 Poster: A snowHead
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I just know what Carv would say about my tortured body …
My right leg would emerge as a really competent skier and my left leg would suffer an identity crises due to its low scores…
Having an ACL really helps in skiing - lacking one is usually an impediment
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Weathercam, thank you but there’s no finding out to be done 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I'm quite tempted to try CARV in a snowboarding boot and see how freaked out it gets "YOU'RE LEANING TOO FAR FORWARDS!" "NOW TOO FAR BACKWARDS!" "ARRGH DO SOME TURNS!!! AND STOP SIDESLIPPING EVERYWHERE!"
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@Richard_Sideways, Carv ought to work for snowboarding : toe/heel pressure and timing differences to see if you're torsionally twisting. Maybe even big toe/little toe refinement calibrated to what binding angles you are running.
They just need to invest in the algo. And then watch as the literal cents roll in from freespirited boarders who won't bow down to the man.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| under a new name wrote: |
I'm not convinced (go on then, try to convince me!) that Ross was anyway in advance of the technique, but I do think he was an inspired teacher and explainer.
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Like you, I started my first tentative attempts to ski in the early 70s. I had classes over the next decade in Switzerland, Scotland, Italy and France. There were differences in emphasis in different countries - but the one thing that was constant through all the styles was, Up Unweighting with Pole Plant and turning around the Pole....and Short Turns were Short Swings, facing down the hill, with a good edge check to help spring into the next turn and a solid pole plant to aid timing and stability.
At no point, in any of those classes (we went for 2 weeks in those days) did anybody explain anything. You were told what to do, how to do it - but not why you did it. Ali Ross was pioneering because he explained the "Why". I am someone who is greatly helped by understanding the "Why"....rather than blindly following an instruction, without understanding the reason for it.
I had never given the shape of the ski and how to efficiently use its design to turn, any real thought. I did not link the movements being made, with countering the forces experienced in the turn. The "Down-Up-Down" movement was something that you did by "Bending ze knees" - rather than something that was a by product of your height raising and lowering as a result of the hips dropping inside the turn and then crossing over to the other side. I had not realised the "Potential Energy" that was created and then released by the body, when creating the "Coiled Spring" in Short Turns and Moguls.
Now, if you can think of any other instructor or teaching system, that stepped outside the very rigid teaching methods of that time - I would be interested to hear about it.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Thu 9-02-23 12:59; edited 1 time in total
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| Old Fartbag wrote: |
| Now, if you can think of any other instructor or teaching system, that stepped outside the very rigid teaching methods of that time - I would be interested to hear about it. |
You could have read Georges Joubert's books.
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@rjs, or, indeed, one of the early chapters of “We learned to ski”… my cooy is somewhere deep in storage or I’d post a pic
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| rjs wrote: |
| Old Fartbag wrote: |
| Now, if you can think of any other instructor or teaching system, that stepped outside the very rigid teaching methods of that time - I would be interested to hear about it. |
You could have read Georges Joubert's books. |
No I haven't - and by the sound of it, I wish I had been aware of them back then.
Horizons for interested enthusiasts were very limited back in the 70s and early 80s. There was no Internet or Forums to get educated by those with a more in depth understanding.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| @rjs, or, indeed, one of the early chapters of “We learned to ski”… my cooy is somewhere deep in storage or I’d post a pic |
...In which Ali Ross was a contributor - adding to my view he was pioneering. 
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@Old Fartbag, I think hevwas very good, not pioneering, unless in the limited anglophone sense
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
In which Ali Ross was a contributor - adding to my view he was pioneering
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Wasn't he the guy who did the painting show on telly?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| @Richard_Sideways, Carv ought to work for snowboarding |
Waaay back when they were touting CARV on SH back when they launched, I did suggest it, but you're right, Snowboarders are ornery SoBs so we'd probably rail against 'The Man' telling us we're riding it wrong... maybe just a constant stream of Californiaisms when we 'Do It Right'... Gnar Dude! - Awesome! - Woah! - Bogus! and such and such.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| ... Carv ought to work for snowboarding ... |
You can obviously measure stuff, but that doesn't mean it's useful.
There's a much wider range of styles in snowboarding than skiing, in my view. As @boarder2020 pointed out, in most sports variation increases with skill level, and that's how it works with snowboarding. That's the opposite to what these novice skiers are aiming for, trying to copy their Carv ideal skier. Snowboarding isn't as heavily "ski school" focused as skiing, so orthodoxy is harder to spread I think.
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You know it makes sense.
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| ski wrote: |
| Quote: |
Which I often see when teaching couples, where the man generally skis faster (and thinks he is the better skier) but the woman is the actual the better skier. Same in spey casting which I also teach, ladies listen and learn carefully and end up sending line out just as far with 50% of the effort the men are putting in for the same effect!
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See this many times. You forgot to mention that the man is usually covered in sweat  |
Yes!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| phil_w wrote: |
| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| ... Carv ought to work for snowboarding ... |
You can obviously measure stuff, but that doesn't mean it's useful.
There's a much wider range of styles in snowboarding than skiing, in my view. As @boarder2020 pointed out, in most sports variation increases with skill level, and that's how it works with snowboarding. That's the opposite to what these novice skiers are aiming for, trying to copy their Carv ideal skier. Snowboarding isn't as heavily "ski school" focused as skiing, so orthodoxy is harder to spread I think. |
Oh yeah I totally agree with that but think in some areas such as soft boot carving (or even hard boot carving) it's ability in identifying timing differences might encourage good technique. I think it would probably be a 1 or 2 day thing for people could already sort of do it not a way of getting people from noob to WC slalomer. But I suspect Carv have already identified that skiers are a far easier market to sell tech toys to.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| under a new name wrote: |
| @Old Fartbag, I think hevwas very good, not pioneering, unless in the limited anglophone sense |
IMV. He was pioneering in the "Ski Teaching" sense.
There may well have been people writing books, that were ahead of their time....but most people, who went on ski holidays, were completely unaware of them and the teaching methods of that day did not reflect those more inspirational ideas.
Now, I am looking at this from my own experience - and someone who had an appetite for further understanding - so did try and found out. I had books/videos from the likes of Martin Heckleman, Karen and Michael Liebreich (The Complete Skier is an excellent book) and Lito Tejada-Flores (Bumps and Powder), the SCGB instructional video....and more recently Warren Smith, Phil Smith etc
But it was Ali Ross that first helped with my understanding (and I don't think I'm alone in that)....and was much more easily accessible, not least as he became well known among the skiing community in the UK.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I have a 1986 book called "skiing" by "Mittermaier and Neureuther". It may be ghost written of course. The word "carve" doesn't appear there; I'm pretty sure I heard it first from Ross. This "skiing" book seems to me to have zero physics in it, a remarkable achievement. Concepts like force, momentum or acceleration don't exist here... it's all about "form", I think, and there's a lot of it.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| ski wrote: |
| Quote: |
Which I often see when teaching couples, where the man generally skis faster (and thinks he is the better skier) but the woman is the actual the better skier. Same in spey casting which I also teach, ladies listen and learn carefully and end up sending line out just as far with 50% of the effort the men are putting in for the same effect!
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See this many times. You forgot to mention that the man is usually covered in sweat |
And that the man is usually telling the woman what she's doing wrong all the time so she genuinely doesn't realise just how much better she is, or could be if he'd only let her.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Thu 9-02-23 13:59; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
... Carv ought to work for snowboarding ...
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My initial thoughts on this is that would probably need Carv to be aware of binding angles, which would probably need some manual configuration. It would also mean that Carv would need to do a load of testing across binding angles to verify their output
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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No mention of John Shedden’s “Skilful Skiing” published a year before Ali Ross’ “How We Learned to Ski”. A bit before my time but I think Shedden had more of an influence on British ski teaching than Ali Ross. Joubert’s “Skiing, an art, a technique” (if I remember the title correctly) predates them both and still feels remarkably modern despite the changes in ski design.
https://www.skiinghistory.org/lives/georges-joubert
An appreciation of Joubert by Ron LeMaster, sadly missed.
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| Chaletbeauroc wrote: |
| ski wrote: |
| Quote: |
Which I often see when teaching couples, where the man generally skis faster (and thinks he is the better skier) but the woman is the actual the better skier. Same in spey casting which I also teach, ladies listen and learn carefully and end up sending line out just as far with 50% of the effort the men are putting in for the same effect!
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See this many times. You forgot to mention that the man is usually covered in sweat |
And that the man is usually telling the woman what she's doing wrong all the time so she genuinely doesn't realise just how much better she is, or could be if he'd only let her. |
YUP! It's like that, and not just in skiing!
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The developers at carv were looking for people to work on developing a snowboard algorithm. Obviously it would take some work, but don't see an issue why you couldn't do it. Don't even think binding angles (outside the very extremes) should effect things too much - although I obviously haven't tested that.
If there's a market for it is a completely different question.
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| pam w wrote: |
| I don't think I could cope with an instructor feedingback in my ears. When I've skied with rob@rar I've been very impressed with his focussed, doable, feedback. He gives you one thing to think about - then the next time you lap down the run he can actually tell if you're trying to put it into action. One thing. |
I agree. Having an external running commentary in your ears while you are trying to ski, even when you are training rather than skiing, would be counterproductive. A few years ago skimottaret and I were asked to trial Bluetooth headphone/microphone devices which were designed to work with ski helmets or worn under a hat. Tried it with a couple of clients, including one skier who was blind, but soon abandoned it as unhelpful. It’s just too much for the learner to process, so interferes with what they are trying to achieve. I try to encourage people to ski with “a quiet mind” and tune in to what they can feel coming through their skis; and when they are training to have one focus at a time. It’s bad enough when people ski with an inner voice trying to constantly give them a range of instructions, if that were a genuine external voice in their ear(s) I really don’t think it would help improve their skiing.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
No mention of John Shedden’s “Skilful Skiing” published a year before Ali Ross’ “How We Learned to Ski”. A bit before my time but I think Shedden had more of an influence on British ski teaching than Ali Ross. Joubert’s “Skiing, an art, a technique” (if I remember the title correctly) predates them both and still feels remarkably modern despite the changes in ski design.
https://www.skiinghistory.org/lives/georges-joubert
An appreciation of Joubert by Ron LeMaster, sadly missed. |
Interesting.
How long ago did you become aware of these books....and was it after you got interested in ski instruction?
The problem as I see it, is how did an interested Amateur like myself become aware that these books even existed, back in 1976-1983. Nothing that I witnessed in the teaching of the European countries covered the "why". They were often too busy telling you, that what you were taught in a different country, was all wrong. 
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@Old Fartbag, at about the time I became interested in teaching. The work of people like Joubert and Shedden weren’t a part of the ski instructor pathway I was on, at least not specifically referenced, but I guess it had become a habit for me to ‘read around’ whatever topic I was studying or working on. The coaches I skied with (from the early 1990s) were all well aware of the instructors like Shedden who had done much to lead the thinking on ski teaching in the UK and further afield.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| @Old Fartbag, at about the time I became interested in teaching. The work of people like Joubert and Shedden weren’t a part of the ski instructor pathway I was on, at least not specifically referenced, but I guess it had become a habit for me to ‘read around’ whatever topic I was studying or working on. The coaches I skied with (from the early 1990s) were all well aware of the instructors like Shedden who had done much to lead the thinking on ski teaching in the UK and further afield. |
Being in "The skiing Instructor circle" and mixing with Coaches, was thus a big help.....and of course, an inquisitive mind.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| abc wrote: |
| Steve Angus wrote: |
| zikomo wrote: |
| @Weathercam....Another thing you get is terrain snobbery ("I'm good because I can get down a black"), which is also strange, not least as one man's definition of steep/challenging is very different from another's. And a good blue piste is there to be enjoyed too. And actually, especially off-piste, gentler slopes can be more challenging to ski well. |
You sound just like me there -
Anyway at the end of the day for most people most of the time the only way you can compare yourself to a n other person is a) what run(s) you ski (irrespective of whether its the flatter part of that run just after its been pisted or not etc) and b) did you crash or not. For all its failings at least ski racing and or freestyle are relatively easy to compare like for like. In the same way one persons 'fast' is another persons 'slow' on the slopes. A person 'out of control' is another persons 'totally in control'... all quite hard to qualify sometimes! |
C) How and how quickly you get to the bottom of the lift
Just about anyone can ski slowly and carefully down most blacks. But to do it in good style and good speed takes skills. |
Perhaps to an extent. Often people find speed control and issue and gravity takes over though!
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davidof - classic.... and the "What we might have to learn down the line that we fear we dont know yet" - haha
zikomo - above thats spot on re male / female teaching observations.... and the gs / sl technique argument - yup
Old Fartbag - Martin Heckleman is a friend of mine here in Val.
Chaletbeauroc - indeed!
rob@rar - agreed
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You know it makes sense.
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| Steve Angus wrote: |
Old Fartbag - Martin Heckleman is a friend of mine here in Val. |
Now why doesn't that surprise me. 
He did/does have a straightforward way of explaining things that decomplicated them, thus making them easier to understand.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| pam w wrote: |
| I don't think I could cope with an instructor feedingback in my ears. When I've skied with rob@rar I've been very impressed with his focussed, doable, feedback. He gives you one thing to think about - then the next time you lap down the run he can actually tell if you're trying to put it into action. One thing. |
I agree. Having an external running commentary in your ears while you are trying to ski, even when you are training rather than skiing, would be counterproductive. A few years ago skimottaret and I were asked to trial Bluetooth headphone/microphone devices which were designed to work with ski helmets or worn under a hat. Tried it with a couple of clients, including one skier who was blind, but soon abandoned it as unhelpful. It’s just too much for the learner to process, so interferes with what they are trying to achieve. I try to encourage people to ski with “a quiet mind” and tune in to what they can feel coming through their skis; and when they are training to have one focus at a time. It’s bad enough when people ski with an inner voice trying to constantly give them a range of instructions, if that were a genuine external voice in their ear(s) I really don’t think it would help improve their skiing. |
It's ok if that inner voice is Marvin Gaye or Dave Vanian or Feargal Sharkey.
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Poster: A snowHead
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And ladies and gentlemen on this chilly Friday morning, -11...
Ski évolutif?
My OH was taught this way in ADH, luckily I had yet to meet her 
Think the Manchester could be a bit hard this morning!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Steve Angus wrote: |
| abc wrote: |
Just about anyone can ski slowly and carefully down most blacks. But to do it in good style and good speed takes skills. |
Perhaps to an extent. Often people find speed control an issue and gravity takes over though! |
Quite so. IME it's much more difficult for intermediates to ski slowly and in control, nice round turns all the way.
Anyone can ski fast, if they survive long enough.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Chaletbeauroc wrote: |
IME it's much more difficult for intermediates to ski slowly and in control, nice round turns all the way.
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Slow demoes, the graveyard of aspiring ski instructors
"Now demontrate us that move slowly and in control so the students can see it"
Speed covers a lot of sins.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Fri 10-02-23 11:07; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Steve Angus, Then their is the French book "Comment nous avons suivi un mono de l'ESF toute la matinée et ne rien appris"
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Fri 10-02-23 11:06; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Weathercam wrote: |
Ski évolutif?
My OH was taught this way in ADH, luckily I had yet to meet her
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Lady F was taught that way in Les Arcs.
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@Old Fartbag, "We learned to ski" was a Sunday Times publication and iirc (I was quite little) was heavily promoted/presumably published in the paper. My parents bought it when it came out.
It definitely discusses carving, although somewhat briefly as being "advanced". It also briefly discusses the "Jet turn" ... 
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| under a new name wrote: |
@Old Fartbag, "We learned to ski" was a Sunday Times publication and iirc (I was quite little) was heavily promoted/presumably published in the paper. My parents bought it when it came out.
It definitely discusses carving, although somewhat briefly as being "advanced". It also briefly discusses the "Jet turn" ... |
I bought it out of interest, when I became aware of it as a result of How we learned to ski, 10 years later.
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| Quote: |
The work of people like Joubert and Shedden weren’t a part of the ski instructor pathway I was on
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The work of John Shedden was very much part of the ESC (now Snowsport England) pathway. "Skillful Skiing" and "Skiing - Developing Your Skill" were pretty much required reading. Pretty sure the ASSI certificate includes the word Skillful.
@Old Fartbag,
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that what you were taught in a different country, was all wrong.
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One of the things specifically mention in JS' books!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| ski wrote: |
One of the things specifically mention in JS' books! |
As time has gone by and I have become more knowledgeable, I have come to realise there is no one "Right" way....but in the early days, when a suave local Ski Instructor, who skied beautifully, said this is what you should do (and pulled you up for doing what you were told last year), it all got a bit confusing.
In Italy, I was told to face down the falline at all times. When I went to France, they saw me contorting myself to face the F/Line in Long Turns - and said to allow the upper body to follow the skis - which felt much more natural. In Switzerland, I was told to plant my pole in Moguls, with the elbow tucked in and the wrist bent back. In France I was told to plant the pole in short turns no further forward than the toe of my boot, as it would block the turn - but I had previously been taught to plant it much further forward.
When I went to the States, they were trying to reduce Knee Angulation (due to risk of injury) and go more for angulation at the hip.
One thing that seemed common across all the systems that I attended back then, was that the U/Hill ski should be seen as little more than a outrigger ie. an aid to balance (and should have little weight on it) - You only had to worry about the D/Hill knee, which angled in, causing an A Frame - which wasn't seen as a problem. Italy liked you to ski with your legs together - and while France advocated a wider stance, the Instructor floated about with their legs together. The one thing I liked about BASI, is the Instructor skied in exactly the same way that they were telling you to do.
Then, just prior to carving skis being introduced - there was a rethink about how the U/Hill ski should be used - and reducing the pronounced Up movement, by replacing it with Foot Steering.
Rightly or wrongly, that was my memory of it.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Sun 12-02-23 13:05; edited 8 times in total
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I have a couple of 1987 publications which I think are apposite to talk of Ross etc. Neither is aimed at absolute beginners but both cover basic technique.- Ali Ross's "on skiing".
- Martyn Hurn's "skiing real snow" published in 1987.
Ross starts with an explanation of how a ski works. He points out that "The ski will turn you" along with a diagram of a ski's sidecut. He liberally (and correctly) uses concepts like "force". He challenges the idea that beginners should turn skis differently from racers, which he specifically says holds back recreational skiers:
| Ali Ross p11 wrote: |
| "Progress in skiing, I believe, comes not through following step-by-step set pieces - 'now you can do snow-plough turns, let's move on to basic swings - but rather through a thorough understanding and awareness of what is responsible for creating good skiing". |
Hurn's book lays out the those very "steps" Ross is sceptical of. His section on Joubert (pp76-77) is not connected to the other stuff and feels out of place. The chapters on Monoskiing/ Snowboards explicitly deny the obvious similarity in mechanics between all three devices. Hurn explicitly acknowledges Seddon... so was Seddon's 1982 book closer to Hurn or Ross?
I'd say those two approaches, both from badged BASI people, are about as different as you can get. Hurn describes the typical ski school approach of the time.
Ross makes that orthodoxy look a little silly, which is how it felt to me at the time.
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FAQ
