 Poster: A snowHead
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| Grizzler wrote: |
In Austria I found that groups under instruction were a huge hazard.
10 adults lined up in the middle of quite a narrow steep slushy and busy section, before setting off on a follow me, learn to ski this horrid terrain session... (This appeared to be a private group session, not local ski school.)
The worst, though, was several instructors from the local school lining their beginner clients up just after the release point / top of a drag lift - and I mean literally just after - to have a chat. Another narrow area, though a bit further on was a wide open green slope. No way at all that anyone but an advanced skier or boarder could thread their way through the various groups, adults & children; even then, often the only advanced technique was an abrupt halt and a few very choice words.
The less advanced technique, for all other novice and intermediates, was to bail onto back bottom or hit someone.
Instructors clearly didn't give a fig.
And we wonder why the instructees never realised that this just might be an issue when they're on their own... |
At least you had groups with instructors!
The slopes in Bansko seemed pretty full of people who had booked a holiday, hired skis and then decided to work it out for themselves. At least 4 of our group of 10 suffered from collisions that could have been much worse than a dumping on their backsides.
Anyway [/grumpyoldskier]
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| garfy1971 wrote: |
The slopes in Bansko seemed pretty full of people who had booked a holiday, hired skis and then decided to work it out for themselves. At least 4 of our group of 10 suffered from collisions that could have been much worse than a dumping on their backsides.
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I came across exactly that, in my local Gym. I met the chap prior to his holiday, which included 3 days in Bansko a week or so before Christmas. Both he and his Girlfriend had never skied before. He said that they weren't taking lessons, as he liked to figure stuff out himself - and had watched some YouTube videos.
After a lot of persuasion, I talked him into a class on the first day, with the potential for more if that went well. He wasn't really convinced with the argument that he could be a danger to himself and everybody else.
I haven't seen him since, so don't know how he got on....or even if there was any snow.
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Youtube and online video streaming has a lot to answer for. It has definitely encouraged a subset of society that they can teach themselves anything and has de-valued and shortcut the entire process of actually learning a skill in a programmed and structured way. This might be okay if fixing your kitchen tap but when you are placing yourself in a hazardous environment when your f*ckwittery can injure others it is a different story.
I was on a trip recently with a friend who taught himself skiing. He can get down everything relatively safely but when conditions are either end of the bell curve he struggles. He also has some very obvious flaws in how he skis and stems turns from edge to edge. I tried to encourage him to do a few sessions with an instructor to drill down to the basics. No interest though. Ski instruction was a rip-off and he could 'get down the blacks' so why would he need instruction. Sadly this attitude seems to be more and more common nowadays.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| NoMapNoCompass wrote: |
I was on a trip recently with a friend who taught himself skiing. He can get down everything relatively safely but when conditions are either end of the bell curve he struggles. He also has some very obvious flaws in how he skis and stems turns from edge to edge. I tried to encourage him to do a few sessions with an instructor to drill down to the basics. No interest though. Ski instruction was a rip-off and he could 'get down the blacks' so why would he need instruction. Sadly this attitude seems to be more and more common nowadays. |
I really don't think it is. More common, that is. I remember when I'd done about three or four weeks' skiing claiming to be an expert because I could ski blacks, and that's nearly thirty years ago - I'd argue that this attitude was no more or less common then than it is now.
One way to encourage such people to improve is to make them aware of how much more effort they're having to put into it than you are (assuming this is true, or pick a good skier at random from the group). Yes, they can ski the same runs as you; yes, they can keep up with you; yes, if they're very fit (and young) they may not even feel that they need more recovery time than you; but take them down the gnarliest most tiring run they can imagine, get to the bottom and point out how much their thighs are burning or how much they're out of breath. Only then, when you point out that your legs are absolutely fine and you've not even broken a sweat, might they start to see some potential benefit in improving their technique.
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As a volleyball coach I've learnt over the years that some people over estimate and some under estimate their ability.
And also, I've learnt that some people have no self control or awareness so if they are playing with a beginner or youngster or in a social setting they will still try to cream the ball.
These are minorities - most people are sensible.
But we should always try to educate people and create safe environments. And yes ultimately but rarely take more drastic action.
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I had no problem as a late teen knowing my excellent fitness and great balance, from other sports, as well as teen confidence would get me down most things. I also knew that lessons were a big part of the holiday cost which could be “better” spent on other things.
I suspect many teens are still the same, but with YouTube to help them save money further.
Sigh…
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To be fair there is a lot of good information on youtube but what it can't do is provide you with the reps and real time feedback.
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| Layne wrote: |
| To be fair there is a lot of good information on youtube but what it can't do is provide you with the reps and real time feedback. |
Yep, I certainly don't think YouTube is a problem in of itself. There is a lot of good stuff on there to help people improve. I actually know someone that self taught just through YouTube and is now a pretty decent skier. I'm not suggesting it's optimal - he would have got to where he is much quicker with proper instruction.
The people that think they can teach themselves are the same overconfident guys that would regardless of YouTube.
If I was going to make an argument against YouTube it wouldn't be at the beginner/tutorial content, (in fact a lot have videos about safety elements, which may be more than your average ski school instructor covers!). It would be at glorifying dangerous/fast skiing. As much as I love the videos of Candide straightlining mogul fields with other skiers around, how many people then try doing similar things with a fraction of his skill level putting everyone at risk.
Edit: the rise of gopros and camera phones probably only fuel risk taking behaviour too as people want clips for their social media
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@boarder2020, I agree, I had a giggle last week when In madonna di campiglio, at the top of the nube doro the moguls were quite high, and sticky so it was best to just ski around them , or over them at a good pace, this lad, looking like a telly tubby, came from at speed, hit a mogul, then took fell in a puff of snow and tumbled at least 100 mtrs, down the slope. His friend was downslope from where he fell, so I skiied to the spot where he fell and picked up his skis, both were side by side like a pair of slippers, they hit the mogul and he kept going. I offered to carry his skis down to him, but his friend refused saying she would look after them. She then realised she was unable to ski down carrying the skis so he had to do the walk of shame up the hill. ( thankfully unhurt) I told him when I met him to PLEASE put that clip on youtube.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Chaletbeauroc wrote: |
| I'd argue that this attitude was no more or less common then than it is now. |
100%, it's just human nature, and it's not evolved one iota in that time period.
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| One way to encourage such people to improve is to ... |
I'm not sure I'd want to encourage them to ski better; safer sure.
Perhaps if someone is happy with their "park stance" or "back foot riding", that's fine and dandy.
And anyway it makes me feel better as an old codger than I can carve rings around those people all day 
---
My buddies all learnt the same way I did - all self taught athletes until they were coached to race.
If someone asked me how to learn, I'd suggest instruction, but that's because they had to ask.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Some skills are best taught in a programmed way.
I'm a pilot, I didn't just watch Youtube and have a go. The possibility of me injuring myself or others would have been pretty high. Aviation is a domain with a real safety culture for obvious reasons, there is no reason why skiing should be different. Thankfully things like the PisteXCode are aiming to do that and rightly so.
On the one hand we have people saying have a go and teach yourself. On the other hand today I watched someone with very limited ability skiing on their own and nearly ploughing into an ESF line of kids. Everything was wrong with how they skied, in the backseat, no weight over the outside ski, no control. They were a hazard as a result. I completely agree that some people coming from other sports can pick up skiing very quickly and will be competent and safe on the slopes very quickly. But the way to find that out is not through Darwinism.
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
Yep, I certainly don't think YouTube is a problem in of itself. There is a lot of good stuff on there to help people improve. I actually know someone that self taught just through YouTube and is now a pretty decent skier. I'm not suggesting it's optimal - he would have got to where he is much quicker with proper instruction.
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The other aspect is how many people watch the drills on Youtube and then spend a morning lapping a blue, getting feedback and developing and improving.
More likely is watch Youtube, but carry on trying to ski the reds and blacks while occasionally remembering what they observed online the night before.
Again, ski instruction is a structured learning environment, take as many variables out of the system and drill down into specific skills.
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You know it makes sense.
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You are blaming the tool, when the person user it is at fault.
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More likely is watch Youtube, but carry on trying to ski the reds and blacks while occasionally remembering what they observed online the night before.
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And you think lots that pay for instruction don't do exactly the same once they are on their own?
Edit: fwiw I think instruction is a better way to go than YouTube for beginners. I just don't think you can blame tutorial videos aimed at helping people improve their skiing for any increase in dangerous skiing. As I said before I think the YouTube videos showing pros and over confident intermediates doing crazy things would be more likely to influence intermediate skiers to do dangerous things.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Learning from YouTube is great, and far better than books or methods of old, but my suspicion is that it barely mentions etiquette, and certainly doesn’t remind the viewer at the moment when they breach it. That would be my main concern.
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Poster: A snowHead
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The big changes happened earlier. Fundamentals in 2012 were already same as now, at least in the major resorts. Maybe worse in some respects.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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2012? When did someone post the news report about those young disrespectful “snowboarders” being banned from mountains in California in the mid-80s?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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In my opinion it is a multitude of the above issues all coming together in one perfect storm - but I do agree that there seems to be a drop in understanding of piste etiquette that causes the problems.
1. people on skis they cannot handle - good point above about fat skis being used when carvers would serve better.
2. Helmets and goggles cause vision issues - its like a horse wearing blinkers. I have succumbed to the helmet bollox but feel far more "controlled" with the peripheral vision of a hat and sunnies, or goggles in bad weather/wind. Having my swede in just a hat reminds me that I have to be in control. Helmets induce a false feeling of protection.
3. Cameras/Go Pros in the hands of moving skiers on piste - i would ban them, unless helmet/jacket mounted.
4. resorts to carry the piste code more visibly on lifts and on in resort notice boards - a lot of the things I have noticed go back to the simple rule that "person in front has right of way" and "when entering a piste check up the slope to see what is coming"
5. Slow lifts were nice on a lot of occasions (except in biting winds or cold) and added to the ambience of a trip - less people were starting their descents at the same time as you so the number of skiers on a hill at one time was less - good points made about this.
6. I don't necessarily agree with the piste bashing theory - maybe cos of the lift pace people used to ski on pistes befitting ability a little more a few years ago.
It could though be as simple as what we see in life generally though - that individuals, because of the growth in technology, simply lack the common sense they did 10 years ago. The populace frequently reveals itself to be thick as shite these days
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Or it could just be a load of old duffers whining on about the good old days.
Remind you of anywhere?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Yellow Snow, Be careful about the "person in front has right of way" lol There are some on here that will argue to the nth degree that it is not the case, there are exceptions, it doesn't override either aspects etc. The truth is, if everyone had that maxim there would be fewer accidents though.
The vision thing with helmets is utter nonsense though. I can see and hear perfectly well with my helmet and goggles on. The only reason your peripheral vision would be impaired is a badly fitting helmet or goggles that are too small.
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| zikomo wrote: |
@Yellow Snow, Be careful about the "person in front has right of way" lol There are some on here that will argue to the nth degree that it is not the case, there are exceptions, it doesn't override either aspects etc. The truth is, if everyone had that maxim there would be fewer accidents though.
The vision thing with helmets is utter nonsense though. I can see and hear perfectly well with my helmet and goggles on. The only reason your peripheral vision would be impaired is a badly fitting helmet or goggles that are too small. |
I am afraid we will have to beg to differ on the helmet thing - I have a big square head, I must admit, but the ear bits of a helmet and the general closed in feeling cannot aid the feeling of being able to see all around you - it is impossible, so vision must be less if not actually impeded.
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I don't actually get the big problem here. Yes, there's all sorts of minor contributory aspects, piste and uplift entry design not least. And the lack of instructors drumming safe behaviour into pupils, of all and any ages, right from the start.
But mostly I always come back to a very simple - perhaps worrying - observation: most of these people are allowed to drive a car, aren't they? Would they pull out or change lanes without looking behind then or use their mirrors? Would they do their drills and practice manoevres in the middle of a busy rush hour road whilst looking at nothing more than their feet or the poles held dutifully out in front of them? Would they stop in the middle of a motorway? Would they drive drunk? Would they generally drive with no aim but to prove how missile-like they can be (um, actually, sometimes yes...).
OK, I'm a motorbike rider, but it really isn't hard to glance over my shoulder, even with a rucksac and stuff neck, whilst changing directions on skis or on a board; and to be aware of who's in front of or to the side of me, and what they're doing.
But then again, there's this 'we're on holiday' thing. People switch off all awareness and common sense, and it's all just this big fun 'safe' self-centred thing (not just seen on the slopes by any means).
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| Yellow Snow wrote: |
| zikomo wrote: |
The vision thing with helmets is utter nonsense though. I can see and hear perfectly well with my helmet and goggles on. The only reason your peripheral vision would be impaired is a badly fitting helmet or goggles that are too small. |
I am afraid we will have to beg to differ on the helmet thing - I have a big square head, I must admit, but the ear bits of a helmet and the general closed in feeling cannot aid the feeling of being able to see all around you - it is impossible, so vision must be less if not actually impeded. |
It's either less, i.e. actually impeded, or it's not. And I agree that goggles will nearly always reduce peripheral vision, but I don't think the helmet would make any difference to that, unless it was forcing you to wear smaller goggles to fit, in which case a different one might be in order. I much prefer my wrap-around Oakley sunglasses for that reason, and only resort to goggles in the most extreme of conditions, whether wearing a helmet or not.
Hearing is another matter though. My helmet has removable ear pieces, so 90% of the time I wear it (which is pretty much only when I'm teaching) I don't have them attached. When it's too cold I'm definitely aware of the resulting loss of hearing, both while skiing and while stopped talking with a group.
Another factor may be that the weight of a helmet could make head movement slower, so people aren't looking around them so much. Not sure about this, TBH, just a thought.
So do helmets work to make skiers more dangerous, less aware? Maybe a little bit, and there's also the old "risk compensation" argument, but there have always been people who saw nothing, heard nothing, of their fellow skiers, especially if they're playing music in headphones, and I don't really think that helmet use on its own is a significant issue, nor, as I said earlier, that things have got worse over the last twenty odd years, during which time helmet use has gone from something like 20% to 80% of people on the slopes (numbers gratuitously invented by me).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| zikomo wrote: |
@Yellow Snow, Be careful about the "person in front has right of way" lol There are some on here that will argue to the nth degree that it is not the case, there are exceptions, it doesn't override either aspects etc. The truth is, if everyone had that maxim there would be fewer accidents though.
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Of course there are exceptions - that's why the other bits were put in the code. To attempt to stop numpties doing WTF they like when setting off blind into traffic or joining runs from the side. Or standing in the middle of cat tracks etc.
It's not people who are aware of the exceptions that are the real problem. It's the people who blissfully think their behaviour is someone else's problem.
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I think we should start at the basics before getting too much into the nuances. When I learned to ski the FIS Rules were pasted everywhere ... and frequently also printed on the reverse of the lift pass.
This season I've already encountered too much stupidity and a lot of it does appear (and I completely accept that my anecdotal evidence is not data) to be people who have skied minimally and simply don't know the rules. Blocking of narrow pistes seems to be a key one along with choosing to stop in the middle of a piste and starting to ski without checking uphill first. Put that together with people who are not fully in control on hard/icy pistes and you've got all the ingredients for much higher accident rates. I've definitely seen more accidents this season than previously and had to stop and help at a couple.
I do think that much more promotion of the rules could have a positive impact; it's easy to assume malicious intent where my suspicion is that it's more just a lack of knowledge/forethought.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Having witnessed a few collisions caused by out of control users I said to Mr E “if someone hits me and tries to get away go after them, don’t attend to me other people will help, I want the swine caught so they can be held accountable.”
I then decided to label mountain users who are so irresponsible they are likely to collide with others causing serious injury ‘torskidos’ because are just as dangerous as torpedos.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Extremophile wrote: |
| .... “if someone hits me and tries to get away go after them, don’t attend to me other people will help, I want the swine caught so they can be held accountable.”. |
Exactly what I told Mr G when I was hit and sent somersaulting. Actually, no-one did stop to help me; not even to ask if OK. (Something else increasingly lacking, sadly.) But after he'd eventually caught the said "swine"(ess) he came back up and flagged down a passing boarder to help.
Upshot, however, was with an English person injured in Austria by a Polish person, even though the Austrian Police did get involved, the insurance companies couldn't be bothered, and without independent witnesses the out of control skier got away with it (well, I suppose that the Police visit might have worried her a tad...).
So catch the witnesses first!
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English person injured in Austria by a Polish person, even though the Austrian Police
@Grizzler, I thought that was going to be one of those jokes.
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You know it makes sense.
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No, there would have to be an Irishman
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| zikomo wrote: |
@Yellow Snow, Be careful about the "person in front has right of way" lol There are some on here that will argue to the nth degree that it is not the case, there are exceptions, it doesn't override either aspects etc. The truth is, if everyone had that maxim there would be fewer accidents though.
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Of course there are exceptions - that's why the other bits were put in the code. To attempt to stop numpties doing WTF they like when setting off blind into traffic or joining runs from the side. Or standing in the middle of cat tracks etc.
It's not people who are aware of the exceptions that are the real problem. It's the people who blissfully think their behaviour is someone else's problem. |
Yes there are exceptions. And yes you should take action to protect yourself. And yes everyone should follow all the rules all of the time.
But what is missed is the explicit responsibility placed on slope users to avoid those below them on the slope. The rule related to this states you must allow for “ANY voluntary or involuntary movement” on the part of the downhill slope user. I just don’t get the equivocation. If you ski into someone from behind, it is indeed your responsibility. Regardless of what they have done. It is absolutely clear in how the rule is written.
I certainly do not assume that those above me on the slope will fully accept that responsibility, and accept my responsibility to not cause un-necessary risk to myself or others. I drum this into the kids and my students, that it is critical that they mitigate the risk to themselves by assuming others will not. But that does not mean it is acceptable to somehow argue that the uphill skier is not responsible for avoiding anyone below them. As the discussion that always ensues here when this topic comes up, there are many slope users who do not accept their responsibility when they are the uphill slope user.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| zikomo wrote: |
| ... And yes everyone should follow all the rules all of the time. |
No, The FIS precisely state just before their list of rules so you cannot possibly avoid it: "These are to be used for guidance only".
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@phil_w, Yes, it's a bit like the "rules of the road", aka the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea, that I had to learn off by heart when I was a Merchant Navy cadet ,one of the first of which reads (yes, I had to look it up) :
"2 (b) In construing and complying with these rules, due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger."
Basically, apply common sense, cos there may be times when sticking to the letter of the rules puts you or someone else in danger. It's recognising that other circumstances, including the possibility of someone else not sticking to the rules, may require you to disobey the rules in order to minimise or avoid a collision.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@zikomo, If you ski into someone from behind, it is indeed your responsibility
I agree with what you are saying, however, consider this example. You are happily skiing down a fairly narrow track lined with trees. Suddenly , someone hidden from you by the trees, skis onto the track right in front of you and you run into them. In this case I'd say the downhill skier is in the wrong.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Today on 'You are the Umpire: Skiers Edition' a play off between rules 2 and 5...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| eblunt wrote: |
I agree with what you are saying, however, consider this example. You are happily skiing down a fairly narrow track lined with trees. Suddenly , someone hidden from you by the trees, skis onto the track right in front of you and you run into them. In this case I'd say the downhill skier is in the wrong. |
If the downhill skier started from a concealed position without first trying to look up the hill then they hold some responsibility.
But if you are the party skiing down a narrow run and there are concealed parts of the piste, be they blind corners or rollers then you should anticipate there being someone present and control speed appropriately.
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| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
| Today on 'You are the Umpire: Skiers Edition' a play off between rules 2 and 5... |
If Rule 2 were paramount Rule 5 would be redundant.
As Rule 5 does exist I assume it is intended to trump Rule 2 so in that situation the uphill skier is not to blame.
On the other hand these rules are only selectively written into (civil) law e.g. in Colorado, they are not drafted as law and thus do not have to be unambiguous etc. To my mind it's pretty poor that some pretty experienced people want to have some absolutist reductionism but not as poor as those who just make up their own rules by trying to draw traffic analogies on lanes etc.
True confession : On Saturday I was doing short turns in a narrowish corridor down the fall line of a wide piste. Some less skilled skier went past me and then immediately turned and stopped right in my line. I did call him a complete fickwut as I avoided him. If you pass someone it doesn't immediately place all responsibility on the passed skier for you to do whatever the feck you like.
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It's difficult, as any sanction (e.g. confiscating lift passes) would need written rules and some kind of "due process".
Speed limits in busy areas, round intersections, near lifts etc are the obvious thing (just as they are around schools) as they are measurable. But they'd be desperately unpopular.
If people find anxiety about potential crashes is spoiling their enjoyment they clearly need to consider their choice of timing/resort and perhaps try to get the risks into proportion, maybe with some kind of therapy. It's the same with "fear of flying". Folk who are an absolute mess at the thought of getting in a plane think nothing of whanging round in their cars breaking the speed limit. Applied to my daughter in law..... But she sorted out the flying thing thanks to an excellent programme offered by easyJet, and as for the other, she was impressed by the "speed awareness" course. 
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I think its taken as read that (certainly in my own mind) that Rule One (respect other mountain users) trumps all rules, and were it applied liberally then pretty much every other rule becomes a subsection of that. That said, I think it also has to be taken that the FIS intent was that there was not supposed to be a priority in the numbering of rules and that each should be taken with equal priority, ultimately with the total of those equalling that more general purpose of Rule One - they being aspects of respect and responsibility.
Going to @eblunts scenario, I would ask, 1. how quickly was the piste skier travelling, 2. How busy was the piste track, 3. how oblique did the off-piste skier rejoin the piste?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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While snowboarding last weekend I have not seen a single person to look uphill when joining "the traffic". Even though I'm still earning and riding quite slowly it caused a near-hit couple times. Is stopping in the middle of a narrow curve now a rule? Foggy conditions, narrow curve and a "do not stop" sign and yet that's the place people choose to stop next to each other.
However, I met lots of people willing to help too. Couple people offered a pole or a push when i got stuck on a flat. So, it's not just a bad experience but it makes me anxious when with kids.
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Thing that really hacks me off is being on a fairly wide, quiet piste. I tend to try and stay out of the way, and ski down one of the sides close to the piste markers. I'm still shocked at why people bombing down need to squeeze through the 50cm cap between me and the edge of the piste, whilst there is 25 metres of wide open unoccupied piste to the other side of me.
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