I'm a beginner/intermediate on-piste skier, and when I have some kind of coaching or just some more experienced skier with me, they always say that my biggest problem is that my weight is on the back of the skis instead of in front of it.
Every video I watch, every post I read says the same, weight in the front = good, weight in the back = bad.
I understand that when you are in the back of the ski it will make almost impossible to turn it, but I only see this happening when you are a beginner with less than 5 days of ski in your life. We all know the feeling we had when trying to turn and the ski and going completely straight, because our weight is too much in the back... and I agree 100% that this is wrong.
After around 40 days of ski in my life, I understand that I need to throw my weight in front of my boot, my shin needs to be in contact all the time and when I am skiing I feel that! But people still say that I'm in the backseat.
Unfortunately, I don't have many footages that are not first-person to always check my stance, but when I see someone carving at high speeds, most of the time they are not in front of the ski. They are not in the back, they are more in the middle.
This racer for example, carving, high speeds and her weight is more in the middle leaning to the backside:
Racer in the backseat:
It's VERY rare that I see someone really leaning in front of it like this:
I am VERY aware that I'm still a beginner/intermediate and I need to improve so much, but when everybody says that I need to lean forward I think: "I am already!!! How can I lean even more, I don't see how this is physically possible!"
So my question is: if even the racers above are not in front of the skis, why do I keep hearing that this is my problem ?
Also, in your opinion, what would be the best drills to try to fix that ?
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Wed 16-02-22 15:04; edited 1 time in total
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@AndreSilva, When instructors say something, they typically mean it relative to what you are doing not in absolute terms.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Comparing yourself to stills of world class skiers in extremis probably isn't helpful. The "stork drill" which was suggested to you on your other thread would be a very good one - or simply lifting the back of each ski, alternatively, as you are gently skiing along an almost-flat track. If you can't lift the back of the ski, you obviously have a lot of weight on it! You are probably focussing too much on "throwing weight on front of boot" which probably makes you stick your bum out. Bums are heavy things. You are quite wrong that only very beginner skiers have their weight too far back a lot of the time. It's probably the major problem for most of us, and for me, I know it happens too easily once I'm out of my comfort zone. One thing to think about is standing up straight - don't squat. Pelvic tilt.... crude way to think about it is, imagine you have an erection and make it point as high as possible.
(You won't get that tip in many private lessons, and here it's quite free...)
... One thing to think about is standing up straight - don't squat. Pelvic tilt.... crude way to think about it is, imagine you have an erection and make it point as high as possible.
(You won't get that tip in many private lessons, and here it's quite free...)
Best example ever.
But standing straight is wrong... isn't it ? We should always have some bent knees and ankles, right ?
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@AndreSilva, I think the shins pushing on boots mantra can be counter productive for some people. It certainly was for me. What helped me to get out of the back seat was focussing on where I feel my weight on the soles of my feet*. The stork drill is good; also just try skiing down a gentle run and shift your weight forwards and backwards. You should be able to feel weight on the basis of your feet, evenly spread, and on your heels. That may help you to get a feel for where you are centred. When you've done this, try the stork drill and notice where weight is on your standing foot. Get comfortable with this on easy slopes (really easy, blue at most) then try it on progressively steeper ones.
*And the benefit of many lessons - a lot of which involved what I've written above, and variations on the theme.
My view, as a slightly obsessive amateur, who is interested in this sort of stuff, is as follows.
As you improve, you realise that having a "forward stance", is far too simplistic. You need to have a balanced stance, that reacts to the forces generated through the turn and gets the most out of your ski's sidecut and design.
The reason you press forward (and across ie. to change edges) at the start of the turn is threefold. Firstly, so you don't get left behind as your skis accelerate rapidly into the Fall Line ie. you take a shorter route than the skis, so don't get pushed into the back seat. Secondly, to push the skis into reverse camber, which then adds power to your turns, as the skis snap back into shape. Thirdly, to get your tips to bite, as this is what pulls you into the turn.
Given your hips have got ahead of your feet at the start, then as the turn progresses, you should let the feet ride through, so they come back under your hips, leaving your weight under the arch of your feet.
At the end of the turn, if your stance is too far forward, there is not enough weight on the tails of the skis to stop them washing out.
As you ski from the feet up, really focus on the sensations coming through your feet and where on your feet your weight is actually focused.
Racers are looking for speed and some let their weight drop back at the end of the turn to get extra speed...which is fast, but risky. Their goal is not smooth rounded turns, with ultimate control...but taking as direct a line as they can. Extra yards skied, is precious time lost.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Wed 16-02-22 17:04; edited 7 times in total
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Quote:
But standing straight is wrong... isn't it ? We should always have some bent knees and ankles, right ?
A good thing to think about is where you centre of mass (roughly your navel) is in relation to your feet...if your feet are underneath (not infront of, or behind) your COM you are likely to be balanced -- think of a gymnast landing a jump. To do this on skis you need to have some flexion in your abkles, knees and hips. If you bend your knees more than your ankles, you will find that you are in the back seat.
You don't need to here all the tijme, but you do need to be able to move back into balance before the start of the next turn...
This matters for two reasons. The first is that if you are backwards you'll be using your leg muscles to keep yourself up. This is tiring and means you will have to be more tense than is really required. The other is that your skis postively love having pressure at the front of the ski to start the turn....
After all it is free
After all it is free
ski wrote:
Quote:
But standing straight is wrong... isn't it ? We should always have some bent knees and ankles, right ?
A good thing to think about is where you centre of mass (roughly your navel) is in relation to your feet...
like this guy, he's in the back seat isn't he? No because if you drop a plumb line from his navel it will come down by his toes, his COM is in the middle of his boots due to the slope ankle.
it is difficult to tell from the racer shots above but both #1 and #3 there is a lot of ankle flex on the inner leg. #2 is more debateble for the white skier but the black skier has their com centered.
Photo #3 looks like Tessa Worley. The bottom and hand down on the snow is due to the extreme angulation of the ski, much the same as a motorbiker with his sliders. We're talking about salt water injected snow and slalom skiing on the ragged edge of grip so how appropriate that is for general skiing I'm not sure.
This is what happens when they get it wrong, out the back door
Last edited by After all it is free on Wed 16-02-22 16:15; edited 2 times in total
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Since I am not an Instructor and am not familiar with how you ski/know what is appropriate for your level...I am only trying to answer your question, rather than give specific recommendations. IMV. Learning is easier if you have a better understanding of where you are heading and what you are trying to achieve.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Wed 16-02-22 17:05; edited 1 time in total
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Yes we should.
Pros will sometimes be deliberately in the back seat at points in their skiing because a) it helps them to achieve their goals (faster through turns, buttering sends etc) and b) they’re fit enough to adjust their position over their skis at will.
My original answer stands until you achieve a level of expertise to achieve points a) and b) above.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
As others have pointed out. It isn't necessarily that weight should be extremely forward (though it probably should be slightly forward on piste). It is that for the vast majority a huge issue is weight too far back (for whatever reason). Generally you get 'pushed' back as you turn so being slightly too far forward is easier to correct. Especially given with no weight on the front, skis want to take the fastest route - straight down the fall line...
Equally get forward is far too simple an instruction. A major way people do it is to lean upper body forwards at the hips, sticking their bum out to maintain balance - this isn't good skiing given the goal is to get pressure on the front of the skis (via combination of body balanced on balls of feet/shins of boot). There are several potential causes for getting this wrong, which is why the fix (as early as possible, before bad habits are established) is to get a good instructor who can determine actual root causes and fix them.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
You are definitely skiing in the backseat. It is obvious from the video in the UCPA thread as your skis are shooting out from underneath you on steeper terrain. Also you look like you are on your heels in the Warren video you put up. This is going to block you from skiing steeper terrain in control.
There are two reasons for skiing backseated, technique and equipment. Technique is simply a matter of getting good quality instruction and careful practice to reinforce the instruction.
Regarding equipment boots with either too much or too little forward lean for your body may dump you in the backseat. The height differential between the heel and the toe on bindings may have a similar effect. It probably isn't an equipment problem but if you feel as though you cannot make a particular movement, rather than it just being difficult or frightening then that is one of the signs you have an equipment problem.
Last, thinking about throwing weight to the front of the boot is, for me, not the right way to think about it. You want to be in a neutral, balanced stance with your ankles flexed, your knees bent and a slight bend forward at the waist. Your shins should be against the boot cuff but not so you are hanging on the cuff. You should be able to move your weight backwards and forwards in this stance by flexing and relaxing the ankle joints.
What that means in practice is that my centre of mass should be/is roughly over my feet and I can move it forward or back as I want, depending on what I want to do. That's not the same is "getting forward" and having my shins hard in the front of my boots the whole time.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Quote:
Your shins should be against the boot cuff but not so you are hanging on the cuff.
I guess that's why instructors sometimes make you ski with boots completely undone.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@AndreSilva, also beware that looking at racers pics or video can be enormously misleading due cam and slope angles...
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
You are not flexing your ankles. Simple as that. Take the advice, you are definitely in the backseat. Don’t even start thinking about all the centred stance stuff until you can achieve good ankle flexation and stop being pushed onto your heels by the forces generated in the turn.
When you are very advanced, which is a long way from where you are now, you will be able to CHOOSE to change where the pressure is during the turn. That is not something you should even be thinking about now.
And the comparison with racers is not helpful as others have said. In fact it is a little silly to compare yourself to them.
I’m a fairly good skier and an instructor. I don’t and can’t do the things my daughter who races does. And neither do I try do. I would do myself an injury and probably be a danger to others!
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
zikomo wrote:
You are not flexing your ankles. Simple as that. Take the advice, you are definitely in the backseat. Don’t even start thinking about all the centred stance stuff until you can achieve good ankle flexation and stop being pushed onto your heels by the forces generated in the turn.
When you are very advanced, which is a long way from where you are now, you will be able to CHOOSE to change where the pressure is during the turn. That is not something you should even be thinking about now.
And the comparison with racers is not helpful as others have said. In fact it is a little silly to compare yourself to them.
I’m a fairly good skier and an instructor. I don’t and can’t do the things my daughter who races does. And neither do I try do. I would do myself an injury and probably be a danger to others!
This is exactly why I qualified my comments above, as being more of academic interest. What applies to the OP must be appropriate to where he is in his skiing journey. If he is generally skiing in the back seat - which will be exacerbated when steepness and fear are in the equation - it is not surprising that the comments he has received have revolved about getting his stance more forward.
I do remember when learning, getting fixated on "Being forward"....and even though what you did on Straight Skis was a bit different, it did not help me improve. I think it is an instruction to combat the general tendencies of Beginners and Intermediates to hang back.
I don't think he is really comparing himself with Racers per se; but I think his question is about simply trying to understand "Stance". What is he doing? What should he be doing? What are Racers doing and is that like anything he should be doing?
Where an Instructor's experience comes in, is knowing what to aim for in terms of Stance when a Beginner; when an improving Intermediate; when Advanced and even when becoming more of a Expert.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Wed 16-02-22 21:53; edited 2 times in total
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Old Fartbag, I agree! But at the OP level he should focus more on ankle flex than hammering the front of the boot.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
ski wrote:
Quote:
But standing straight is wrong... isn't it ? We should always have some bent knees and ankles, right ?
If you bend your knees more than your ankles, you will find that you are in the back seat.
That’s clearly true but I’m not sure it’s all that relevant
TBH, I’ve never understood the idea that skiing should include significant ankle bend - the ski boot is designed to transmit to the ski the forces created by a small amount of ankle movement (as a result of bending the boot) but inevitably sets a fairly low limit on the amount of ankle movement actually possible.
There’s a bit enforced by the forward lean of the boot and dynamically changing posture & balance throughout the turn and in response to changes in terrain includes a small amount of ankle bend but there can never be much.
@Red Leon, Ankle flex allows the watching instructor to get an idea of what forces the trainee is probably transmitting to the ski.
A friend had a problem with this when doing BASI 2. He was wearing his 160 flex race boots and was not visibly flexing his ankles, he was skiing fine but the trainer couldn't assess his demos and a client wouldn't be able to pick up the movement pattern by watching him.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
zikomo wrote:
@Old Fartbag, I agree! But at the OP level he should focus more on ankle flex than hammering the front of the boot.
Absolutely.
Provided he has doesn't have a problem with the degree he can flex his ankles - and his equipment is appropriate, especially re set up - where my videos might help, is showing how ankle flex can be achieved through retracting his feet, rather than just leaning on his boot cuffs. It certainly helps with keeping the feet under the hips and stops them getting too far forward, which just throws you into the back seat.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Wed 16-02-22 20:12; edited 1 time in total
Being in the backseat isn't great, but also standing up straight and being too forward doesn't allow you to put the skis on edge. You're right to think that racers have their hips behind their feet, because all good skiers ski that way. The level of flexion is even more extreme if you look at mogul skiers.
Think about being centred in an athletic (flexed) stance, generally as you progress towards using the design of the ski more (carving) you will need to be more dynamic with your fore-aft balance, so being more forward at the start of the turn, and feeling the back of the boot at the end.
A caveat is that I haven't seen you ski, so you might just be really backseat!
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
A session with a good instructor preferably with a bit of video. Do what they suggest, don’t over think it.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
rjs wrote:
@AndreSilva, When instructors say something, they typically mean it relative to what you are doing not in absolute terms.
100% this.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
OP check the flex rating of your boots. Make sure it is not too high.
I had a bit of a breakthrough when I had the flex reduced by a boot fitter. Before, it was difficult to allow my body to extend and compress in turns and over bumps without simply dropping my body at the knees which meant going in the back seat. Now I can extend and compress while staying centred as I can flex the ankle forwards.
As someone above also said, I have helped myself too by working on feeling a uniform pressure in the footbed, and feeling and staying balanced.
I think a lot of back seat skiing comes from fear and not facing your body down the slope / fall line. Practice this on a blue slope so you are entirely comfortable with the feeling before progressing to steeper more challenging terrain.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@capability, I agree - though would like to elaborate on "Facing your body down the hill".
A bit like "get a forward stance", it has to be put in context and understood. When I first learned in the 70s, the Austrian and Italians were all about always facing down the hill, no matter the turn type. This put you in a very weak and twisted position in Long Turns....in fact, the opposite of being "Stacked".
Short Turns and Mogul skiing are the two times where you constantly face down hill.
Long Turns have you move forward and across at the initiation stage - and it is at this point, where the fear of the fall line can effect the commitment required. As you go through the turn, the hips and shoulders face towards the outside of the turn, but not down the Fall Line. This is very nicely covered by Deb Armstrong in the first of the four videos above.
I don't say this for your benefit, as I believe you understand this - but for the benefit of the OP.
A sensible comment, taken out of context, can so easily be misconstrued by someone grappling with the basics - and is what I believe rjs meant when he said, "When instructors say something, they typically mean it relative to what you are doing not in absolute terms."
Poster: A snowHead
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@Old Fartbag, sort of, as ever, it depends on the circumstances. I was doing nice big super G sized turns this morning, facing down the hill.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
under a new name wrote:
@Old Fartbag, sort of, as ever, it depends on the circumstances. I was doing nice big super G sized turns this morning, facing down the hill.
....but is this the best way of doing them? What are the circumstances where this is an improvement on being "stacked". If you were being taught SG, would this feature?
All the above are serious questions - and not meant to come across as, "I'm right and you're wrong".
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
All this "where are you facing" stuff can get confusing. I did a week's ski coaching once where we were only video'd from the hips down - we all wore black salopettes but the instructor knew exactly who we all were (I was the only woman, and the obvious A-frame.....). He (was he called Dave Peake? It was a long time ago) was focussed entirely on what the skis were doing. If you were skiing right behind him he could tell from the noise if you were dragging your inside ski round a corner, or whatever. Focus on "shoulders" or "arms" can throw some people into some weird stances, though having said that, one of the most valuable tips I had, when scared on what to me seemed steep off piste, was to have Charlotte shouting "Arm! Arm! to remind us to stop dropping our uphill arm.
There's no substitute to having a good instructor, whatever his or her means of communication, out with you on the mountain, hopefully giving you one bit of vital feedback at a time. Not 3 or 4.
@Old Fartbag, By your description above, racers don't do Long Turns. If they can get away with not having their upper body (above the waist) facing down the fall line then they are not going fast enough.
I don't think this is helping the OP though.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
OldFartbag "facing down the hill" and being "stacked" aren't mutually exclusive as I understand it from the lessons I've had. Do you teach differently?
The goal is always what the skis do. I always watch my students from the skis up, not the body down. But almost always, the answer to the skis not doing what they should is body position.
I say almost deliberately, there are some who defy logic: one of my sons is one of them. He is on the spectrum, can ski anything, and skis are always perfectly weighted. He generates huge amounts of pressure when carving. Manages the rebound completely naturally. Kills icy slopes and is who the rest of them follow in the moguls. He is the most inelegant skier I have ever seen, body does all sorts of “wrong” things and if you just watched that you would misjudge his level and ability.
Ski from the feet up.
And the OP will not improve until there is a lot more humility. And ability to train.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
JudgeMent4l wrote:
OldFartbag "facing down the hill" and being "stacked" aren't mutually exclusive as I understand it from the lessons I've had. Do you teach differently?
I am not a qualified Instructor, just an enthusiastic amateur, who is very interested in understanding this sort of stuff.
My understanding, is all your joints are "stacked" over each other, leaving you in the strongest position possible to resist the forces when skiing at high speed, in longer turns.
If you are facing down the Fall Line, while the skis cross the slope, you will be twisted, in a weaker position and thus not stacked.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Fri 18-02-22 21:57; edited 2 times in total
After all it is free
After all it is free
zikomo wrote:
And the OP will not improve until there is a lot more humility. .
Oh the irony....
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@red 27, I am very humble in many ways. Especially when it come to my skiing. But I don’t suffer fools gladly and have both the intellect and the intelligence to take them on. Both are demonstrable. Happy to compare measures with you any time.
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rjs wrote:
@Old Fartbag, By your description above, racers don't do Long Turns. If they can get away with not having their upper body (above the waist) facing down the fall line then they are not going fast enough.
I don't think this is helping the OP though.
I don't intend to say that.
IMV. It is quite possible to do Long Turns while facing downhill. It is also possible to ski fast, while doing so. My point is that for recreational skiers (and maybe racers?), the strongest position (as demonstrated by the Darren Turner clip), is to allow the body to follow the skis, with the joints stacked over each other - and with the hips/shoulders facing towards the outside of the turn.
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collective.