Everytime I go skiing I mean to ask this question upon my return, then I forget. Until now, obviously:
Like a lot of us, I imagine, when I'm sitting on a lift that runs above a piste I watch the skiers below. Amongst those I consider to be 'good' skiers (obviously subjective I know) there are what appear to be two distinct styles of skiing. One style is ankles and knees always together, almost like the skier is on a monoski, with lots of lateral hip movement. This style seems to predominate amongst older skiers, although I've seen plenty of young-looking people doing it too. The other style is feet slightly wider than shoulder width, with perhaps a little more fore and aft body movement and knee and hip flexion, although this might be in my imagination. This seems to be a style used by younger skiers, and I've noticed many of the younger ESF instructors using it, although some also ski with the legs tightly together style.
So, are these actually 2 distinct styles of skiing, with their own schools of thought, or just people naturally adapting to their different body types?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@greengriff, ....mainly habit deriving from when a skier initially learned. Up to 1990s...straight skis no pronounced carving skis....skis turning due to precise weighting of the ski into a curved structure....put them together. From mid 1990s....X Screams, Dynastar Omeglas etc...just turn ski onto edge...keep them hip/shoulder width apart...unweight to turn but use curved edge of ski to turn. That’s the main reason, I think....residue from initial learning and the training orthodoxy of the time.
There’s a breed of ‘fat skis held together, lean back and plummet down the fall line....’ which started to appear all over the mountain after Candide Thovex dropped his first (and wonderful) video after his big accident on Big Bertha ...something which I see every now and again...and in the wrong hands (legs?) is a threat to human life....
The former style is sometimes known as "mincing like an old Frenchman". But I expect old Austrians used to do it too.
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The wider stance would also seem to facilitate easier recovery of a sudden slide as well?
After all it is free
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valais2 wrote:
´lean back and plummet down the fall line....’ Candide Thovex..
Bit harsh on Candide… One of the most beautifully balanced skiers of all time!
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@BobinCH, absolutely agree...apologies didn’t mean to be seen to criticism CT at all ... I have learned a lot from his ‘constantly moving into the point of balance’ approach...no....the criticism was of those who emulated him but without the base skill or ability to know when to turn things up or down....
On a scale of 1-10 CT obviously is 11.
I am on minus 3.
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@BobinCH, yes, and I think current "new school" skiers would say he's a bit old school - eg he tends to initiate rotations with a pole plant while the newer style is to use a really wide stance. I think Candide's way looks more graceful
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pam w wrote:
The former style is sometimes known as "mincing like an old Frenchman". But I expect old Austrians used to do it too.
I know it’s old school but when you see it from above on a chair it does look so much neater and elegant.
I’m very much a new style but I wish I could ski old school
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
pam w wrote:
The former style is sometimes known as "mincing like an old Frenchman". But I expect old Austrians used to do it too.
Excuse me - I aspired to "mincing".
I agree with the decade you started skiing, having a big impact.
I was influenced by starting in the 70s, so had a narrower stance. Lady F, who started later, was influenced by the strict "Hip Width" mantra.
Some of the difference could be terrain related and technique influenced by Ski Design (as UANN noted above). On Bumps, Powder and easy Pistes maybe narrower; High speed GS style turns, where "Long Leg/Short Leg" is used, maybe wider (but wider vertically, not laterally)
Watching different Slalom styles on the World Cup - one can see different stance widths being used. I can't remember which racer was being referred to, but I think it was Ed Drake who commented that he thought the stance was too wide and being detrimental to the performance. IIRC It was something to do with blocking the hips - but I could easily have got that wrong. One can also see different approaches to how much weight is put on the U/Hill ski.
A wider stance is more stable; a narrower stance is faster edge to edge and thus more reactive.
Finally, the preferences and idiosyncracies of the individual. Phil Smith is a great advocate of not "homogenising" ski technique - which produces a mountain full of pre programmed Robots. Embrace the individuality!
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@Old Fartbag, yep, feet together in bumps for sure
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Quote:
Phil Smith is a great advocate of not "homogenising" ski technique - which produces a mountain full of pre programmed Robots. Embrace the individuality!
Above is the best thing to say. The best skiers can do either or more likely a blend of the 2 styles at any point on the spectrum. This will depend on steepness of slopes, which skis they have for the day, how bumpy, flat, soft, hard, icy, powdery the slopes are. It will also depend on speed, number of people of around, whether the turns are short and many or big and open or anything in between or a mix. It will depend on the skier's mood and what they feel like, or indeed how tired the legs may or may not be. Chances are it is not even a conscious decision - it will be instinctual.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@beeryletcher, yep, being adroit in switching between every technique depending on context is absolutely where to be …
I love ‘monoski’ with fats but goodness you have to be careful - I had a hilarious ‘off’ last Easter with the Grom - approaching a lip, cattrack, locked my rear tips together by error in a narrow stance and so suddenly was a passenger…shot off to the left, over a small cliffette, down onto a track maybe 4 metres below…landed safely but big shout from Grom ‘where the hell are you going?….’
Walk of shame back up to him…
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@beeryletcher, yep, stance should be dynamic.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@greengriff, as a few on here know this is a subject that I've been trying to get to grips with over the past couple of months on the slopes, changing from the old-school pole flicking/mincing and aspiring to try to mimic the God of Carving Ted Ligerty, who some say practically invented the new way or skiing.
And there's loads more out there if you Google Ted Ligety Carving
Only yesterday someone commented on why I'm not pole planting when I posted a video on FB recently, and that's a major difference in the new style vs old on easier gradients, in that there is only an ever so slight use of the pole to initiate the turn, it's actually more to do with balance and setting yourself up for the turn.
Ligety explains more here in this video and the system he advocates, which I have been using and it has helped immensely!
There's a good few instructors on here who I'm sure will offer their take on it all and how best to get to grips with the new style, plus loads of videos out there, but as ever, how many intermediate + skiers on their holiday will want to almost start again as it were and take valuable times out of their break to learn a new technique?
That's actually why Carv is very good, but even then it involves a degree of discipline and concentration that might not go down too well with others in your group, that's why I'm fortunate in that the OH also uses it.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Seriously like I said gentle gradients no real need but as soon as it gets steeper and you're doing short turns then they come back into the repertoire, but hopefully I've lost that irritating pole flicking?
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@Weathercam, Thanks. The link didn't work for me sadly. I've got to go out now but will do some googling later. Your video looks good, and definitely gives me hope! Surely you jest about the crowds though?
As others have said a lot of it is what was deemed the "proper" way to ski in whatever generation the person started learning.
The idea of chasing an optimum ski technique seems pretty pointless. There are too many different techniques observable in elite skiers. That's before you consider biological differences between people (i.e. hip shape may well influence stance width comfort).
Also as pointed out above, the science suggests that the best athletes have more movement variability than intermediates. (This is wierdly even true for very closed activities like piano playing and triple jump). Being flexible to adapt technique for conditions and situations is clearly advantageous to ski ability.
Quote:
but as ever, how many intermediate + skiers on their holiday will want to almost start again as it were and take valuable times out of their break to learn a new technique?
Imo this is a problem with the technique focused approach skiers take. Is changing technique actually going to improve performance? What is the end goal?
I have spoken before about my instructor friend with beautiful technique who can't ski off piste to save her life. On the other hand I'm nowhere close to technically perfect, but can get down most things with decent style - which I expect is the goal for many. Improving my technique would take money and time which could be spent much more enjoyably elsewhere. While it may make me slightly better, it's not going to open up anything new for me I can't already do.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Yes both techniques work ie. Fall line versus longer radius but which is more elegant to watch from the chairlift?
As well as being a sport and a recreation Skiing is also arguably a form of dance An individual Expression through turning. I’m not sure that instructors can teach individual ‘style’ can they ?
Often you recognise your friends at a distance because of their skiing style before you can make out what they are wearing. Some people just look better getting down the slopes than others
After all it is free
After all it is free
Strange, no mention of the back seat style
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boarder2020 wrote:
....What is the end goal?.....
To get more over onto your edges, which will help the ski grip into the snow far better than just merely sliding the skis which is what the vast % or skiers do.
Skis separated by the space of one fist of even two mean just can't get the degree of edging compared to standing at shoulder width.
Yonks ago when I was skiing before switching to boarding for nigh on 20 years I used to do Ali Ross advanced courses, he advocated the original get down low gorilla stance, and I think it was his demo of getting someone to stand on their skis close together and then get someone to pull them over, and it was a piece of cake, then get the same person to stand with the skis wide apart and try to be pulled over and they would naturally get into a very good edging position to fight being pulled over.
The only way you're going to get that 60-degree+ edge is to crank, or in the new vernacular is to topple, relying on the G-Force of the turn to stop you from falling over, and that is the main issue as people have an inherent fear of falling at speed if they don't have to, so they are happy to ski within themselves.
I've been living quite intensely with all this in the last three / four weeks, and I had one run where the topple just felt so good and that was reflected in my various score metrics, and I've been getting close in others but have not exceeded all the necessary parameters.
When I'm carving like that in the video above it does indeed feel so good, and for sure is helped by perfect pistes, and the aim is to then try and take those "skills" and still edge on bald pistes, and that is altogether another paradigm
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@Weathercam, but simply continuing to improve technique seems like a never ending goal. As well, how do you even pick which technique is "optimal" (it seems like this is predominantly dictated on looks more than performance!). What do you do when whichever bible your following updates to the next new thing?
Do the top freeride guys actually score high on carv? Would they be any better overall if they improved their carv score? Would tanner hall changing his technique to something that looked more like what is traditionally coached make him better?
The whole technique thing is like a never ending worm hole with more questions than answers.
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@boarder2020, I think your analysis is quite ironic given your immense appetite for sports science theory and yet when it comes to practice you question the validity?
Plus we're talking about your average SH not athletes who can adapt their flexibility and movement etc
All this is extremely coincidental as I often freely admit I was never an out and out piste skier. In ten seasons here I very rarely used my Alpine boots and an equally old pair of piste skis.
And there really are only two techniques, old school and new.
After my OH used Carv successfully end of last season and I had just one outing I thought I'd give it a go and invested in a pair of detuned GS race skis back in December and then with the bad off-piste / ski-touring conditions I've concentrated on Carv and my skiing has improved immensely.
I really don't think you can critique Carv without having used it, would be like a film critic reviewing a film on hear say
It has so many nuances to it and helps you concentrate on technique, and I've not even dallied with much that's under the hood of it.
I just wish there was one for XC after my outing today, where a guy I know well from cycling here in the summer said, that I'm fast and strong but with more technique (lessons) I'd be good
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
greengriff wrote:
... So, are these actually 2 distinct styles of skiing, with their own schools of thought, or just people naturally adapting to their different body types?
Well each ski school has its own orthodoxy, so you will for example generally see all Austrian trained people skiing with a similar style. Similarly US trained people, who have a very different style, with a wider stance. So most of the difference you will see, at least amongst non-expert skiers, is based on the teaching system they will have trained under. You see something similar in snowboarding.
There are actually a lot of different styles of skiing - as many as there are national ski schools. Most people learn one style only. Exceptions include racers, who typically ride "race style". That's funny when watching a world class mogul skier rip powder, on moguls skis and looking like a word class mogul skier. And yeah, that is a fairly closed stance even for North Americans.
There are other aspects of "style" also, the obvious to powder skiers being "do you bounce or not". "Bouncing" is something about half skiers do, but the other half don't, so it's clearly unnecessary at least on modern gear.
weathercam wrote:
... And there really are only two techniques, old school and new
<laughs> No, that's not correct.
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Quote:
@boarder2020, I think your analysis is quite ironic given your immense appetite for sports science theory and yet when it comes to practice you question the validity?
Well my masters dissertation was on technique analysis in sports science. A particular theme was that there is really no optimal technique. The research into movement variability supports this - we should expect less variability in experts, but we see more! That's before you start to consider different physiology of people.
Ask any sprint coach about athletes with best technique and few will say bolt. It's generally accepted his technique is flawed, and the likes of asafa Powell and Maurice green are better. A lot of very successful pro golfers with unorthodox swings (e.g. furyk). Look at how Ronaldo and Beckham strike free kicks completely differently.
I could go on and on about the flaws of trying to establish "optimum" coaching techniques, but I'm sure I've bored people enough.
Quote:
I really don't think you can critique Carv without having used it, would be like a film critic reviewing a film on hear say
I've used pressure sensors and force plates pretty extensively so I know their strengths and limitations. The big limitation, which is the same for carv, will be they have no idea what is happening to the rest of the body. For example I can look at a force trace and say this sprinters braking force is too high, but I can't tell what is causing that.
Carv can certainly tell you that your weight is too far back or forward. However, it can't tell you why. So somebody with poor ankle flexibility sees there weight is too far back, and "correct" this by hinging forward at the hip. Now according to carv their technique is better, although in reality the problem is not fixed and the new hip angle is likely not comfortable or good for performance.
Basically you can cheat the system. I'm also yet to see any evidence improving carv score leads to any tangible improvement. You'd think it would be quite an easy/obvious study. Give a bunch of intermediates a week training with carv, and some just free skiing with no instruction. See if the carv group improved significantly more. So yes I'm quite skeptical of it. That said I don't think it is completely terrible, it certainly has its uses (a big one being it probably just makes people concentrate/try a bit harder). I just don't think you can ignore the seemingly quite obvious limitations of trying to quantify ski technique only measuring foot pressure.
Edit:
Quote:
And there really are only two techniques, old school and new.
This is definitely not true!
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You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@phil_w, on the piste that's in its most basic form.
You can clearly differentiate between two styles that skiers adopt, those choosing a more upright stance with skis close together (old school) sliding and those that are migrating from the old to the new, invariably these are taking private instruction, and then those that have mastered the new style to a certain degree.
As soon as it gets steep then it comes down to experience and utilising what you have in your repertoire?
Anyway aren't you more of a snowboarder ?
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
This video is from Interski 2015 and analyses the different approaches of some countries:
...Carv can certainly tell you that your weight is too far back or forward. However, it can't tell you why......
I rest my case
After various runs you get feedback not just a score.
You're told what you achieved in that run, be it edge pressure, start of turn balance etc
Then as you're going back up on the lift you then hear advice on how to better that balance / start of turn n much the same way an instructor would tell you.
Ok some of it is a bit crass but no more than an instructor might use from his script he's been using for a number of seasons.
And then there's the video analysis where you're videod and the app critiques your position but like Ib said I haven't delved into all the functionality of it.
Might do the video tomorrow out of interest and report back.
Looking at that video @Old Fartbag, posted was interesting seeing the different styles, though all the short turns looking decidedly old school but think that's the nature of short turns and pole plants.
Interestingly enough the Koreans seemed to be the most aggressive and their long turns were definitely nigh on new school.
Good interesting video.
Though in everything we see on the mountain instruction always seems to be so varied and at times damn right atrocious, such as ESF Club Med instructors with a group of 12 as opposed to the more normal 6, even then they hardly ever look back and see what's happening.
It's a very rare sight to see ESF group instructors actually teaching intermediates, though one on one I've seen great stuff and that's the crux most people just get to a happy state and no longer take lessons to progress.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Old Fartbag, Fascinating video, thank you.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Quote:
most people just get to a happy state and no longer take lessons to progress
But isn't it like that with lots of pastimes? People learn to play tennis, or table tennis, or the piano, or bridge, or to cook dinner. They don't necessarily go on getting instruction and becoming better at those things though some people will get a lot of satisfaction out of becoming more expert.
Looking at that video @Old Fartbag, posted was interesting seeing the different styles, though all the short turns looking decidedly old school but think that's the nature of short turns and pole plants.
Interestingly enough the Koreans seemed to be the most aggressive and their long turns were definitely nigh on new school.
I think Pole Plants are helpful, if not essential in certain situations:
In Moguls, they are a must
Old school Short Swings
Jump Turns down steep, narrow terrain
Freeriding, as explained by Warren Smith here:
That video I posted, even though it's from 8 years ago, is interesting. Looking at the Australian Demo, I think you can see the strong similarities with technique promoted by Aussies that have come to prominence, like Tom Gellie and Paul Lorenz.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
boarder2020 wrote:
@Weathercam, but simply continuing to improve technique seems like a never ending goal.
Yes, it is. Isn't that a good thing?
boarder2020 wrote:
What do you do when whichever bible your following updates to the next new thing?
Nothing has changed fundamentally since I started skiing 30 years ago, or at least since carving skis came in shortly after that. Some people get very geeky about the next big thing, like this Carv thing that weathercam's always talking about, but that's really a different thing altogether and I reserve judgement as to whether it would be of significant benefit to most skiers.
So yes, strive to improve, not least to ensure that you can ski harder, longer and later in life with less effort expended, but there's no need at all to get all techy about gadgets or 'new' ways of trying to analyse your skiing.
Re: styles of skiing, yes, there are still national differences visible most obviously at the ski demo team championships (Interski). Some of the national ski instructor organisations approach things quite differently from others, perhaps most, historically, the Austrians, who are/were very fixated on the 'correct' body position. I don't see so much difference these days between BASI and Swiss teaching styles but there certainly used to be more, and I haven't kept up on the French or Italian ideas.
But it's fair to say that I could recognise the (ski) nationality of a very good skier from half way across the mountain, perhaps 50% of the time.
Our ski school here in Morgins is very keen to ensure that whatever background our instructors have we all learn to do our explanations and demonstrations in the same way. Although said explanations aren't always exactly the same even between different generations of our senior instructors, so make of that what you will.
most people just get to a happy state and no longer take lessons to progress
But isn't it like that with lots of pastimes? People learn to play tennis, or table tennis, or the piano, or bridge, or to cook dinner. They don't necessarily go on getting instruction and becoming better at those things though some people will get a lot of satisfaction out of becoming more expert.
Quite. There's nothing wrong with that imv as long as you're skiing safely and within your ability. If, like me, you only ski one week a year at most, it's difficult to progress very much, especially if you're of a certain age.....
I'm sure I ski towards shoulder width AND often plant poles......
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
pam w wrote:
Quote:
most people just get to a happy state and no longer take lessons to progress
But isn't it like that with lots of pastimes? People learn to play tennis, or table tennis, or the piano, or bridge, or to cook dinner. They don't necessarily go on getting instruction and becoming better at those things though some people will get a lot of satisfaction out of becoming more expert.
Good idea for a feature, was a good topic of conversation tonight.
And I would say that you have taken immense pride/pleasure at your French, and that it's something you excel in, whereas for me, unfortunately it's a lost cause, even though when I was young I was quite adept, so a sort of left/right brain thing going on ?
After all it is free
After all it is free
In the 1970s and 80s the ultimate goal was to ski short turns right down the Fall Line. That’s probably the reason the magazine is called that. Times have moved on and so have modern skis. Wider pistes, nightly winch grooming and universal snow making have made carving feasible on many more runs. There is simply less need to ski narrow lines and nor are moguls left to grow on the marked runs. Mainstream skiing has moved on to faster longer radius turns with much more extreme angulation using skis wider apart and less need for pole planting or side slipping. That may be a reason older skiers tend to use the closer stance. It looks elegant but is perhaps old fashioned. I ski Telemark which looks really old fashioned and is less efficient than Alpine skiing, but it does attract some attention
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I don't know where you get the idea that I excel at French, @Weathercam. But with skiing, it's not just "style" or "fashion", is it? Ted Ligety wanted to get down the course faster than the competition and his way was more efficient.
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Chaletbeauroc wrote:
Nothing has changed fundamentally since I started skiing 30 years ago, or at least since carving skis came in shortly after that. Some people get very geeky about the next big thing, like this Carv thing that weathercam's always talking about, but that's really a different thing altogether and I reserve judgement as to whether it would be of significant benefit to most skiers.
Rockered skis have made a huge difference to skiing off piste. Put an intermediate skier on some DPS Wailers and they will be able to enjoy slopes they could never have skied on more traditional skis
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