 Poster: A snowHead
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@Old Fartbag, Perhaps you could add some qualifiers to your statements, maybe something like:
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| People following BASI or PSIA teaching do this ... |
I don't ski like that and I'm guessing under a new name doesn't either.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| rjs wrote: |
@Old Fartbag, Perhaps you could add some qualifiers to your statements, maybe something like:
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| People following BASI or PSIA teaching do this ... |
I don't ski like that and I'm guessing under a new name doesn't either. |
Given the vast majority of the people on here are recreational skiers, have not done race camps - and have gone through BASI, ESF, ESI, PSIA, CSIA, APSI or other (all of which are reasonably similar), I don't think it unreasonable to assume most people know where I am coming from....especially as I often include clips, where it is generally very clear what system is being demonstrated. There is also the fact that I don't know how BASI etc differs from what you teach, so it would become even more tiresome if I qualified every post I make.
There is also the fact, that if someone here books a lesson, they will be taught under the systems which will be along the lines I have been talking about - thus to me, it makes sense to refer to these systems, rather than introducing further confusion about methods they won't be taught.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Old Fartbag, You also make claims of what racers do, post videos of racers that you incorrectly interpret to support your claims, and cite race experience of instructors as proof that there is only one way to ski.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| rjs wrote: |
| @Old Fartbag, You also make claims of what racers do, post videos of racers that you incorrectly interpret to support your claims, and cite race experience of instructors as proof that there is only one way to ski. |
I have never meant to give the impression that there is only one way to ski. I try to explain clearly what I am talking about and often back it up with video clips...and will then try to explain further if I felt I haven't made my position clear enough. This should not be taken as me arrogantly saying "this is right and everything else is wrong".....but "this is my approach and why I hold it".
I gave the experience of the Instructors whose clips I used, not to show that it was the only way to ski, but because you seemed genuinely baffled as to why they teach as they do. I simply wanted to show they had the experience and background to make what they teach, credible ie. In no way was that to suggest that what you teach isn't, or that it the only way to do it.
I can only talk about what I know ie. What is taught to Recreational skiers rather than to Racers. I have often asked you to clarify your position, as I am genuinely interested in what and how you teach...and have never meant to be dismissive of it.
I have suggested there is a general consensus, on certain elements, among the various teaching systems of different countries....and that has shaped my perspective. I am interested in learning about any techniques that I don't understand and have thus asked you to explain. I started the Insight/Analysis thread in order to learn more. If there is a video that sums up your approach, it would be good to see it.
I have been around long enough to understand how things change and develop over time, especially in the light of ever improving equipment. I also understand that racers approach skiing differently, as they have different objectives and goals.
I posted a video of racers in response to you saying that what they do is totally different. I made a tentative assessment of what I see and then asked you to clarify. I made it clear that I was simply trying to understand. It is not my intention to make a definitive judgement and am happy to be corrected - though I do like it explained as to how and why I got it wrong. I will defend my position if I think I am right, but that doesn't mean that I am, or that I can't be shown that I am wrong.
I hope that explains my position more clearly.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| rjs wrote: |
@Old Fartbag, I have asked before whether you feel that watching these videos has helped you improve. If you do think this then carry on doing it.
I'm sure that Deb Armstrong and Darren Turner are demonstrating what PSIA and BASI want people to do, I am not a member of either organization so don't know why they have chosen to teach in this way.
I think the fundamental difference between how we teach racers and the recreational teaching in these videos is whether the pelvis moves independently of the chest & shoulders or not, this also means that what people describe as upper and lower body is different.
To a racer, you are "stacked" if the hips are square to the skis, the body above the waist is just dead weight and you want to avoid it moving around.
If you teach that chest and hips are tied together then you do need to align the shoulders with the skis in order to be "stacked". |
You know that Deb Armstrong is a race coach/olympic gold medalist as well as a PSIA instructor, right?
Of course you might teach your athletes one way, that doesn't necessarily mean it's the only way, or that racers across the spread of events all ski the same.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@jimmer, Yes, I know who Deb Armstrong is. My complaint is that Old Fartbag is putting his own interpretation on the videos that he posts.
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| rjs wrote: |
| @jimmer, Yes, I know who Deb Armstrong is. My complaint is that Old Fartbag is putting his own interpretation on the videos that he posts. |
So how exactly does my interpretation differ from what the people in the Videos say themselves? What they say is my view, which is why I post them. When you said that you "don't know why they have chosen to teach in this way" and "I have no idea why some instructors teach this" - you appear to say that not only do you disagree with me, but you don't agree with them.
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I think that we are homing in on the fact that there are lots of ways to ski.
There are variations in conditions, abilities, gradients, bio-mechanics, perceptions, confidences..... And they all affect how any one individual approaches skiing a particular slope.
I find this endlessly interesting and love that this thread has reached the same conclusion. @Old Fartbag, you have clearly embraced your position as 'seeking enlightenment'. The more you know, the less you understand. This is the eternal truth until you become like Neo in The Matrix. @rjs, has answers but, also, questions. This is how it is, to be a skier. The path is not clear but we MUST continue.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Klamm Franzer wrote: |
I think that we are homing in on the fact that there are lots of ways to ski.
There are variations in conditions, abilities, gradients, bio-mechanics, perceptions, confidences..... And they all affect how any one individual approaches skiing a particular slope.
I find this endlessly interesting and love that this thread has reached the same conclusion. @Old Fartbag, you have clearly embraced your position as 'seeking enlightenment'. |
I couldn't agree more - and I too find the discussion interesting, which is why I waffle so much. I'm just happy that someone gets where I'm coming from.
Over the years, what I have been told as Gospel in one country and in one era, has been totally dismissed in another country and in another era....everything from stance width to pole plants.
I have learned enough to know how much I don't know. I give opinions, I challenge and I ask questions. My goal is to understand and learn. Forums like this and YouTube are great resources - and ones I wished existed when I was grappling with the sort of questions that get asked and answered on here. It would have saved years of figuring it out for myself through trial and error.
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Once you get past 'quite good', trial and error is one of the best ways to learn. You know what works and what doesn't.
Gates and bumps are the key to skiing anything. If you can do both well you can pat yourself on the back and go for lunch.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Klamm Franzer wrote: |
Gates and bumps are the key to skiing anything. If you can do both well you can pat yourself on the back and go for lunch. |
Gates and Bumps, Eh. I'm too stiff to pat myself on the back...and it looks like I may just have to go hungry. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Old Fartbag,
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Over the years, what I have been told as Gospel in one country and in one era, has been totally dismissed in another country and in another era....everything from stance width to pole plants.
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Have you had enough of experts yet
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You know it makes sense.
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| zikomo wrote: |
| And the OP will not improve until there is a lot more humility. And ability to train. |
What does humility have to do with this ??? 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| AndreSilva wrote: |
| zikomo wrote: |
| And the OP will not improve until there is a lot more humility. And ability to train. |
What does humility have to do with this ??? |
A lot, and failure to understand that will impede your progress.
First, humility in terms of performance is being able to properly listen to and accept the feedback from those who have more expertise than you. I cannot stress this enough. The advice to get your weight more forward will be based on analysing what your skis are doing, something you will not be able to fully understand at your level. Process that feedback and concentrate your efforts on completely accepting it rather than looking for reasons not to.
Ability to train is a very common challenge for recreational skiers. I struggled with this myself when I started to prepare for instructor exams. Mentally, being in the mountains on skis is associated with fun, family, friends, eating, drinking and all sorts of other things that are not related to the task at hand. Switching your mentality is hard, not least as you may think you are doing so when you are not. Focus on goals and the tasks front of you and put all other thoughts out of your mind. One definition of "advanced" that I like to use is the ability to receive feedback on technique and be able to very quickly make the suggested adjustment. The more you are able to do this the more advanced you are.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| zikomo wrote: |
| AndreSilva wrote: |
| zikomo wrote: |
| And the OP will not improve until there is a lot more humility. And ability to train. |
What does humility have to do with this ??? |
A lot, and failure to understand that will impede your progress.
First, humility in terms of performance is being able to properly listen to and accept the feedback from those who have more expertise than you. I cannot stress this enough. The advice to get your weight more forward will be based on analysing what your skis are doing, something you will not be able to fully understand at your level. Process that feedback and concentrate your efforts on completely accepting it rather than looking for reasons not to. |
Unless my English is broken(it's very possible), I still don't understand what humility has to do with what I wrote in my first post.
I understand that lack of humility means: "I'm the best, I don't need help, I know more than my instructors", and I just don't see why you think I'm not being humble. I started this thread saying that I am a beginner/intermediate, that I have a lot to learn and that I want to understand why I keep hearing that my problem is being in front of the boot, I never said that they are wrong.
In my mind I'm thinking: "My shin IS touching the front of the boot, so what is the problem ?". Again, never thought that I'm smarter than my instructor, just trying to understand what they are saying. Unfortunately, I'm sitting in from of my PC in my house and not on the slopes with my instructor in front of me so I can ask him, that is why I'm writing posts in this forum, so I can learn, it was never about ignoring advice from more experienced skiers.
For some people, the best way to learn something is to question and try to understand why people are telling that instead of blindly doing something and struggling not knowing why, I'm sure you as an instructor know that better than anyone.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@AndreSilva, I am only trying to help you. I worry a little that you have taken some sort of offence when it is suggested to you that humility and having a training mindset are important. Please re-read my post carefully and take it in the helpful way in which it is written. I have tried to explain clearly what I mean by humility and the mental approach to improving technique. I think this is good advice from a perspective of experience and expertise.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
In my mind I'm thinking: "My shin IS touching the front of the boot, so what is the problem ?"
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I am commenting as someone who has had a lot of very good ski instruction, and is sometimes aware that her weight has gone onto the back of the skis...... and sometimes been unaware, but had that demonstrated by a clear video which shows not only that the weight was too far back, but also too much of it on the wrong (i.e. inside) ski. You are mistaken in thinking that if your shin is touching the front of the boot, the weight must be on the front of the skis.
But that's not the lack of humility, that's just a mistake lots of us have made. You also suggested that nobody past their first few days as a beginner made the mistake of having their weight too far back - and when others tried to correct that (totally wrong) impression you appear just to have dismissed their views. There's your lack of humility.
Putting up pictures or videos of world class athletes really doesn't help because the explanations become too complex and irrelevant to where you are with your skiing (and where I am with mine).
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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My experience has been that all instructors from many ski schools across three different countries have been remarkably consistent in what they’ve told me I need to do to improve (from a reasonably high level for a recreational skier), and it’s the same as I was told when I was learning.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Late to this, but I would say that one of the most important things you can do while learning is develop a feel, an awareness, of what is happening at any time. It's easy to make the mistake of focusing so much on doing some particular technique thing (like pressuring the front of the boot, in the OP's case) that one becomes deaf to the feelings coming back from your body, feelings that can tell you so much.
Specifically, it is very useful to learn to feel exactly where the pressure is on the soles of your feet. If you can learn to move it backwards and forwards at will, from the balls of the feet to the heels and back to the centre, under your arch, you will be better at sensing what you need to do to correct any fore-aft balance issues. As others have mentioned above, practicing lifting the tail of the ski off the snow, and then the shovel, really helps you tune in to where your centre of mass is (if you can lift your ski tail off the snow, then your weight isn't too far back).
As regards pressuring the front of the boot, that's something I think used to be taught but isn't so much now, because most of the time it's not necessary or helpful. Keeping in general centred over your skis is the best bet, although typically you will have the weight a little further forward on your foot at the start of the turn, to get the shovel to bite, and then a little backward towards the heel towards the end of the turn to stop the tail washing out. But this is quite subtle. Once you learn to feel exactly what is happening on the sole of your foot, and thus learn to feel a more generally more centred position, it is amazing how little a movement it takes to get your ski to do something - a subtle tipping on to edge, a bit of pressure on the ball of the big toe.
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FAQ
