make it more rather than less easy to judge the quality of the product--certainly their responses have given me more reason to be sceptical than I previously had (already owning a pair of their gloves).
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Some pretty harsh comments above, SH community guys bringing a new product to market should be judged on the merit of the product imv not their marketing strategy, i'd like to see them being cut some slack and if the sceptics want to wait for reviews fine, in the meantime my view is well done to them for having a go at something which on the face of it seems pretty sustainable and innovative.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Markymark29 wrote: |
| Some pretty harsh comments above, SH community guys bringing a new product to market should be judged on the merit of the product imv not their marketing strategy, i'd like to see them being cut some slack and if the sceptics want to wait for reviews fine, in the meantime my view is well done to them for having a go at something which on the face of it seems pretty sustainable and innovative. |
If you think that I've got some snakeoil to sell you, 15% discount for Snowheads.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@JayRo, have you used any other Snow Shepherd products? I've had a lot of stuff from them, including proprietary designs, which has all been excellent. On the basis of that, I'd give them at least some benefit of the doubt. They're not scam artists, they clearly care about their end market and the customer experience.
I appreciate that in this case, they've probably got a little too far over their skis, in their enthusiasm for a new product/fabric, and repeating claims that they probably took in good faith, rather than with documentary evidence. However, I've had big brand "tested" gear that's not lived up to its bold claims either - I'm sure the manufacturers had white papers coming out of their ears, but in the cold light of a ski day, it didn't hold up. You only have to look at the North Face's Futurelight fabric to see that what looks good on paper might not hold up in reality.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I'm with @Markymark29 and @snowdave - this is a brand that has produced good kit in the past, and isn't hiding away this new jacket - they were at the ski show at the NEC, and will be in London this weekend (and tickets are free) allowing people to get a look up close.
It's also a small brand who may not be great at writing marketing blurb, but they've been responsive on here, and appear to be genuinely trying to work on that (and have been given hopefully lots of useful pointers re. the info people would like to see online).
I've seen the new jacket in Birmingham, and while I've not tested it outdoors, it feels great, and has some very clever design elements - a lot of thought has clearly gone into it. And Tim and Brandon come across as really happy and excited about what they've been able to produce.
I'm looking forward (positively) to seeing reviews and feedback from people using it in anger.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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I'm agreeing with @Markymark29, @snowdave & @Fixx. Some of the comments above about a company trying to sell a new product are so rude. Have any of the negative input members even seen or tried the product? No, of course not it's barely released. I accept the marketing may not been the finest, however, I have only tried their gloves and they have been fine. So give us a break!
And before anyone goes on about big brands, they can also say stuff that doesn't live up to the written word, I've had a pair of Salomon Gortex gloves that leak water in like a sieve, and plenty of gear over 40 years of skiing that doesn't live up to the hype they say. I bought a described as 'warm' Northface jacket that was anything but that, big waste of money, never wear it. Google virtually every big brand product and someone will find it didn't do what it claimed.
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Have any of us actually criticised the jacket though? No, we simply pointed out the advertising was ridiculous. To the point they removed it, which has hurt their credibility in the eyes of some.
You don't have to be a marketing expert to know those claims were stupid. Especially the most sustainable jacket one which is something it would be almost impossible to quantify.
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I fear that it's going to be a really hard sell in the UK. We tend to like big brands that are readily recognisable, makes us feel safe/part of the club.
A new brand with radical tech/materials at a mid-high price point whilst interesting is likely to find sales easily. probably need to get some seed/test units out for review.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| snowdave wrote: |
@JayRo, have you used any other Snow Shepherd products? I've had a lot of stuff from them, including proprietary designs, which has all been excellent. On the basis of that, I'd give them at least some benefit of the doubt. They're not scam artists, they clearly care about their end market and the customer experience.
I appreciate that in this case, they've probably got a little too far over their skis, in their enthusiasm for a new product/fabric, and repeating claims that they probably took in good faith, rather than with documentary evidence. However, I've had big brand "tested" gear that's not lived up to its bold claims either - I'm sure the manufacturers had white papers coming out of their ears, but in the cold light of a ski day, it didn't hold up. You only have to look at the North Face's Futurelight fabric to see that what looks good on paper might not hold up in reality. |
Yes, I've got a pair of their gloves, as I said upthread. So I'm predisposed towards thinking well of them. But when the response to people with more than reasonable questions is to say things such as 'I encourage you to put aside any doubts and discover the jackets for yourself' and 'It's easy to critique from behind a keyboard or a phone, but we believe in taking action', then a lot of that warmth starts to cool down. To be honest, if I'm shelling out the best part of a monkey for a jacket, it's not going to be because I've 'put aside any doubts', it's going to be because whatever doubts I might have had have been assured, usually by impartial reviews.
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I was talking with a customer about eco friendly outdoor jackets and mentioned the lotus jacket to him.
Looks like their webpage has been updated, with a link to the membrane https://www.porellemembranes.com/performance-eco1
and also some updated stats, would love to understand how these were arrived at?
Breathability: The Snowshepherd Lotus Jacket boasts an impressive breathability rating of 50,000k making it one of the most breathable jackets on the market. This high level of breathability indicates that the jacket effectively allows moisture vapor to escape, helping you stay comfortable and dry during physical activities.
Waterproofing: The Snowshepherd Lotus Jacket is equipped with a remarkable natural waterproofing feature. It has a waterproof rating of 50,000mm, making it one of the most waterproof jackets available. This exceptional waterproofing ensures that you can stay dry and protected in even the harshest weather conditions.
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FAQ
