- not everyone has a perfect fit in the forefoot, particularly true in rental boots
- forefoot buckles allow some degree of adjustment to forefoot volume, depending on overlap and flexibility of shell
- trickle down of Boa to rental boots has the possibility of making skiing a much more pleasant experience to those starting out, renting boots, who haven't had the chance to have a proper boot fit
It is easy to be dismissive of this, if like most of us you have had a proper fit and have snug boots that mean the front two buckles serve little purpose. But the reality is for most people, that isn't actually the case.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
phil_w wrote:
king key wrote:
... Thirdly, and far more of an issue is if you catch the bulky twisty knob on the side (rails, tree, your own pole! rock etc) it's designed to ping off. Anyone else want to be on their hands and knees searching in the show for where the eff it's gone!
Dude, it's got this massive great cable sticking out of it.
What you can do, then, is put your hand on the boot, find the cable, and follow it to the little twisty knob thing.
Duh.
NoMapNoCompass wrote:
Phil_w - you beat me to it
That's not what the guy you has the boot in his hand is saying......unless you know better of course..
Not being dismissive, I'm sure more adjustment is a good thing, and looking at the thread many people (including me) have said they don't use the bottom 2 buckles as they cause foot pain - so would seem to indicate there is a problem with the existing arrangement that this might help with.
For me (since you're asking! ) the bottom buckles being loose is not really a big deal, so I'd rather see more adjustment a bit higher up as the bit I always have trouble with is getting my ankle/heel snug; my liners have all sorts of assorted bits of foam to make this work. I'm not claiming to be representative of anyone but me - in fact I'm probably a bad example as I'm very non-fussy about my boot buckling - I've skied around in walk mode without noticing for a while, and once even managed to ski happily without really noticing I lost both cuff pivots!
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Thu 16-02-23 22:22; edited 2 times in total
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Just saw it, looks like the Patriot guy needs to edit his video.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Hurtle wrote:
I was told by our eminent, resident bootfitter that it was the other two clips which did the donkey work anyway.
Whilst I think this is true as is that you should have the bottom 2 finger tight, I don't think that necessarily means this closure mechanism can't help.
One of the reasons to have them finger tight is because the nature of the buckles can cause restricted blood flow and consequences thereof. If this system allows a more spread closure, it could be the mean the fit was better in general and perhaps a little more snug without inhibiting that blood flow.
I was interested to hear Colin say in that video that many in the industry/field who were negative/sceptical liked it when the tried.
Personally, I think I am ambivalent and would go with the trusted fitter - in my case that would be S4F anyway.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
@Layne,
Quote:
If this system allows a more spread closure, it could be the mean the fit was better in general and perhaps a little more snug without inhibiting that blood flow.
Plausible
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
king key wrote:
Just saw it, looks like the Patriot guy needs to edit his video.
But he does make a good point about the tension repeatability thing (about 5 minutes in) - this might be something that still needs a bit of evolving with Boa?
Despite saying I really don't care about my bottom buckles, I do always have them on the second notch with the micro-adjust most of the way out (as this is the point where there is enough tension to stop them undoing and snow going in but not enough to cause any pressure on my foot). I don't have to think about this or fiddle around
Stuarth, I agree on the micro-adjustability aspect. I tend to have 'defaults' for each buckle which I can quickly set after a long lift, lunch etc. It remains to be seen how BOA will work in that regard.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Like others my 2 buckles are loose when skiing so £60 extra seems a lot.
I think it's going to be popular because it is going to allow a manafacturer and shops to sell a single shape boot to more people.
The reality is there could well be a boot that could fit you perfectly but due to the sheer number and models on the market the liklihood of a shop having it is low.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Would be ok if it is repeatable/consistent - ie if you release it, you know you have to do it up a certain number of clicks to get to the same tension.
His point on it being longer to retighten rather than doing buckles at the top of the lift up on a powder day is of course completely moot! - If anyone has to stop and do buckles up, then surely no-one is going to be waiting for them either!
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
NoMapNoCompass wrote:
Yes, people who don't have a perfect fit on their boot or specific anatomical requirements.
What a stupid comment...
it wasn't a comment it was a question. The reason I asked,
I had my boots fitted by the 2 boot fitters who both commented on this thread. 1 fitted my alpine boots, 1 my touring boots. During the fitting process both said bottom buckles don't really do anything just click to stop them rattling about never wear them tight. Both must have lied or be incompetent. Where's your shop I'll get my boots from you next time.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Mother hucker wrote:
NoMapNoCompass wrote:
Yes, people who don't have a perfect fit on their boot or specific anatomical requirements.
What a stupid comment...
Where's your shop I'll get my boots from you next time.
Anyway, you clearly didn't read my reply. Sorry also for calling your comment/question stupid, just me being flippant.
I have fitted boots, you do as well. But were the first ever ski boots you had (rental or otherwise) a perfect fit?, mine weren't, I was a teenager and my feet were growing and changing.
Most people who wear ski boots don't have a proper fit done, this is a fact and reality as most ski boot wearers are rentals or have bought off shelf without a proper fit. The renter may get a boot that mostly fits their feet, but they won't have the snugness that comes with a fitted boot. In that case they need to achieve as an acceptable fit as they can with the buckles. Most people fail miserably at this and wear boots that don't fit well and are overtightened. (Next time you are in a lift queue look down at peoples feet and see the buckle positions of the boots that have Intersport, Skiset stickers on them). When BOA trickles down to the rental market it should be a useful tool in making more boots, more adaptable to more feet.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Fri 17-02-23 9:44; edited 1 time in total
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Oh dear … Boa wars on SH …
I buy Boa snowboard boots for the ValaisGrom….ah snug. And quick. zip zip zip clickety click. Zrooooooommmmm onto his edges all over the hill and flumpy flumpf through the powder in the trees at Vercorin.
Spare parts? Bit of a pain but available.
In ski boots? I spend inordinate amounts of time getting the right ski boots for me and him … lots of punching for me due to wrecked feet from climbing….but it’s worth it. And I never think - oh how dreadful my front clips are on these boots, my foot is all over the place…
BUT…
Given the change in lower boot moulds and patterns of thickness of plastic, if when I next replace a pair of boots, Boa enables me to get boots which are wide in the forefoot and tight at the heel, with a high instep, then great.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I think ginger guy in the cap is a bit dim.
To be honest as long as the lower part of the boot fastens somehow, they actual system doesn't really matter does it, the lower fasteners do nothing, except make peoples feet hurt if they try to do the up too tight.
my boot fitter said something like if you cant do and undo those buckles with just your little finger, the they are too tight.
The boa works as well as traditional buckles, but you could remover the buckles / boa and use your daughters hair bobbles to fasten that part of the boot.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
t44tomo wrote:
The boa works as well as traditional buckles, but you could remover the buckles / boa and use your daughters hair bobbles to fasten that part of the boot.
No you couldn't. The closure of any type sets the boot structure to give its flex performance. Its not there to clamp the foot particularly as I see it, merely to facilitate entry, then set the shell of any boot back to it's correct form after the foot's gone in.
This effectively caps the expansion from that point onwards to give shell performance as design/flex specifications demand.
As already discussed, its much of a muchness how it's enacted. Notice that the Boa leverage points are more or less the same as clips for pure geometry? They bill it as technology, but it's marketing really. The clips may hold advantage in that they are a proscribed arc as the cable tries to flatten that arc if it has to negotiate too far a reach and touches the shell at mid point.
Boa seems more suitable (in pure engineering terms) for being suspended in "float" above the foot apeture of board boots than a hard shell ski type.
@t44tomo, you see the other guy in the vid. He's one of the most knowledgeable and sought after boot fitters going. He's commented on this thread. He's read up on them, seen them, tried them out and he seems very positive about it. Though as he pointed out it's not life changing, just another tech development for ski boots.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Layne wrote:
@t44tomo, you see the other guy in the vid. He's one of the most knowledgeable and sought after boot fitters going.He's commented on this thread. He's read up on them, seen them, tried them out
I'm fully aware of who CEM is, although confess I haven't had 45 minutes to review that video in full, and his comments on the Boa are accurate. I was merely pointing out that a completely different person on the other video clip makes few fundamental errors in his assumptions of how they work, like he just took one out of the box and started talking, without thinking first.
Layne wrote:
@t44tomo,. and he seems very positive about it. Though as he pointed out it's not life changing, just another tech development for ski boots.
yes I agree with him, they appear to do a decent job on the least important part of the boot fastening.
once more for those who really are failing to understand this
if a traditional 4 clip version of a boot fits you, then it is likely that the boa version will fit you as well if not better, there isn't a boa boot for every foot, the majority are 100mm (medium) lasts with atomics offer being a 98mm last, so if you have a super wide foot or a super skinny foot is probably isn't for you.....
is it breakable , of course but no more so that a clip and the part is free if it does break, you only pay for the part to be fitted (if you break a clip you normally pay for the clip AND fitting it) the brands using it have been testing for the last 2 full seasons and haven't had any reported issues
will it freeze, reports form a friend in the uSA who has been skiing boot top powder in - 10 to -20 for about 5 weeks in a pair of the salomon states he hasn't had any issues with it freezing on him, ski test week in la clusaz it was -10 to -17 no issues there
is it revolutionary? no not really its a closure system, but the angle at which it pulls the shell around the foot allows a smoother more uniform closure
will there be more coming from other brands ?... yup there are more brands on the list for 24/25 and 25/26
love it or hate it it is here for a good while and people will either like it or not, but so far everyone we have tried it on has liked it
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Fri 17-02-23 13:59; edited 1 time in total
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Quote:
ski test week in la clusaz it was -10 to 117 no issues there
Blimey, Boa or otherwise, you've got to stop wearing your boots in the Sauna @CEM
After all it is free
After all it is free
Richard_Sideways wrote:
Quote:
ski test week in la clusaz it was -10 to 117 no issues there
Blimey, Boa or otherwise, you've got to stop wearing your boots in the Sauna @CEM
doh fat fingers, fixed it
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
@CEM,
Get you point, and it does seem that it might make boots work better - my boots may be way better if I could really do up the lower buckles!
That said, it seems more a good thing for you (as a fitter), not me. I can take the time to get my boots perfect, go back to the fitter every week, etc,... and with that my boots work fine for years. So do I need to pay more for something that seems to have a few potential downsides that I don't currently have; not really.
Would I like to see something that makes it easier to get a snug heel and get my cuff adjusted just right and a better power strap out of the box - definitely, and this might be on the route to that evolution, so I'm not going to knock it.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@stuarth, really not sure how you think boa benefits the boot fitter more than the client
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Pretty sure the new closure system on the Nordica Unlimited boots is the way to go, same pressure alignment closure system, employing a buckle to dial it down. Win/Win
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@CEM,
It would seem to benefit some clients, but not all (this one at least in my scientific survey).
It seems to benefit those with fit issues, therefore easier for boot fitters (and those people) to make boots work for more people.
Listen to your market - a lot of people not quite getting the point. I can sort of see the point, but if boot companies go entirely this way and it ends up costing me more money (and more faff), I'd really need to see an upside (for me - sorry, but being blunt, I don't really care about the rest of your clients)
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
stuarth wrote:
@CEM,
It would seem to benefit some clients, but not all (this one at least in my scientific survey).
It seems to benefit those with fit issues, therefore easier for boot fitters (and those people) to make boots work for more people.
Listen to your market - a lot of people not quite getting the point. I can sort of see the point, but if boot companies go entirely this way and it ends up costing me more money (and more faff), I'd really need to see an upside (for me - sorry, but being blunt, I don't really care about the rest of your clients)
most people that are not quite getting it have seen a picture of a boot any maybe watched a video, as i said in an earlier post (maybe on the other thread) there was a lot of negativity about it within the trade when all we had seen was a picture or a prototype, having skied in a boa boot it certainly wraps the boot better and more evenly than a conventional clip, just like the wire system on the nordica that CH20 mentions above
these things whatever they are are simply closure systems, they don't make my job any easier, my job is to find the best fitting boot shell shape for the customer, they are designed to make YOUR boots fit better
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@CEM,
Was talking to @jnr about them as some of his coaches have boots with Boa. He does crank his bottom buckles as he says they make his boots perform better (he is a much better skier than me, so cares a lot about performance!) and thinks Boa will be great for him.
So guess the perceived value varies.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
CEM wrote:
my job is to find the best fitting boot shell shape for the customer,
I think this is the crux, those people that buy their boots via a proper bootfitters, as opposed to taking a chance on line or buying from a retail rather than a fitter led outlet, will (or should) still be guided by what boot fits their feet best. exactly how the closure works should be secondary to that. I suspect we will see an increasing mix of boa lower fittings, but for a lot of us its a moot point, as it your boots currently fit, you're not in the market for a new pair.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
t44tomo wrote:
CEM wrote:
my job is to find the best fitting boot shell shape for the customer,
I think this is the crux, those people that buy their boots via a proper bootfitters, as opposed to taking a chance on line or buying from a retail rather than a fitter led outlet, will (or should) still be guided by what boot fits their feet best. exactly how the closure works should be secondary to that. I suspect we will see an increasing mix of boa lower fittings, but for a lot of us its a moot point, as it your boots currently fit, you're not in the market for a new pair.
yup, you either need/want new boots or you don't... as time goes on more brands will have more offerings with boa and when time moves further on some might revert to clips or other closures systems, the only time to worry about it is when you need boots, boot manufacturers really do what to make ski boots work better so whatever closure system that is so be it, it is and always has been about the thing that works best for you at the time (that's not to say there isn't a better boot for a foot going to come onto the market in 1 or 2 or even 5 years time)
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
ulmerhutte wrote:
I am sceptical. In a lifetime of skiing, I have seen many different approaches but the only system that has prevailed has been 3 or 4 conventional buckle boots. There must be a reason.
I would say rear entry has prevailed too. Many people hung onto them for decades until new ones came on the market. That would be a sure sign that there is a market for them. I think the last significant innovation in boot fitting was the micro-adjustable buckle which dates to at least 1990. So while the BOA is micro-adjustable so has been every pair of boots I have worn for over 30 years. The only two other significant innovations in ski boots in that time frame are GripWalk/WalktoRide soles and pin inserts in the toes for shift like hybrid bindings.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I think BOA is more about spreading the closure pressure/tension across the entire forefoot overlap than micro-adjustability. But the two do go hand in hand I suppose.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Fri 24-02-23 12:14; edited 1 time in total
I've exclusively used double boa snowboard boots for 12 years (approx 400 days) without issue.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
BoardieK wrote:
I've exclusively used double boa snowboard boots for 12 years (approx 400 days) without issue.
The thing about statistics and probability that people get wrong and why the general population really really suck at judging risk is that your personal experience means absolutely jack.
@jabuzzard, I had micro adjustable buckles in 1985 … and I don’t think they were the first …
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I have BOA cycling shoes. Not always easy to get them set right, a tendance to over tighten.
But I'd be keen to give BOA ski boots a go as I don't like microadjust buckles much and would sooner just crank some button to set tightness. Years ago I had some rear entry Nordica boots that just had a button on the back and a bit of wire to tighten the boot - like the BOA system - they sucked a bit tbh but maybe more to do the boots not being right for me.
After all it is free
After all it is free
The bottom two buckles are the least important! Finding something new to sell springs to mind!
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
@davidof,
Quote:
Nordica boots ... had a button on the back and a bit of wire to tighten the boot
- you ought to try some Dynafit Hoji boots : I'm really impressed with the walk-mode lever on the back which tightens the upper buckle plus powerstrap in ski-mode, then releases them both when you go into walk mode
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
geoffers wrote:
@davidof,
Quote:
Nordica boots ... had a button on the back and a bit of wire to tighten the boot
- you ought to try some Dynafit Hoji boots : I'm really impressed with the walk-mode lever on the back which tightens the upper buckle plus powerstrap in ski-mode, then releases them both when you go into walk mode
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
) the bottom buckles being loose is not really a big deal, so I'd rather see more adjustment a bit higher up as the bit I always have trouble with is getting my ankle/heel snug; my liners have all sorts of assorted bits of foam to make this work. I'm not claiming to be representative of anyone but me - in fact I'm probably a bad example as I'm very non-fussy about my boot buckling - I've skied around in walk mode without noticing for a while, and once even managed to ski happily without really noticing I lost both cuff pivots!
