 Poster: A snowHead
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I'm wondering where is the best place to start with cutting weight in my equipment for touring - without investing in a whole new set up. Unfortunately I bought Lange XT Free boots the season before I started touring, I then bought skis the next year and tried to get the best of uphill and downhill - which really means nowhere near the best of either - and bought Faction Agent 2.0 skis with shift bindings. So my set up weight is (per foot):
- Boots ~1600g
- Skis 1760g
- Bindings 865g
I've actually only done a couple of days touring on this setup, I have a trip in January which will have 4 days touring so I will find out here if the set up is too heavy or not. I'm fit, and don't mid a bit of struggle uphill, so there is the possibility that I can sort of grin and bear it on the uphill. Realistically, I will only get one trip a year in but these will be touring orientated - for example I plan on doing a touring trip to Georgia in 2023. I have been thinking about what changes to make:
1. Get new boots
2. Get Quiver Killer Inserts for my current bindings and also get a new set of lighter bindings with Quiver Killer
3. Both would obviously be ideal but the costs might outweigh the benefits.
4. Get fitter!
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on what my be the best option - optimizing for cost and weight!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The most efficient place to lose weight is generally off the rider, but that depends on the *ahem* level of personal excesses 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
Get Quiver Killer Inserts for my current bindings and also get a new set of lighter bindings with Quiver Killer
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+1 for this - I've got skis QKed for Alpine, Tele & touring, plus can swap bindings onto an older set of "rock" skis if there's poor snow cover/UK/Scotland etc
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| Scarlet wrote: |
| The most efficient place to lose weight is generally off the rider, but that depends on the *ahem* level of personal excesses |
+1 !
Losing rider weight and adding rider fitness make everything else entirely irrelevant. Possibly fun, and maybe "easier", but irrelevant.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Boots, they're technically the only part you should be picking up. Going touring will get you fit.
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I'm 186cm tall and weigh 75 kg, there'll be nothing left of me if I lose weight!
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| conor90 wrote: |
| I'm 186cm tall and weigh 75 kg, there'll be nothing left of me if I lose weight! |
You've got a lot of redundant cm, can't you drop a few? That would get your weight down 
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Are the XT Free's really 1600g per foot? Mine are closer to 2kg per foot in a 28 with an aftermarket insole. Also the Lange is basically an alpine boot with very little ROM and tech fittings and tours like it. I like mine a lot but they suck for any kind of serious vertical. So, I'd go boots.
A less expensive pin binding, like the Marker Alpinist would also cut quite a lot of weight per foot. Skis would be the last thing I swapped out of that setup.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
Are the XT Free's really 1600g per foot? Mine are closer to 2kg per foot in a 28 with an aftermarket insole. Also the Lange is basically an alpine boot with very little ROM and tech fittings and tours like it. I like mine a lot but they suck for any kind of serious vertical. So, I'd go boots.
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No they're not actually, on second inspection what I checked was without liners I think - so something like 1900g
Boots might be the best option as you also get increase ROM, as well as a weight cut.
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In that case, defo boots. Imv, Zero G Pro Tour (assuming it fits) would probably take off something in the order of 500g per foot. You would probably achieve something similar with swapping out the Shifts for an Alpinist or something like that. But, as CH20 says, you don't lift the binding.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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As I see it :for a dedicated touring set up then a 300g pin binding is absolute no-brainer.
Shifts, Kingpins <etc> are great for resort but 500g of dead-weight when touring (when 90% time spent going up).
Use the weight saved on binding to get a set of boots & skis that you are going to enjoy to skiing.
As a general rule of thumb a light set of skis (or boots) will weigh ~1kg each.
Even then we are getting into ski-mo territory - such skis called misery-sticks for good reason
If a ski (or boot) weighs 1.5kg it will likely ski much nicer on the downhill.
Aim to get boots (1-1.5kg) + skis (1-1.5kg) + binding (300g).
Therefore a light-ish touring set up that still skis well in variable snow will total about 3-3.5kg per foot.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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If you like the boots then I'd probably swap the bindings.
One other wrinkle though - what sort of multi day touring are you doing? If you are going to be doing a bit of scrambling to reach summits or will have long walk in/outs then you might prefer a boot with a full rubber rockered sole.
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I don't think I'll ever need a really light set up, I tour to get some good downs. I can't imagine I'll be doing anything like the Haute Route. It'll probably be more day tours for consecutive days, as opposed to hut to hut stuff.
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You know it makes sense.
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| CH2O wrote: |
| Boots, they're technically the only part you should be picking up. Going touring will get you fit. |
technically true , but in practice lots of ski lifting going to be going on IMHO  ,
defo get fit by walking uphill loads ,
sounds like the OP is up for a good time on the downs and has the set up for that , so if your boots fit well and you like the skis on the down stay as you are and just put a bit of work in on the legs
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| conor90 wrote: |
...No they're not actually, on second inspection what I checked was without liners I think - so something like 1900g
Boots might be the best option as you also get increase ROM, as well as a weight cut. |
Modern boots, especially touring oriented boots, are much lighter than older designs.
My own Backlands I think are less than half the weight of my previous boots (I did weigh them at the time to check that).
I'm a downhill only person, but I made that switch precisely because of the reduced weight of new gear....
I schlep my boots around airports in my hand baggage. So never mind the going up malarkey, lighter boots are a really good thing anyway.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Otherwise I totally agree with @Scarlet. Most of people (skimo or bike) are way overweight and then they search for super expensive ways to get rid of few grams of weight of their equipment, while carrying 20kg overweight on their bodies. So yeah losing weight from rider is definitely most efficient way, which brings benefits on particular sports activity and also otherwise.
But in @conor90's case, there's probably not all that much to lose anymore based on what he wrote about his size and weight So personally I would start cutting there where you can cut the most, and contrary to what people think, it's not really equipment. Sure you can cut some 200-300g from boots, and another 200g from bindings and similar from skis, but you degrade downhill skiing so much, that in my mind, it's not worth going up anymore Yeah I go up to ski down, so I rather have slightly heavier skis, boots and bindings and can properly ski down, then be superlight up and suffer down with some chewing gum like skis and boots. Which on the end gives you very few places to save. And that's basically your backpack and especially what you put there. 200g that you would save with new boots, basically means one sandwich. So instead of packing things you won't need, but might be good to have because someone said so, think twice what to pack with you. You can easily save 1 or 2kg (something you will never achieve with lighter skis/boots/bindings) just with packing stuff you really need and leaving unnecessary things at home.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@primoz, a very good point. I always shudder a bit when I see people getting advised to go for the bigger pack size just in case. Better to size down and reduce the stuff you take with you IMO
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@primoz, I'm also happy to have slightly heavier equipment so as I can enjoy the downs more - particularly given I'm not doing any really long tours. I would say thought that 300/400g cut from the boots is a lot different to that same weight being cut from your backpack.
It seems like boots might be my best option given these are what you lift on every step, not cheap though! I can probably get a boot about 400g lighter without sacrificing too much on the downhill, and I'll also get improved ROM with more touring orientated boots. I just wish I had tried touring before buying my current boots 3 years ago. I'll see after two days touring on my current set up how it feels. I'm based in Ireland so ideally want to get boots while in resort rather than trying to do it here.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I reckon take what you've got in January and see how you get on. Personally I'd want a lighter boot, although primarily for the extra flex than weight per-se. They may be fine for what you want to do though.
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@conor90, boots skis and bindings are personal preference. I have pair light Dynafit boots, that I use for tours where it's mostly skinning and simple skiing only. They fly uphill and are comfortable as running shoes, but thing is, they suck for skiing. So unless I have tour that's really skinning only, I never take them. I rather have heavier boots (Atomic Hawx XTD 130), for which I know I can push them hard on way down. Same goes for ski, I rather pick heavier skis that I can properly ski then something more similar to xc skis which skin up super fast and easy, but they ski like shi**t.
Otherwise I agree that 300g on boots is not same as 300g in backpack. But same as with bike, where 100g on wheels is not same as 100g on body, you can be pressed pretty hard to lose 300g on boots, while it's normally not that much of problem to lose 1kg in backpack (or 100g on wheels vs 10kg of body fat on bike). And 1kg in backpack shows way more then 300g on boots.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Worth noting that you can probably take closer to half a kilo off per boot and half a kilo off per binding without a massive drop in skiability. This is because the Lange is heavy and tours badly and the Shift does not perform much better than a 350g binding. My Plum Pikas ski well but are nothing like a Shift in terms of safety.
Now, I love the XT Freetour and Shift combination because I travel a long way to ski and often cannot predict what the conditions will be like when I get there. I can't take two pairs of boots so having something that approximates an alpine boot and binding combination makes a lot of sense. But, it remains a poor choice for serious vertical unless you have very specific requirements. I note Sam Anthamattan uses the XT and cast for ski mountaineering. I don't ski like him.
Were I touring more, I would be looking at a boot in the 1400g range. So roughly 500 g lighter than the XT. I lack the technique and experience to ski in touring slippers.
I think it's taken as read that losing a bunch of weight off the body makes more sense than throwing money at the problem. As does packing light.
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Also worth looking at some of these Petzl Irvis hybrid, medium weight crampons.
These have steel front and Alu heel parts joined by Dyneema® cord (super lightweight all Alu. crampons won't last long on anything other than hard snow)
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@geoffers, good shout - I bought a pair of those and they were so good I bought 3 more for the whole family!
You can get them with fittings for everything from pure strap-on, through hybrid (flexi-nose piece, tail clip), to pure step-in.
My guide did point out that they aren't so great for mixed routes, as the dyneema gets abraded. However, the good thing is that's an easy and cheap repair if it happens.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@conor90, how much touring and with who? If your friends, similar speed, then no issue. If, like me, you rock up and everyone else is on lightweight kit (cycle helmets, tiny backpacks, carbon poles etc) and is super fit…. Then you need to drop weight everywhere. Unless this is your only touring trip, in which case, get your friends to carry water/lunch…. And make them wait!
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@hamilton, It's more based on what I plan, or would like to do in the future. I'd like to take trips to places like Georgia, Kosovo, Siberia or the hut trips in Canada. My friend, who's a split boarder, goes on these trips with a regular group so I'd joining them. So they don't have crazy lightweight gear or anything, it's definitely more downhill focused but they still can cover some decent vertical in a day >1000m
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You know it makes sense.
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@conor90, how do you find the Agents? I have just bought a pair 2.0 to which I will add Fitschi Tecton bindings. I already have a set of Faction Dictator 2.0 with Shift bindings which are quite heavy but awesome going down hill especially on variable snow as they just bash through anything but can be hard work especially when tired. My thoughts on getting the Agent/Fitschi is for this to be my goto touring set around PDS as they are lighter as saving c. 450 grams per leg and a softer ski without metal. I could probably save another 300-500 grams if I changed my midweight(?) Technica Cohise boots but I find them comfortable and good performance on downhill and fit in all my bindings.
Are you looking at cutting weight just for the 4 day trip? I would personally look at fitness if you are concerned. You could swap out the Shifts but then would you be happy to have pin bindings at other times? You could get some Tectons but expensive for just 255grms savings - maybe sell the shifts to recoup some costs? Another consideration is the fitness of the group you will be going with - you may find there will be slower climbers and you’ll end up waiting around.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Ozboy, I like the Agents. They are very good going downhill, can get a little shaky at really high speeds and can be a bit of work but all in all I like them. I think the big thing for me going uphill is the boots as opposed to the skis and bindings.
No, not for this trip. I'm least concerned about this trip as it's just me and four good friends with a private guide. It's for future trips where I will be joining groups that I don't know. Fitness wise, I'm pretty fit - I can always get fitter of course but I would be quite a bit fitter than the average punter I'd like to think. That's not necessarily touring fit though, as living in Ireland makes that difficult. I'd like to keep the shift bindings, as I like them for the downhill - so I think new boots is the first thing to try.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@conor90, that is more of a day tour setup than for multi (long) days but if the boots fit and you like them I’d stick with them.
If you want to go lighter the easiest win is the Shifts to something like an ATK freeride binding saving 500g.
You can also lose a couple of hundred grams on skis and boots but any more will impact downhill performance and is not necessary if you are fit. Apart from weight more touring oriented boots would gain a bit more ROM (comfort) for the uphill.
Sam Anthamatten, one of the top mountain guide / free skiers in the world is skiing on a setup similar to yours!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@BobinCH, Do you lose much on the downhill with those bindings? I've read about them not being as safe etc., but really have no knowledge outside of that. I have used light pin bindings when renting before, didn't notice that much of a difference on the downhill but I didn't have any big falls and wasn't going down anything that steep.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I have a dual QK shift / Alpinist setup and its a right pain in the back bottom swopping over as a result of a fifth hidden plate screw that holds the shift track. So after sorting boots out I’d start again with a free tour type ski, an ATK (c-raider) and aim for technica zero g or similiar . Something like a Black Diamond Helio 105 or 95 ( in carbon or not) and keep your current setup for hard snow / short resort tours .
BobinCH Is one of posters here who seems to own an ever larger quiver of skis, bindings and boots than me so I am mildly surprised he isn’t recommending a new funky ski ! Oh and BobinCH if you are reading this and want to “shift” any of your surplus DPS can I be first in line ?
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Thought I'd update here after my touring and maybe get some more thoughts.
Did three days touring around Espace Killy. Only 500m ascent first 2 days, which was fine. Legs didn't feel tired. The third day we did 900m ascent, from 2500m to 3400m. The last 250m were very tough. The guide said I'd probably feel the altitude. We also did the 900m in about 2.5 hours with a 15 minute break. Is that a reasonable pace? Not talking skimo or anything.
I tried to buy boots in Tignes and couldn't get any. One place had only 1 light touring boot, but not in my size. Another place I tried the Technica Zero G Tour Scout, but I have high arches and boot was too tight on the top of my foot. The fitter said I won't find a touring boot to fit my foot type! Anyone have any experience with this?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| conor90 wrote: |
| We also did the 900m in about 2.5 hours with a 15 minute break. Is that a reasonable pace? Not talking skimo or anything. |
seems reasonable. though altitude will make difference.
600m an hour is moderate pace (on non ski-mo gear)
fwiw : nasmiths rule is 10mins for 100mins of ascent.
plus 15mins per horizontal km. but that is on foot!
| conor90 wrote: |
| Another place I tried the Technica Zero G Tour Scout, but I have high arches and boot was too tight on the top of my foot. The fitter said I won't find a touring boot to fit my foot type! Anyone have any experience with this? |
yeah - many lighter boots tend to have narrower fit.
.... or at least dont suit wider feet / higher arches.
so get something to work might require lots of work (likely multiple trips to the boot fitter).
not ideal if you are buying a boot in alps...
for that exact reason I am still using a heavier boot (1.5kg) than I might otherwise tour in.
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| conor90 wrote: |
| I'm 186cm tall and weigh 75 kg, there'll be nothing left of me if I lose weight! |
You're going the worng way - you need to put weight on - at least around 5 kg, maybe 7kg, and it needs to be lean muscle, you'll then find it easier to tour, and hike. 
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| Quote: |
you need to put weight on - at least around 5 kg, maybe 7kg, and it needs to be lean muscle, you'll then find it easier to tour, and hike
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I wouldn't pay much attention to that. Those numbers give a BMI of 21.7, which is fine. Skinny people can be muscly and strong too - think of those fell runners. 82 kg would be fine too, but not if it means force feeding yourself above your natural weight.
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How much up are you doing to how much down. Do you want to enjoy the down or is it just about the up ? dependent on the terrain you're skiing and your ability ...too much weight saving can be detrimental to your purpose, ... But if its about the up and you have a light set up, I would save money and start with packing lighter first including a lighter rucksack.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Haggis_Trap, i always thought 300m an hour was about par for Naismith. Feel fat and lazy now 
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| Arno wrote: |
| @Haggis_Trap, i always thought 300m an hour was about par for Naismith. Feel fat and lazy now |
it is "5km horizontal / hour" plus additional "600m / hr" of vertical.
a good rule - even though its for travel on foot.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naismith%27s_rule
to be fair : 600m vert would be pretty fast / sweaty / unsustainable for whole day.
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FAQ
