My point is that for recreational skiers (and maybe racers?), the strongest position (as demonstrated by the Darren Turner clip), is to allow the body to follow the skis, with the joints stacked over each other - and with the hips/shoulders facing towards the outside of the turn.
Not for racers.
I have no idea why some instructors teach this, maybe they think that recreational skiers don't have enough core strength to do anything else, quite small children manage it fine.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Quote:
with the hips/shoulders facing towards the outside of the turn.
or downhill
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Old Fartbag wrote:
the strongest position (as demonstrated by the Darren Turner clip), is to allow the body to follow the skis, with the joints stacked over each other - and with the hips/shoulders facing towards the outside of the turn.
No, that's not generally correct. De minimus, if one's crossing any sort of slope with a gradient, the strongest position - is indeed stacked - but in the classic traverse stance, upper body facing at least partially downhill, upper ski leading, and with appropriate angulation per the gradient.
I don't like being prescriptive but the mechanics allow nothing else.
the strongest position (as demonstrated by the Darren Turner clip), is to allow the body to follow the skis, with the joints stacked over each other - and with the hips/shoulders facing towards the outside of the turn.
No, that's not generally correct. De minimus, if one's crossing any sort of slope with a gradient, the strongest position - is indeed stacked - but in the classic traverse stance, upper body facing at least partially downhill, upper ski leading, and with appropriate angulation per the gradient.
I don't like being prescriptive but the mechanics allow nothing else.
I have gone to great pains to say, on multiple occasions, that the hips and shoulders face towards the outside of the turn (not the same as facing down the Fall Line). The Deb Armstrong clip, even demonstrates traversing across the slope, using the Javelin position to put the hips in the correct position.
When you stand across a hill, the Up Hill Arm/Shoulder/Hip and Ski will naturally be ahead. If you swivel 180 deg on the spot, the U/Hill ski will still be ahead. That is not what I'm talking about.
I am simply saying, that when doing Long Turns, the strongest body position is allowing it to follow the skis and not twisted so it is facing down the Fall Line. This is just true. It's how I was taught and it's exactly how D.Turner demonstrates it in his Expert Tuition section entitled "Body Position Long Turns". He even says that being stacked "allows you to handle the pressures of modern performance skiing".
I think there is some confusion going on between "Facing the Fall Line" (as in Short Turns) and "Facing towards the Outside of the Turn", as you would do in a traverse and as you come round a long curve.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
musher wrote:
Quote:
with the hips/shoulders facing towards the outside of the turn.
@Old Fartbag, and I’m saying that - on any gradient - your shoulders are never going to be perpendicular to your skis.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
rjs wrote:
Old Fartbag wrote:
My point is that for recreational skiers (and maybe racers?), the strongest position (as demonstrated by the Darren Turner clip), is to allow the body to follow the skis, with the joints stacked over each other - and with the hips/shoulders facing towards the outside of the turn.
Not for racers.
I have no idea why some instructors teach this, maybe they think that recreational skiers don't have enough core strength to do anything else, quite small children manage it fine.
When I watch this demonstration of GS turns, what I see is the arm/shoulder tracking round with the turning ski to add power to the turn, while the hips face towards the outside of the turn.
What I don't see is the shoulders facing the fall line as the skis ride through.
I have a feeling it's possible we are talking at cross purposes. I am not trying to be awkward, but trying to understand.
@Old Fartbag, and I’m saying that - on any gradient - your shoulders are never going to be perpendicular to your skis.
Can we agree that Darren Turner - as having the top BASI qualification and being an ex GB Team Racer - knows what he is talking about and demonstrates Long Turns with good technique? My position is exactly this:
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Old Fartbag wrote:
under a new name wrote:
Old Fartbag wrote:
the strongest position (as demonstrated by the Darren Turner clip), is to allow the body to follow the skis, with the joints stacked over each other - and with the hips/shoulders facing towards the outside of the turn.
No, that's not generally correct. De minimus, if one's crossing any sort of slope with a gradient, the strongest position - is indeed stacked - but in the classic traverse stance, upper body facing at least partially downhill, upper ski leading, and with appropriate angulation per the gradient.
I don't like being prescriptive but the mechanics allow nothing else.
I have gone to great pains to say, on multiple occasions, that the hips and shoulders face towards the outside of the turn (not the same as facing down the Fall Line). The Deb Armstrong clip, even demonstrates traversing across the slope, using the Javelin position to put the hips in the correct position.
When you stand across a hill, the Up Hill Arm/Shoulder/Hip and Ski will naturally be ahead. If you swivel 180 deg on the spot, the U/Hill ski will still be ahead. That is not what I'm talking about.
I am simply saying, that when doing Long Turns, the strongest body position is allowing it to follow the skis and not twisted so it is facing down the Fall Line. This is just true. It's how I was taught and it's exactly how D.Turner demonstrates it in his Expert Tuition section entitled "Body Position Long Turns". He even says that being stacked "allows you to handle the pressures of modern performance skiing".
I think there is some confusion going on between "Facing the Fall Line" (as in Short Turns) and "Facing towards the Outside of the Turn", as you would do in a traverse and as you come round a long curve.
I'm afraid you are mistaken, and that's not how D.Turner demonstrates it in the video you link to.
"Stacking" is about position fore and aft on the skis, not to do with torsion in the body. It's about making sure that body weight is acting through the center of the ski.
The mistake that people make on turns is dropping the inside shoulder, which leads to unweighting of the outside ski. To counter that, we bring the inside shoulder and arm forward and down the fall line on initiation of the turn, often with a pole plant. That is to keep our upper body facing down the fall line, not to the outside of the turn, although at the end of the turn, that is naturally the position we end up in.
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WRT ankle flexion. If I'm not flexing my ankles as I compress into a turn, then I'm inevitably in the back seat, with a loss of control. For excellent skiers (pro racers and freestylers), who have the fitness and technique to regain control at any time it's not a problem and can be a benefit (better float and higher speed), but for those of us lesser mortals, once we've lost control, we're unlikely to regain it.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
This is a fascinating discussion but will have completely lost the OP who doesn't think he's in the back seat anyway.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Old Fartbag wrote:
Can we agree that Darren Turner - as having the top BASI qualification and being an ex GB Team Racer - knows what he is talking about and demonstrates Long Turns with good technique?
I would agree that he is demonstrating BASI Long Turns well. He isn't demonstrating what we would teach a racer.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Kramer wrote:
I'm afraid you are mistaken, and that's not how D.Turner demonstrates it in the video you link to.
"Stacking" is about position fore and aft on the skis, not to do with torsion in the body. It's about making sure that body weight is acting through the center of the ski.
The mistake that people make on turns is dropping the inside shoulder, which leads to unweighting of the outside ski. To counter that, we bring the inside shoulder and arm forward and down the fall line on initiation of the turn, often with a pole plant. That is to keep our upper body facing down the fall line, not[/b] to the outside of the turn, although at the end of the turn, that is naturally the position we end up in.
I could be mistaken....but what he says is - and I quote:
"You may have heard the expression stacked before in ski technique - What that simply means is lining up your body. (Using a ski pole he demonstrates) There is a line at my toes, ankles knees and hips, shoulders and hands.....standing here like that, all of my ligaments, muscles and skeleton are all lined up - and that will allow me to handle the huge pressures built up in modern performance skiing".
He encourages that stacked position, by allowing the arm to follow the turning ski and using the other hand on the thigh to prevent the body twisting uphill. This allows the strong alignment he was talking about above.
He doesn't mention fore /aft balance, or weight through the centre of the ski - though being in a stacked position would achieve it. In his other video, he says that twisting the body to face down the fall line, puts you in a weaker position.
He also highlights, that in Short Turns keep the upper body still calm and facing down the hill. In Longer turns, stay stacked ie. Lined up.
This is what he says and what he demonstrates - whether he means something else entirely is another matter.
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much on Sat 19-02-22 14:00; edited 5 times in total
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
pam w wrote:
This is a fascinating discussion but will have completely lost the OP who doesn't think he's in the back seat anyway.
In the absence of the OP, we might as well have a fascinating discussion.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Indeed!
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
rjs wrote:
Old Fartbag wrote:
Can we agree that Darren Turner - as having the top BASI qualification and being an ex GB Team Racer - knows what he is talking about and demonstrates Long Turns with good technique?
I would agree that he is demonstrating BASI Long Turns well. He isn't demonstrating what we would teach a racer.
Fair enough.
I can't comment on what racers are taught. The only areas I am somewhat familiar with is "Flex to transition" to keep snow contact and allow early edge pressure; and Long Leg/Short Leg, to allow extreme edge angles.
I see many GS racers letting the arm follow round with the turning ski to add power and their hips fairly countered towards the outside of the turn.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Old Fartbag, that description of stacking totally fits with appropriate "traverse" position, upper ski forwards, body angulated appropriately, shoulders appropriately down the hill.
At no stage, on a gradient, is is sensible to be perpendicular to your skis (and your skis to be side by side). You'll just fall over.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Old Fartbag wrote:
I see many GS racers letting the arm follow round with the turning ski to add power and their hips fairly countered towards the outside of the turn.
Maybe, but are they trying to do what you see or trying to do something else and not quite achieving it?
Take the video from Triggerboy62, is he trying to keep his upper body down the fall line and nearly doing it, or trying to keep it square to the skis and not doing that?
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
under a new name wrote:
... I think you are confusing ...
Quoted out of context, but this.
original post wrote:
After around 40 days of ski in my life...
Also, in your opinion, what would be the best drills to try to fix that ?
Precisely two:
Ski at least 20 times that number of days.
Practice taking well intentioned advice.
After all it is free
After all it is free
under a new name wrote:
@Old Fartbag, reading back up I think you are confusing shoulders trnding down the hill with shoulders down the fall line.
I disagree.
I think you have been misunderstanding what I'm saying.
I have gone to great lengths to differentiate between "Hips/Shoulders facing towards the outside of the turn" ie. shoulders trending (?) down the hill vs Shoulders facing down the fall line. Have you watched the first of the 4 videos I posted earlier, where Deb Armstrong demonstrates exactly what "hips facing the outside of the turn" looks like?
The only point i have been making all along, is twisting to face down the fall line is a weak position, compared to following the skis round the turn.
Now, when you said "...it depends on the circumstances. I was doing nice big super G sized turns this morning, facing down the hill."....you sounded like you were disagreeing with my original point - at least that's how I understood it. If in fact you were allowing the outside arm to track round with the turning skis, while your hips faced the outside of the turn ie. somewhat downhill, but not twisted as far as the Fall Line, then we are (and always have been) on the same page.
Last edited by After all it is free on Sat 19-02-22 19:37; edited 3 times in total
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
rjs wrote:
Old Fartbag wrote:
I see many GS racers letting the arm follow round with the turning ski to add power and their hips fairly countered towards the outside of the turn.
Maybe, but are they trying to do what you see or trying to do something else and not quite achieving it?
Take the video from Triggerboy62, is he trying to keep his upper body down the fall line and nearly doing it, or trying to keep it square to the skis and not doing that?
I "think" (as the last time I did race training, was 40 years ago and very basic), that he is trying to find the optimum balance between following his skis and having the hips facing to the outside of the turn.
As a Race Coach - what do you see? Is this what you would teach? Is he doing it incorrectly or just differently to what you teach?
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
pam w wrote:
We haven't done inner tip lead for a while....
An exaggerated Tip Lead was something I was taught years ago in Italy/Austria....and something I had to work hard to reduce, when using modern technique and carving skis.
I think the Americans called it "Switch", as you actively switched the ski that had the tip lead - this was long before "Switch" took on its current meaning.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Sat 19-02-22 23:52; edited 1 time in total
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
As usual, I find Deb Armstrong explains it well - which is very much on the same page as Darren Turner:
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@Old Fartbag, Race coaches don't teach "hips facing to the outside of the turn". I'm not watching all the way through your Deb Armstrong video, what timecode does she suggest that you should.
I think that the skier in the Triggerboy62 video is trying to keep his upper body quiet and facing down the fall line, he does this better in the race run at the end than the warmup ones to my eye.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
rjs wrote:
@Old Fartbag, Race coaches don't teach "hips facing to the outside of the turn". I'm not watching all the way through your Deb Armstrong video, what timecode does she suggest that you should.
I think that the skier in the Triggerboy62 video is trying to keep his upper body quiet and facing down the fall line, he does this better in the race run at the end than the warmup ones to my eye.
Go to around 6:29 and then at 8:15...and demonstrates the turn at 9:35 after which she explains what is meant by Outside of the turn.
@Old Fartbag, I have asked before whether you feel that watching these videos has helped you improve. If you do think this then carry on doing it.
I'm sure that Deb Armstrong and Darren Turner are demonstrating what PSIA and BASI want people to do, I am not a member of either organization so don't know why they have chosen to teach in this way.
I think the fundamental difference between how we teach racers and the recreational teaching in these videos is whether the pelvis moves independently of the chest & shoulders or not, this also means that what people describe as upper and lower body is different.
To a racer, you are "stacked" if the hips are square to the skis, the body above the waist is just dead weight and you want to avoid it moving around.
If you teach that chest and hips are tied together then you do need to align the shoulders with the skis in order to be "stacked".
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
rjs wrote:
@Old Fartbag, I have asked before whether you feel that watching these videos has helped you improve. If you do think this then carry on doing it.
I'm sure that Deb Armstrong and Darren Turner are demonstrating what PSIA and BASI want people to do, I am not a member of either organization so don't know why they have chosen to teach in this way.
I think the fundamental difference between how we teach racers and the recreational teaching in these videos is whether the pelvis moves independently of the chest & shoulders or not, this also means that what people describe as upper and lower body is different.
To a racer, you are "stacked" if the hips are square to the skis, the body above the waist is just dead weight and you want to avoid it moving around.
If you teach that chest and hips are tied together then you do need to align the shoulders with the skis in order to be "stacked".
Thank you for the more detailed explanation.
What organisation either of them is from, is somewhat irrelevant. It's what they teach that counts and whether it is effective. Both are at the top of their profession and both are from a racing background (In Deb Armstrong's case, a very successful one).....as is Aaron Cassells (Val D'Isere), who helped me through this sort of stuff and was very much aligned with their thinking.
Depending on the clip and who is giving it - the answer is Yes...they certainly help clarify certain subtle aspects of skiing, give me stuff to think about and work on - and help isolate potential faults.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Fartbag, can you show us how YOU ski please?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Whitegoldsbrother, What happened to your brother. He seems to have stopped posting.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Whitegoldsbrother wrote:
Fartbag, can you show us how YOU ski please?
Can't ski at all, I'm afraid - so have to talk a good game (or failing that - Bluff).
Can't ski at all, I'm afraid - so have to talk a good game (or failing that - Bluff).
Not what you said last night. Where's that crap gone?
Oh, there's plenty of crap where that came from - but you have to ask nicely.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Old Fartbag wrote:
...
The only point i have been making all along, is twisting to face down the fall line is a weak position, compared to following the skis round the turn.
Now, when you said "...it depends on the circumstances. I was doing nice big super G sized turns this morning, facing down the hill."....you sounded like you were disagreeing with my original point - at least that's how I understood it. If in fact you were allowing the outside arm to track round with the turning skis, while your hips faced the outside of the turn ie. somewhat downhill, but not twisted as far as the Fall Line, then we are (and always have been) on the same page.
Now I'm even more confused. I don't "let" my arms do anything, frankly, they are in very strategic positions and motions.
After all it is free
After all it is free
under a new name wrote:
Now I'm even more confused. I don't "let" my arms do anything, frankly, they are in very strategic positions and motions.
Either your body continually faces down the fall line as in Short Turns; or it More follows your direction of travel, as in Long Turns. I can't put it more simply than that (see 2nd video up entitled "Stacking for Large Radius Turns").
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@Old Fartbag, then I think we might agree ...
When appropriate, yes, of course, I'm not body down fall line, but I'm certainly never body perpendicular to skis, whichI think I think you were advocating. Always (across a gradient) a good, strong (I hope) stacked, traverse stance.
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
under a new name wrote:
@Old Fartbag, then I think we might agree ...
I always thought we were, as you are too good a skier not to get this correct. We just see/explain/understand things differently.
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