 Poster: A snowHead
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I suppose a local ski pass and all-the-food-you-can-eat are included in the emoluments? Not clear.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Rob Mackley wrote: |
| @davidof, Min wage how much ? 4368sfr for 42 hour week ? Presume that’s a month ? Just seen it’s 24swiss an hour in 2023 |
Yes, per month for a 42 hour week. I wanted to make the 42 hours clear as many people work less than that.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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There'll be a lot more than 42 hours a week worked in that chalet.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Rob Mackley, Yes, for some reason the Swiss are prone to quote monthly salaries, rather than weekly or annual. There's not an official (national) minimum wage - it was rejected by a referendum a few years ago - but some of the more left-wing cantons have set their own, with Geneva pegging it at chf23 per hour.
But this whole thing is very dodgy under Swiss law. I'm no expert on this, but we very vaguely considered something similar when we bought our current chalet, and it's a minefield. The owner would be considered a de-facto employer, whether any money changes hands or not, and would be responsible for all sorts of things, from various social security and pension contributions to mandatory accident insurance, and the, err, skivvy would also be required to have their own private health insurance, which would be several hundred Francs a month for the cheapest option.
Plus, of course, they'd need a proper residency permit. Even if it were only for the 90 days mentioned earlier you're required to get a permit before you can take any employment. And for non-EU that's quite a process that would need to be initiated by the employer, unless the skivvy already has the right to live and work there, in which case I'm sure they wouldn't be slightly tempted by this offer.
So in essence this offer looks like it's not legal, and in the event of problems both the skivvy and the house owner could be in all sorts of legal trouble. Swiss 'neighbours' are quite prone to calling the police in if they think someone's working 'on the black', so being caught out is much more than just a theoretical possibility.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Chaletbeauroc, interesting (and valid) points! I’m no expert on Swiss (employment) law, so it would be enlightening to hear nixmap’s response. I’m sure it would help allay any concerns potential “volunteers” from snowHeads may have.
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| pam w wrote: |
| There'll be a lot more than 42 hours a week worked in that chalet. |
Well you said 2.5 days times 2.
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| Chaletbeauroc wrote: |
But this whole thing is very dodgy under Swiss law. I'm no expert on this, but we very vaguely considered something similar when we bought our current chalet, and it's a minefield. The owner would be considered a de-facto employer, whether any money changes hands or not, and would be responsible for all sorts of things, from various social security and pension contributions to mandatory accident insurance, and the, err, skivvy would also be required to have their own private health insurance, which would be several hundred Francs a month for the cheapest option. |
if the galley slave is an EEA national they can go to Switzerland as a posted worker and not bother with the Swiss flimflammery. There is a similar agreement with the UK but I don't know if it is still running in 2023.
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| davidof wrote: |
| if the galley slave is an EEA national they can go to Switzerland as a posted worker and not bother with the Swiss flimflammery. There is a similar agreement with the UK but I don't know if it is still running in 2023. |
That may well be the case, but wouldn't that entail nixmap acknowledging to the relevant Swiss authorities that the person coming to his chalet is in fact a worker?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Could be a very cheap holiday though
2-3 weeks accommodation
Food
Ski pass
for 2 weekends of work
Then quit
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@Mike Pow, 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
Well you said 2.5 days times 2
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I said that was absolute minimum, but those are very long days, not 8 hours, and with the addition of all the extra "school holiday" times, and all the preparation, shopping, cleaning etc to do, plus tidying everything up afterwards.
Unlike some people who have commented on this thread (especially men.... ) I actually have extensive experience of shopping, cooking, cleaning and clearing up after families coming to a ski place. I have also done cleaning professionally (well, professionally in that I was paid for it, I'm actually a useless cleaner) for other apartment owners in our development. A big supermarket shop, depending on how far you have to drive, takes a few hours by the time you've stowed it all away. I am renting two gites next season for a family holiday - end of let cleaning fee is 200 euros each. Which is realistic - would be more in Switzerland, I expect.
It could be a good gaff for a couple who are exceptionally efficient at cooking and cleaning and can afford the cash-flow implications of having no income for three or four months. But if I were an exceptionally efficient cook and cleaner, working in Switzerland, I think I'd expect to break even financially, at least.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| pam w wrote: |
| I am renting two gites next season for a family holiday - end of let cleaning fee is 200 euros each. Which is realistic - would be more in Switzerland, I expect. |
I never quite understand cleaning fees. For us, the cleaning is just a part of the rental, so it's already factored into our headline price. I know it's quite common on Airbnb in particular to list such charges separately, the only rationale I can see for doing so is to make the rental look cheaper than it really is. Most of our new bookings are through booking.com anyway, where isn't really set up that way (extra charges can't be added or configured by the listing owner, so different cleaning rates for different size apartments would be very difficult to manage), and I think the Swiss expectation is anyway that all fees, cleaning, bed linen, etc. are included, which is how we do it, consistently on all channels.
The rest of your points I agree with, especially when you factor in laundry. It takes me a good couple of hours to turn over our larger apartments, plus laundry time, and sometimes a bit more if the guests have left the place filthy, which is thankfully very rare.
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| davidof wrote: |
| if the galley slave is an EEA national they can go to Switzerland as a posted worker and not bother with the Swiss flimflammery. There is a similar agreement with the UK but I don't know if it is still running in 2023. |
That's only for people who are employees in their home countries needing to work in CH for a short time, though, isn't it?
| Alastair Pink wrote: |
That may well be the case, but wouldn't that entail nixmap acknowledging to the relevant Swiss authorities that the person coming to his chalet is in fact a worker? |
Yes. Any way you cut it, this would have to be done for the arrangement to be legal, as per previous post.
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You know it makes sense.
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| pam w wrote: |
Unlike some people who have commented on this thread (especially men.... ) |
bit sexist !
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Chaletbeauroc wrote: |
| davidof wrote: |
| if the galley slave is an EEA national they can go to Switzerland as a posted worker and not bother with the Swiss flimflammery. There is a similar agreement with the UK but I don't know if it is still running in 2023. |
That's only for people who are employees in their home countries needing to work in CH for a short time, though, isn't it?
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In theory, you'd have to look into the 2022 details though. It was the favourite way of Tour Ops to send staff they'd just recruited to Europe.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Mike Pow wrote: |
Could be a very cheap holiday though
2-3 weeks accommodation
Food
Ski pass
for 2 weekends of work
Then quit |
Or just change the locks and hold out for a month?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I hope it wasn't "sexist", @davidof. Perhaps a wrong inference - perhaps some of the people who've implied or inferred on this thread that this is an easy number (and that includes the OP) have relevant experience of having shopped, cooked, cleaned and cleared up in similar situations are men. In which case I shall gladly apologise. I've done it loads of times and it's effing hard work.
I entirely agree with your rationale on "cleaning fees" on AirBnB, @Chaletbeauroc. But in French rentals it is very common for renters to clean up themselves (and generally do a very good job of it). So it's genuinely an optional service. As is the provision of bed linen and towels. I'm paying for it in the gites, but many French families bring their own.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
10 000 hectares de pistes balisées
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But that's the area of the pistes, not the area of the entire mountainside including public toilets and roads. |
Indeed; 10,000 ha is 10,000,000 sq m. If a piste is 50 m wide, that leaves you 200,000 m of linear pistes i.e. 200km. Conclusion the average piste is less than 50 m side.
Noting your concerns re how much work is involved, as I'm sure I've said before it's much easier than a tour operator offering - and the accommodation is way better. TOs may pay, but the pay is peanuts - and Brexit and everything else seem to have put paid to this sort of job anyway. I'd far rather have 5 days a week free than 1 day a week off and living in a room with no windows but four other people, plus their 'overnight guests'. But I'd guess you're even less impressed with a typical TO offering!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I'm a huge fan of this perennial thread. Like others I'm starting to wonder if it's just a god-tier level troll, but if it is, I hope nixmap never breaks character to confirm it.
Leaving aside the legalities of the arrangement, it doesn't sound to me like the modern-day-slavery some are making it out to be. How much would it cost to have luxury accommodation to yourself with a ski pass for 4/7 or 5/7ths of a season (working 2-3 days per week, off 4-5 days). I've no idea what the chalet would cost to rent for a week - something like £5k? So maybe £60k for a 12 week season. You get free uninterrupted use of it for say 4/7ths of that, so you are getting the benefit of £35k worth of chalet rent and a ski pass - is that right? Even better, what if it turns out the nixmap clan are good company too - then your 2 days of work wouldn't be entirely awful, you might even enjoy a few meals and occasional board games with them.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| monkey wrote: |
Leaving aside the legalities of the arrangement |
Why would you do that?
There seems to be an attitude that somehow just breaking employment and residency rules isn't really illegal, or that it's OK as long as you don't get caught. I think it's incumbent on the OP, not that he's likely to respond, to answer questions about the employment status and to assure us that he's doing everything by the book. It seems quite obvious to me (although I'd be happy to be corrected) that he's actively trying to avoid the costs and hassle that properly employing someone as a chalet host would involve.
Is it just because I've been living in Switzerland too long that I find this sort of thing utterly unacceptable?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| monkey wrote: |
I'm a huge fan of this perennial thread. Like others I'm starting to wonder if it's just a god-tier level troll, but if it is, I hope nixmap never breaks character to confirm it.
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I think pre-covid it was a genuine thread with a genuine (albeit a bit strange) offer - but I get a weird feeling that it isn't anymore, nixmap used to post to answer questions (or argue against any accusations) but they've only kicked off the opening post and then set everyone free to argue amongst themselves, while they sit back and chuckle to themselves.
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@Chaletbeauroc,
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Is it just because I've been living in Switzerland too long that I find this sort of thing utterly unacceptable?
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I've never lived in Switzerland and also find the (apparent) skating over the legalities unacceptable. But then I am boringly observant of rules and regulations, having really had to be for half my working life as a lawyer. (Thinking about it, our former Attorney General hasn't seemed to be constrained by such qualms...)
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Yes, the average tour operator gaff isn't great, but we all know people who've done it, learnt a lot, had a ball.
My son worked as a chef for wealthy punters for several seasons. He was expected to produce high quality food, and did - but only did food. There was generally another member of staff, a chalet host of some kind, who did cleaning and driving clients around, clearing snow etc. They helped each other out, obviously. He got VERY good accommodation, always his own room, and a healthy salary too (though not as healthy as the agency got paid for providing him).
Some of the clients were very demanding, some were courteous and appreciative (the Duke of Devonshire fell into the latter category, some of the younger Russians into the former). The Parisian banker was charming and enjoyed showing off his English chef to his friends, after Nick had worked 24 hours solid at New Year, when unexpected guests turned up at all hours.
I never claimed that this job was "slave labour" - that would be absurd. But it's unpaid labour, or paid only in accommodation. And anyone who reads that description and thinks they'd be working an average of 2/3 days a week is kidding themselves, for the reasons I've already spelt out. I would prefer to work for a tour operator any time. Most smart kids can have a ball, learn useful skills and life experience. Lots of snowheads have done it. They're not paid much, but if they manage well they can break even financially over the season. Few youngsters would have the cash flow to do a whole season without a penny coming in.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| pam w wrote: |
| I hope it wasn't "sexist", @davidof |
Still I know what you mean. I have a neighbour who dreads holidays in apartments as she has to do all the cooking, shopping, and cleaning while her husband stands around drinking beer with his mates... oh yes they always end up going somewhere where some of his mates also go
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Oh Dear! This is still going on
Look, this is not quite the sweet deal portrayed, there is no way that you're going to get the free time portrayed (at best it'll be about 50%) . . . but that isn't or may not be a deal breaker . . .
But here's what is. This entire offer skirts, evades or obstructs Swiss employment law into the greyest of grey areas and the first casualty of that if you get caught . . . is you! The Swiss will not jail you, just deport you ( probably with a fine . . . you're going to get reimbursed by the OP? )
This is an opportunity to have a lot of fun, but also far more work and effort than portrayed and your interpretation of that. You have to accept the risk that if caught, YOU fall on the first legal grenade . . . and to put it bluntly, the Swiss are a bit anal about following their rules of law (talk to any tourist about speeding fines).
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@sugarmoma666, I think he's having a senior moment...he akso seems to have forgotten he renovated a house a couple of years ago
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@extremerob, where does it say that anything other than accommodation is included? No mention of ski pass at all.
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You know it makes sense.
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@Hells Bells, might have read it in one of the previous years thread somewhere. Otherwise it’s not quite ski for free 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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No mention of all your food provided free, either.
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Poster: A snowHead
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And it's absurd to call it "free" accommodation - the accommodation is provided in lieu of pay.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I reckon rltp’s sock has slipped.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| monkey wrote: |
I'm a huge fan of this perennial thread.
Leaving aside the legalities of the arrangement, it doesn't sound to me like the modern-day-slavery some are making it out to be. How much would it cost to have luxury accommodation to yourself with a ski pass for 4/7 or 5/7ths of a season (working 2-3 days per week, off 4-5 days). I've no idea what the chalet would cost to rent for a week - something like £5k? So maybe £60k for a 12 week season. You get free uninterrupted use of it for say 4/7ths of that, so you are getting the benefit of £35k worth of chalet rent and a ski pass - is that right? Even better, what if it turns out the nixmap clan are good company too - then your 2 days of work wouldn't be entirely awful, you might even enjoy a few meals and occasional board games with them. |
probably more accurate, than most, depends on if you like cooking, then you can practice for master chef.
Last year the couple did a video blog which was hilarious.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| nixmap wrote: |
Last year the couple did a video blog which was hilarious. |
A “blog” that is… not public? (No link)
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Sat 12-11-22 13:13; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Got me twice with this thread now
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| abc wrote: |
| nixmap wrote: |
Last year the couple did a video blog which was hilarious. |
A “blog” that is… not public? (No link) |
of course, I'm not linking it .. lol i am not crazy
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| pam w wrote: |
| And it's absurd to call it "free" accommodation - the accommodation is provided in lieu of pay. |
volunteers don't get pay... they volunteer
why does everything have to be about money. I thought this forum was about people sharing things for free.
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| pam w wrote: |
| Some of the clients |
We dont have clients , we just have a few friends over.
its nothing so mercenary as u make out
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| nixmap wrote: |
| pam w wrote: |
| And it's absurd to call it "free" accommodation - the accommodation is provided in lieu of pay. |
volunteers don't get pay... they volunteer
why does everything have to be about money. I thought this forum was about people sharing things for free. |
I seem to recall Uber and AirBnB were also about people ‘sharing’ their houses/cars 
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| nixmap wrote: |
| abc wrote: |
| nixmap wrote: |
Last year the couple did a video blog which was hilarious. |
A “blog” that is… not public? (No link) |
of course, I'm not linking it .. lol i am not crazy |
There’s no such thing as a “blog” that’s not public.
A video that isn’t shared/link isn’t a blog. It’s just a video.
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FAQ
