 Poster: A snowHead
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| Motherofthree wrote: |
| @thierryd, Thanks very much for the info, sounds great, even if the total cost for the 6 day lift passes will still be £1410 for us. |
A lot of resort are making discounts for family
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@thierryd, i stand corrected!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| johnE wrote: |
| Quote: |
But even 13 days doesn't seem that tempting.
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It does to me... |
My point is most Brits are not going to manage more than 2 1 week trips due to work and other commitments. (And if you are a season pass would be the obvious option anyway). So even with the 13 day break even point my options are:
A. Buy a paradiski season pass meaning I'm locked into that domain. But save myself around €70 per person overall.
B. Accept that I will lose out on €70 per person but have the flexibility to pick any resort I want. This option may even work out cheaper as I'm not locked into a resort I may be able to find better deals for flights and accommodation.
So I don't see Paradiski 13 day break even season pass as a huge incentive. If you have a big family, want to do 2 trips, and paradiski is your favourite domain you may feel differently.
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I notice there are huge variations in child discount rates across different resorts and countries, which can actually influence where we chose to ski. The Swiss resorts seem quite generous when it comes to kids' and youth rates, but the French tend to be rather stingy.
For example, our family ski passes for Zermatt next year look to be around £80 _cheaper_ than our passes for our other trip to Serre Chevalier 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Motherofthree wrote: |
We are going to Tignes this Christmas and I was surprised to see that a Tignes lift pass over Christmas 2023 is 396 EUR for an adult and 336 EUR for a child, so 1800 EUR (about £1568) for our family of 5!  Never before have we paid this much for a 6 day lift pass. |
Maybe look at Easter next year. Here in Ski Amade all children under 16 ski free from mid-march when parent buys an adult pass. It was why we (with 3) started coming here.
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@Motherofthree, ah, I thought you were comparing to prior trips.
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| swskier wrote: |
| @clarky999, worth pointing out though (for the non locals on here) that your freizeitticket also includes summer season right? Which when you take that in to consideration, it becomes a pretty decent deal, as long as you use it. Considerably cheaper than a golf club membership. |
Oh it’s still great value and I easily waaay more than break even. I’d still get it this year if we weren’t going to be away for much of the season, but I’m in a pretty lucky position.
The price increases are going to significantly impact the demographics of Austrian skiing though, and that will likely impact the whole industry here (infrastructure funding etc) + acceptance of tourism too.
The average Austrian income works out to about €67 per day (net) - so even without transport/equipment/food a day of skiing already costs more than a day’s income. For a family of four with an average annual income - for whom season passes may well be unaffordable - that’s no longer something that can be done most weekends. Which means buying equipment no longer makes sense, which means hiring kit making it even more expensive…
Understandably everyone here looks at it from a holiday perspective, but for many/most Austrians going skiing on the weekend used to be UK equivalent of taking the kids to a park or playground, so it’s a pretty big social change.
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@clarky999, Do the Austrian resorts not offer the type of season pass that is offered in Les Arcs where you can ski for any 2 days in 7 throughout the season. This is specifically for the family weekend trade. They are 299€ for an adult and 240€ for the old and young.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@johnE, not that I’m aware of around Innsbruck at least (not sure about elsewhere in AT), but that sounds like a really good idea!
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Obviously small ski areas are usually cheaper than big ones. However, it's interesting how ski pass prices vary between Alpine countries. I don't think many people realise just how big the discrepancy can be, and it's the main reason why I tend to challenge the widespread opinion on Snowheads that (especially) Italy is cheaper to ski in than France. I've had a brief look at a few resort price lifts and they seem to confirm what I suspected, which is:
TL/DR: For mid-sized and small ski areas, France ski passes are significantly cheaper than Italy / Switzerland / Austria. For big ski areas, Austria's season passes are cheaper.
For day / weekly passes:
- at the biggest ski areas, Switzerland is more expensive than elsewhere. The rest are all similar to each other.
- at smaller ski areas, I've noticed an increasing difference between France (cheap) and the rest (expensive) - in many small or mid-sized resorts, Austria / Switzerland / Italy are approaching 100% more expensive, i.e. double the price.
For season passes it is different:
- for big ski areas, Austria is more competitive thanks to the many excellent season tickets which cover multiple areas. French season passes are pricey by comparison.
- for the smaller areas I suspect France wins for price.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| denfinella wrote: |
For season passes it is different:
- for big ski areas, Austria is more competitive thanks to the many excellent season tickets which cover multiple areas. French season passes are pricey by comparison.
- for the smaller areas I suspect France wins for price. |
I am curious about examples, can you share a couple please ?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I dare not ask the price of a Banff lift pass, at least not without a comfy armchair and glass of Lagavullin whisky.
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Just bought our Grand Massif season passes. EUR611 each for adults - an increase of 12% on last year and EUR 420 per child - a whopping 27% increase on last year. The Summer pass has gone up by around 50% and they have removed a few benefits like cancelation/refunds etc. Break even point is 10 days per year. We have booked 22 days and I also plan to chase some powder on an ad-hoc basis, so still in the money so to speak.
The locals are mighty pissed off and Samoens, which contributes about 40% of the Grand Massif lift revenues is in dispute, with the Mayor launching a legal challenge. How that will play out remains to be seen...
P.S.1. The increase sucks, but in terms of vfm, EUR611 per season to ski the 4th largest area in France and three days in places as diverse as Chamonix, Megeve or La Clusaz is still hard to beat... Bansko in BG with 75km of pistes and a 2hrs gondola queue is charging EUR1000 
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
I dare not ask the price of a Banff lift pass
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Depends when you go and for how long. Last year a lake Louise spring pass was £365, which must be one of the best deals around. Unlimited skiing from 1st march (march is perhaps the best time to visit lake Louise). Could have done 60+ days, but even for a 2 week trip it's great value compared to Europe.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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| thierryd wrote: |
| denfinella wrote: |
For season passes it is different:
- for big ski areas, Austria is more competitive thanks to the many excellent season tickets which cover multiple areas. French season passes are pricey by comparison.
- for the smaller areas I suspect France wins for price. |
I am curious about examples, can you share a couple please ? |
Sure. For "big ski area" season passes, I've used the biggest season passes:
3 Vallees (FR): €1550
(I think Paradiski is cheaper, but this has only happened in the last couple of seasons due to EU laws or something?)
Salzburger SuperSki (AUT): €1050
Tirol Snow Card (AUT): €1050
Dolomiti Superski (IT): €990 (even better than I was expecting)
For the smaller areas, there are so many to choose but I've gone for examples with around 70km of slopes:
Chamrousse (FR): €664
Livigno (IT): €910 (a rip off compared to Dolomiti Superski)
Obersaxen (CH): €827 (projected by adding 5% to last season's figure)
Western Switzerland - excellent value if you are on the Magic Pass
Austria - seems on a par with France (but often you are encouraged towards one of the regional season passes instead)
All the above are excluding possible early purchase discounts, which most areas have - otherwise it becomes too difficult to compare. I haven't cherry-picked the examples - they are the first that came to mind as places that have similar sized areas, usually with similar lift systems (apart from Obersaxen - arguably this skews the results in Switzerland's favour). I'm sure there are many exceptions to the sweeping statement I made above, but I reckon it's fair as a general rule.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| denfinella wrote: |
Sure. For "big ski area" season passes, I've used the biggest season passes:
3 Vallees (FR): €1550
Salzburger SuperSki (AUT): €1050
Tirol Snow Card (AUT): €1050
Dolomiti Superski (IT): €990 (even better than I was expecting). |
You are taking the most expensive big resort price with 3 Vallées...
For other big ones in France you can go down a lot:
- Tignes-Val d'Isère: 830 €
- Portes du Soleil: 1176 €
- Paradiski: 780 €
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| denfinella wrote: |
Tirol Snow Card (AUT): €1050 |
This becomes cheaper if you're a local resident I believe. I'll confirm the amount on Sunday when I have the first ski of my 23/24 season.
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@thierryd, I think @denfinella has done a cracking job but maybe you need to consider what you're actually getting for those prices as well:
3 Vallees (FR): €1550 - 600km of pistes.
Tignes-Val d'Isère: €830 - 300km of pistes
Portes du Soleil: €1176 - 650km (or 425 depending on how you count it)
Paradiski: €780 - 425km
Salzburger SuperSki (AUT): €1050 - 2800km
Tirol Snow Card (AUT): €1050 - up to 4000km
I know the French ones give you days at other resorts too so you could add up PdS, 3V and Espace Killy but you still only get to around 1500km.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Whitegold wrote: |
| European resorts are Americanizing their lift prices. |
Nah nt until small resorts are €150 and the larger ones North of €250
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@RedandWhiteFlachau, the Haute Savoie ones usually give you 3 days tasters at other HS stations. Not a huge advantage.
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@thierryd, I understand the point you're making. Since all ski areas are different it is difficult to make comparisons that are completely fair.
Using the 3 Vallees comparison for the "big" resorts was deliberate as it's the closest French comparison to the biggest ski pass "circuses" in Italy / Austria.
I agree that as ski area size decreases, French season passes become more competitive. But even with your examples of Portes du Soleil / Tignes-Val / Paradiski, you are getting a lot less skiing for only slightly less money compared to the regional passes in Austria and Italy (as @RedandWhiteFlachau said above).
What I really think it comes down to is the target market. In Austria there is a big Day tripper market of Austrian and German skiers who descend on the Alps most weekends. Hence more competition for season passes, and they need to be affordable for the masses. Plus skiing is more of the Austrian psyche, so families are more likely to have season passes.
In France - especially in Tarentaise-upon-Thames - I reckon a higher % of season pass holders are either rich foreigners or on the payroll of chalet companies, with a free pass provided (probably discounted by the lift company).
It would be great if there was a season pass covering all the resorts in e.g. Haute Savoie or the Tarentaise. That would also enable a fairer comparison.
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@denfinella, I wonder what the split of
| Quote: |
| rich foreigners or on the payroll of chalet companies |
in e.g. the Haute Savoie is?
Certainly round here, in the catchment for Geneva, there are quite a few quasi-locals (i.e. M-F in Geneva - as we were till '19), lots of true working locals, and there are very few chalets these days (but independent service/chef companies). I can't say it feels like we have many regular "rich furriners".
Just as a point on the Chamonix pass, (22-23) 2,080 € and it gets you access to;
- Chamonix valley
- Megève, Saint-Gervais, Combloux, les Contamines et la Giettaz (Evasion MB)
- Aiguille du Midi
- Courmayeur (not limited)
-Verbier 4 Vallées (6 days)
-Crans Montana (2 days)
- 3 HS days
Which is quite a lot of - admittedly not linked - quality skiing.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Oddly, I think most of the season pass holders in les arcs are locals from bourg St maurice judging by all the green jackets flying past. There is community of foreigners but we are outnumbered by ĺocals. There are also quite a few weekend visitors from neighbouring towns such as grenoble.
Tbh I cannot see a trarentaise pass being of much use. Even if I have my car with me I cannot see me spending an hour driving up to tignes. There is more than enough quality skiing in paradiski to keep me happy for week after week.
I think many french families come by public transport so this would not be an option and the majority of the visitors are french.
The 2 days out of 7 season pass at under 300 euro looks a lot better value for weekend skiers than other prices quoted here.
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| under a new name wrote: |
@denfinella, I wonder what the split of
| Quote: |
| rich foreigners or on the payroll of chalet companies |
in e.g. the Haute Savoie is? |
Probably a greater proportion of locals / day trippers than the Tarentaise, but perhaps a lower proportion than much of Austria?
| under a new name wrote: |
Just as a point on the Chamonix pass, (22-23) 2,080 € and it gets you access to;
- Chamonix valley
- Megève, Saint-Gervais, Combloux, les Contamines et la Giettaz (Evasion MB)
- Aiguille du Midi
- Courmayeur (not limited)
-Verbier 4 Vallées (6 days)
-Crans Montana (2 days)
- 3 HS days
Which is quite a lot of - admittedly not linked - quality skiing. |
A lot of good skiing indeed, but double the price of the two main Austrian season passes, which get you more or less half of an entire country!
@johnE, that's a totally fair point about a theoretical Tarentaise pass not being very useful. Especially with the wiggly access roads in the region, compared to Austrian valley towns. More useful for day trippers, but a smaller population within 2 hours compared to Austria
I'd be surprised if locals made up a majority of the season pass holders at Les Arcs though - I wouldn't have thought BSM would have a big enough population to sustain that. Also re. Grenoble - there are so many other resorts within similar or shorter driving distance that I couldn't imagine a large % opting for Les Arcs as a choice for a season pass. (Now if there was a season pass for Isere-Savoie, that would be much more useful for them  )
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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My neighbour in Arc1600 lives just outside Grenoble. We meet a lot of his local skiclub, who come for weekends or weeks. It is about a 2 hour drive to Les Arcs. OK Les Arcs is very much a French resort, sufficiently so that if I hear an English voice I turn and often have a chat. It is very different from say Val d'Isere. OK I don't know the figures but I guess there are a couple hundred non French season pass holders and a couple thousand locals. The only way I ever get a feeling for this is watching photographs come up on the lifties screen when a season pass holder goes through. Almost all are speaking French.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Just to add context to the debate, here's a question I asked Ski Amade.
"Can you please explain why there are such differences in Early Pass savings? The early deals have an adult saving of €52, an U-25 saving of €174 and a youth saving of a whopping €279. As it mainly "adults" who pay the bill, why are we not getting the same deal?"
And the very sensible and informative reply.
"Depending on the group of people (adults, U-25, youth,….), our board will decide on a price for the advance sale and the normal price.
The main focus of Ski amadé's discount policy is on young and very young skiing enthusiasts and their families, as families are usually particularly financially burdened. In the spirit of generous "youth sports promotion", Ski amadé wants to make it possible for children and young people to enjoy skiing. Through discounts for children and young people (e.g. Junior Weekend Discount, Easter Family Campaign) Ski amadé wants to contribute to ensuring that this wonderful outdoor sport, skiing and snowboarding, continues to be practised with enthusiasm and brings joy to children.
We ask for your understanding for the fact that our mountain railways have to operate positively in order to survive. This also secures thousands of jobs in the region and beyond. If reductions were now offered to all target groups, the general price level would have to be increased to cover the costs. This cannot be in the spirit of balanced and compatible pricing. Thus, every Austrian or international ski region singles out certain target groups for which they offer discounts. No ski region can offer discounts for all target groups."
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All the big ski areas seem to charge around £50 a day for a lift ticket. That’s a lot of money on top of everything else you need to go skiing. Missing a day is expensive when you are effectively paying £200 or more each day of a six day holiday. Presumably it’s become that expensive because costs have increased for staff, new lifts, projects, snow making, energy, pisting, leasing, taxation, maintenance, insurance etc.
There must still be plenty of small ski areas that are able to charge much less. These will be places that still have lots of surface lifts that are cheap to install, operate and maintain. They will probably rely on natural snow and not piste their runs every day. They may even be able to reduce their costs by working with volunteers.
For the British out on a six day ski holiday though, we will probably end up paying £300.
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You know it makes sense.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| ... the Chamonix pass, (22-23) 2,080 € and it gets you ... |
That sounds a lot, I tried to google and came up with €1172 for an adult season Mont Blanc Unlimited pass for last season - a bit of a disconnect there. And as far as I could tell from the website that was without an early booking discount, you may well be able to get a third off that price (well that is the discount for Evasion Mont Blanc alone).
But you should know.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| j b wrote: |
| under a new name wrote: |
| ... the Chamonix pass, (22-23) 2,080 € and it gets you ... |
That sounds a lot, I tried to google and came up with €1172 for an adult season Mont Blanc Unlimited pass for last season - a bit of a disconnect there. And as far as I could tell from the website that was without an early booking discount, you may well be able to get a third off that price (well that is the discount for Evasion Mont Blanc alone).
But you should know. |
Weve had an email about renewing our mont blanc unlimited year pass, its gone from 751euros last year to 851 this year seems a pretty big hike compared to last year, might look at the evasion one this time as we dont spend much time in cham/vallorcine etc . I dont think the evasion covers the st gervais tram though which we use on saturdays to get to les houches. I suppose we could drive round to avoid the tram.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@robs1, not sure you will save that much. With EMB previous season holders get a "private sale" offer of €744 but the regular earlybird deal is €822 so not much less than you are quoting for the MBU. And as you point out, the EMB pass doesn't include Les Houches (including the Tramway) which would be very nice to have as an add-on.
[Edit: just noticed you were talking about a whole year pass which would be €892 on earlybird EMB].
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| j b wrote: |
@robs1, not sure you will save that much. With EMB previous season holders get a "private sale" offer of €744 but the regular earlybird deal is €822 so not much less than you are quoting for the MBU. And as you point out, the EMB pass doesn't include Les Houches (including the Tramway) which would be very nice to have as an add-on.
[Edit: just noticed you were talking about a whole year pass which would be €892 on earlybird EMB]. |
Im not sure why they are offering us a year pass not a season, I wonder if we could change it but still benefit from the "special" price for previous customers, we like going to les Houches on saturdays as it is usually quieter than the other areas that day, I gues a lot of locals come to megeve and st G etc, last year a couple of times it just seemed to be us and the ski racers there
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@robs1, @under a new name, if there was an option we would certainly be interested in buying a combined EMB/Les Houches pass. However previous customers of EMB passes don't get the early discounts on MBU so it would cost a lot more.
Apparently there have been attempts to create a combined pass, but St G's approaches to Les Houches were rejected. I think there have been historical conflicts between the two communes on grazing rights and the exact boundary, then later on building ski lifts, and ill feeling still remains in the Les Houches Mairie.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Is that known as Derbyshire neck?
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@johnE, generally, yes, or, in the Alpes, Crétinism.
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@under a new name, I was given to understand it was just normal French local politics.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@j b, titter, well, yes, that too.
Or, the various lift companies...
Or, 
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Is it a case of season passes rising (relatively) more than daily/weekly passes or are they all going up by the same percentage?
My Epic pass arrived last week. It virtually paid for itself with the discount it got us on Whistler accommodation which softened the blow somewhat.
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FAQ
those prices were from Chamonix.net and I rechecked what they'd quoted - seemed steep to me 