the ice caps themselves are not going to cause sea levels to rise
The northern ice cap will not cause sea level rise. The southern one most definitely will, just as the Greenland ice will, but I think @Extremophile explained that already.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
The current "energy crisis" is NOT about a lack of energy.
The point is that the financial and monetary system is at an end. Since IT controls financial flows with the globally active AI system "Alladin", which is used at BlackRock and others, the collapse of the global monetary system.
from about 30min is worthwhile to understand what's going on:
The current "energy crisis" is NOT about a lack of energy.
The point is that the financial and monetary system is at an end. Since IT controls financial flows with the globally active AI system "Alladin", which is used at BlackRock and others, the collapse of the global monetary system.
from about 30min is worthwhile to understand what's going on:
By the time everyone has arrived in a resort isn’t the energy demand already 95% in place? So any modification to the lift usage is just minor tweaks to the resort’s overall energy footprint.
how much electricity does a chairlift or gondola consume? Isn’t the weight of the chairs/cabins effectively balanced (i.e. the down-side balances-out the up-side weight)? So the energy needed is just for the people plus the friction in the cables. How does this compare to the energy needed to heat and operate the various cafés and restaurants open on piste? And doesn’t the energy needed for all the accommodation substantially outweigh that used to operate the lifts?
So if you wanted to cut down effectively, you’d get more out of discouraging people from going in the first place. And the worst weeks in terms of consumption are the school holidays, when the occupancy is 3-4x greater than in non-holiday weeks.
The premise of the Topic is that lift energy is the biggest candidate for conservation, but this may not be the case. It may be that residential energy comprises the biggest portion of the consumption pie. If that was so, then overall, a better way to conserve might be to focus on occupancy and, say, make lift pass purchase in advance mandatory and limit the number of lift passes sold for any week: the first thing you’d do when organising a holiday would then be to purchase/reserve your lift pass, and then when you know you can actually ski, book accommodation and travel. But it’d be a brave lift company that tried this out voluntarily and while it might work OK for DIY tourists, I’m not sure how it’d work for tour operators. And it would have a big impact on the revenues of both lift operators and resorts.
Or perhaps the converse i.e. you run full blast in the school holiday weeks when revenues and occupancy are maximised and shut down completely the rest of the season, when the financial impact is lower and the energy usage is much less efficient (same infrastructure and facilities but fewer people).
It’d be informative to just get some numbers on what proportion of a resort's total energy footprint comes from what sources. I suspect that focusing just on very visible facilities like chairlifts and gondolas may be avoiding an inconvenient truth: that real conservation my only be possible by limiting visitors or shutting services like cafés and restaurants - as opposed to shutting lifts or limiting lift operating hours.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
"How Much Electricity Does A Ski Lift Use?
The total cost of running a ski lift would depend on a number of factors. These include size of the lift, the capacity, the weight that it has to haul and other such factors. However, if we are to go by average any modern day ski lift would require a daily running expense of around $2,200 to $2,500 and a significant portion of it would go towards electricity costs.
While the consumption would vary depending on the factors mentioned above here are some figures that might be interesting to the readers. A fully loaded gondola or chair lift or even double-decker lift would require a power of around 1400 to 1600 amps for a period of 10 seconds. This is for a car with a weight of 450 lbs. When running at full speed it would require anything between 1000 and 1200 amps when it is running at full speed. When the lift stops and starts again you would need additional power to start the motor. Hence, the above would perhaps have given the readers a rough idea about the total electricity that would be required. The power consumption for a ski lift can range from 7.5 KW or 10 HP to around 750 KW or 100 HP depending on various factors mentioned above."
You are going to heat a lot of chalets for 750kW per large lift.
After all it is free
After all it is free
@NoMapNoCompass, how many chalets would you heat for 750kW?
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My combi boiler is 32kW , gas though but I guess it gives an idea.
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
@NoMapNoCompass, per elsewhere, modern 10 seat bubble uses 945kW ...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
MorningGory wrote:
My combi boiler is 32kW , gas though but I guess it gives an idea.
Your combi-boiler doesn't run continuously, it is thermostatically controlled and will turn on an off in response to the demands of your thermostat.
Ski lifts run all day and worse, intermittently start and stop which actually increases the energy demands.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@NoMapNoCompass, I was commenting on how much to heat a chalet
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@NoMapNoCompass,
Yes, the Poma we use is about 600m long, rises 125m and shifts about 600 skiers an hour. The motor is rated at 22kw but for startup I think we need a generator capable of at least 60kws and 75kws (100hp) to be on the comfortable side ie. The line is fully loaded with 15 heavy men, starting from a dead stop, into a gale with sticky snow and all the ancillary building heaters are on
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
For months, the topic of blackout has been on everyone's lips. What happens if the power supply in Europe collapses?
What consequences would this have for the people in Austria's Vorarlberg and in the European network?
From the point of view of the Vorarlberg state energy supplier, it is clear that you are well prepared and before there is even a blackout, countless system protection plans and measures are already in place to prevent such a scenario.
But what are the mechanisms that work in such a case?
How does the European interconnected grid actually work and what are the exact processes at the energy service provider when an emergency occurs?
What to do if the electricity in Austria and several European countries fails (longer!)?
With the topics of energy crisis, supply failure and blackout, the lecture by crisis expert Herbert Saurugg, MSc. is certainly not for the faint of heart.
What am I learning?
▸ Energy crisis, supply failure and potential blackout
▸ What are the consequences of a gas and electricity shortage?
▸ How can I prepare myself (and my family and business) for such a crisis?
▸ What should be considered in the event of a "blackout"?
▸ Precautionary measures for self-sufficiency
▸ Drinking water supply and wastewater disposal
▸ Emergency health care
▸ Prevention of authorities or emergency organisations (emergency plans)
▸ How can I continue my online training despite a prolonged power outage?
However, due to energy limitations caused by the current world situation, the organizers have decided to cancel the 2023 edition. It is an illustration of the Organizing Committee’s sensitivity to current issues. The organizing committee comments, “The current and expected power shortage with the required restrictions at all levels has prompted Crans-Montana to cancel the men’s night slalom on January 11, 2023,”
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
From today's swissinfo.ch:
Quote:
Will Swiss ski resorts have to shut over winter because of the energy crisis? “In the event of a crisis, anything can happen,” warns the finance minister of a mountain canton.
As the energy shortage looms, Christophe Darbellay, head of the Department of Economy and Education for canton Valais, says he is worried about the ski resorts and accuses the government of being slow to issue any guidance. “It’s not really telling us what it intends to do in the event of a shortage,” he lamented. Valais is home to resorts such as Zermatt, Verbier, Saas-Fee and Crans-Montana.
In Darbellay’s opinion, closing the stations is not out of the question. “In the event of a crisis, anything can happen. But we will fight to the bitter end to prevent the government from cutting off oxygen to the Alpine regions,” he said. Bern must not consider ski resorts as “mere leisure objects, like a private spa or Christmas lights”, he continued. “This would be a serious mistake, because ski resorts are the vital economic activity for all mountain regions.”
Darbellay says he is not against a reduction in the electricity consumption of the ski lifts if this can avoid closures. It’s possible to save 5% of consumption, and the resorts are currently working on this, he points out. But “from 10% it hurts and 15% is just not possible”, he said. As for the consequences of the energy crisis on the price of day passes, he has better news: ski resorts have often secured their electricity purchases with long-term contracts on the open market. The impact on the price of a day’s skiing should therefore remain “reasonable”, he predicted.
In short, nothing tangible to announce yet, at least as far as the Head of the Department of Economy and Education for canton Valais is concerned.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Surely the resort's have plenty of dedicated power generated for back up just in case there was a temporary blackout from a network malfunction?. They can't just leave everyone hanging in mid air all across the resort until it comes back.....can they??
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
The Tarentaise resorts should all be fine, they run off the power from the Tignes Dam
The Tarentaise resorts should all be fine, they run off the power from the Tignes Dam
I believe water levels have been lower than normal this year due to reduced snow-melt and a long hot Summer in the Alps. Might be a bit less juice coming from the hydro scheme this winter.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
zaphod424 wrote:
The Tarentaise resorts should all be fine, they run off the power from the Tignes Dam
is that power ring-fenced, or does it feed into a French national grid? France should be fine anyway, they are not reliant on gas for electricity as much as other nations.
Surely the resort's have plenty of dedicated power generated for back up just in case there was a temporary blackout from a network malfunction?. They can't just leave everyone hanging in mid air all across the resort until it comes back.....can they??
When I was on a chair lift which broke down they started up a diesel generator which hoisted us up painfully slowly until we were all off loaded. But I have seen people being lowered in harnesses by pisteurs who climbed up pylons. But there are probably better arrangements....
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@pam w, some years ago I was on the Fallboden chairlift in Wengen when the power supply failed. They started up the emergency diesel motor but it moved the chairlift painfully slowly as you say, so it took about 30 mins (and it was a cold day) to reach the top of the lift. At least when I got there they handed me a voucher for a free drink in the mountain restaurant as partial recompense.
After all it is free
After all it is free
pam w wrote:
Quote:
Surely the resort's have plenty of dedicated power generated for back up just in case there was a temporary blackout from a network malfunction?. They can't just leave everyone hanging in mid air all across the resort until it comes back.....can they??
When I was on a chair lift which broke down they started up a diesel generator which hoisted us up painfully slowly until we were all off loaded. But I have seen people being lowered in harnesses by pisteurs who climbed up pylons. But there are probably better arrangements....
That was my experience, except after several attempts to start the diesel resulted in just black smoke they gave up. We then watched the pisteurs climb the pylons, scale down the cable to us and then lower us to the ground inn a harness. It wasn't too bad for us as we were over the piste and not to far up , but we were one of the first rescued and it was dark by the time we got down.
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So there's basically no backup if a whole area loses grid power, or just individual generators?. What about something like the penkenbahn in Austria?
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Now that would be an epic night stuck in a super high gondola. You'd die wouldn't you.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
So one should better bring a head lamp in the backpack (and not just for the BB), hand warmers and an empty small bottle of Fuze Tea for this winter.
Oh well.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Quote:
What about something like the penkenbahn in Austria?
I imagine the larger cable cars and gondolas like this, or the Vanoise Express etc have much more robust backups, so would be able to keep running to get passengers off (albeit likely at a greatly reduced speed)
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
As far as I am aware all chairlifts have a diesel back up, how reliable they are is another matter. Of course, if a gear box or other mechanical bit fails then it's back to the winches.
The supply from the Malgovert Hydro Power system of which the Tignes Dam is part feeds into the National Grid.
Unfortunately the French are really struggling with their nukes, there are about 15 GW down on last year's levels, due to failures and delayed servicing. River levels added to the problems in the summer. The forecast was for another reactor to come back on stream every week in October, th at has not happened thanks to strikes! France has been a net importer of electricity since May. But the grid folks from UK and France met earlier in the week, there was lots of reassuring noises, let's hope they are right.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
If there are widespread power problems then quite frankly, what happens to people on ski lifts is probably not a very significant issue. In Les Saisies, the pisteurs quite regularly practiced winching people down from a small lift using schoolkids on their regular Wednesday afternoon PE sessions.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
ollski2.0 wrote:
So there's basically no backup if a whole area loses grid power, or just individual generators?. What about something like the penkenbahn in Austria?
for the Penkenbhan specifically they have back up power at the top and the bottom in order to recover the cabins on the line, but yes it would be a very restricted speed.
The procedure if the penken goes down, is to recover the cabins and then direct all patrons to the hoberg and then bus then on the ski buses from there, in the event of a full power failure or a storm event (wind etc) causing both lifts to stop then there is a emergency access road which can be used to get people off the hill. this is a bit of a faff by all accounts. it was last actually done back in the early 2000's before the new lift was built when a freak storm blew in and meant that the gondola's couldn't run. they held out as long as they could but were losing light and had to start evacuating people.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
According to estimates, there are already 33,000 snow cannons in Austria
The ski resorts are gearing up for the new season. Artificial snow is becoming increasingly important, but exact data on the number of snow cannons is not available. A ski tourism researcher estimates their number at 25,000 Fan guns and 8,000 snow lances
Huge energy consumption
In any case, the energy consumption of the snow generators is huge – even if, according to the Chamber of Commerce, energy savings of 20 percent have been achieved through modernization over the last ten years. However, the debate about energy consumption for artificial snow production is growing – especially in view of the energy crisis.
Assuming 25kW per cannon/lance (propeller, pump, compressor...), this results in a total installed capacity of 825MW. Which is roughly equivalent to the output of the entire Kaprun power plant group with its four reservoirs and three barrages or power plants, totaling 833MW.
Or half a Nuclear Reactor !!!!
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Half a nuclear reactor to power 33000 ski guns sounds like pretty good value to me.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
