 Poster: A snowHead
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| Arno wrote: |
| I think you can overstate the battery issue. If you head out for the day with a reasonably full battery and put the phone in airplane mode, you’re unlikely to have too much of a problem. You can always carry a battery pack just in case. |
Fully agree : though primary reason to keep phone off is EMI interference with beacon (primarily in search mode admittedly).
If you take phone out pocket regularly for photos / navigation / WhatsApp (etc) it will eventually get dropped / lost / broken. Likely at least opportune moment. Though I would add that touchscreens don't work well with winter gloves on. Fine for a temporary location fix in a blizzard but not much else. |
Can’t imagine paper maps are a bundle of fun in winter gloves?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| BobinCH wrote: |
Can’t imagine paper maps are a bundle of fun in winter gloves? |
Never folded a map at right section into a map case? That is exactly what breast pocket of jacket designed for. No need to take gloves off to scroll/ turn screen on
Though I don't see anyone here arguing that we shouldn't use technology. Rather the argument is that it should be used appropriately alongside map + compass.
Speak to any mountain rescue team in Scotland. A significant % of calls out are people who were using phones to navigate and (for whatever reason) lost phone / connection / battery. Suddenly they are unable to navigate and unable to call for help. End result is they invariy get benighted. I bet it's the exact same in Alps?
Stop using smartphones to navigate mountains, warn rescuers
‘That’s the third rescue we’ve had in a row on Ben Macdui where no-one in the group has had a map or compass, and given the publicity that it gets we just can’t understand why folk think they can venture up there using a mobile phone.
https://metro.co.uk/2018/10/24/stop-using-smartphone-apps-to-navigate-mountains-warn-rescuers-8071489/
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Haggis_Trap, interesting article. But if they can’t accurately describe where they are, how is a map going to help?
“Police control had some contact with them intermittently and they were trying to give descriptions of where they were, but none of it made any sense to us or the Braemar team, who also had a group out looking for them.’”
Perhaps I need to invest in a map case. My limited efforts at trying to open/fold paper maps on a windy mountain were not altogether successful. Fatmap is a revelation in comparison!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
Speak to any mountain rescue team in Scotland. A significant % of calls out are people who were using phones to navigate and (for whatever reason) lost phone / connection / battery. Suddenly they are unable to navigate and unable to call for help. End result is they invariy get benighted. I bet it's the exact same in Alps?
Stop using smartphones to navigate mountains, warn rescuers
‘That’s the third rescue we’ve had in a row on Ben Macdui where no-one in the group has had a map or compass, and given the publicity that it gets we just can’t understand why folk think they can venture up there using a mobile phone.
https://metro.co.uk/2018/10/24/stop-using-smartphone-apps-to-navigate-mountains-warn-rescuers-8071489/ |
Sadly I expect its the only thing they know (never used a map to this degree), compounded the hubris that comes from smart phones being so reliable in normal conditions (good coverage and not freezing temps).
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@Haggis_Trap, so what do you do in Italy then, as per my question on the previous page ?
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| sibhusky wrote: |
| joffy69 wrote: |
| My only experience of using fatmap on a mobile is that it chomps through the battery. |
I would think this would only be for recording tracks? If it's on your phone but not running until you need it then why would it be using battery life anymore than usual? I've always got Location on, even in the house, but I'm not running tracking apps. You download the maps in advance and just start the app occasionally to see where you are. |
I’ve used FatMap in tracking mode (not route-finding) on good long touring days and had adequate battery at the end as well as a nice memento (the recorded track) of the day.
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| Grinning wrote: |
I’ve used FatMap in tracking mode (not route-finding) on good long touring days and had adequate battery at the end as well as a nice memento (the recorded track) of the day. |
So you ski toured all day with your phone on? If we are talking avalanche beacon best-practice it's not a great habit to get into... Plus GPS inevitably one of the biggest power consumers on a phone when left on all day.
https://www.snowsafe.co.uk/smartphones-interfere-avalanche-transceivers/
| Weathercam wrote: |
| @Haggis_Trap, so what do you do in Italy then, as per my question on the previous page ? |
Eat pizza and carry a map / compass to back up your "phat-map" ?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| sibhusky wrote: |
| joffy69 wrote: |
| My only experience of using fatmap on a mobile is that it chomps through the battery. |
I would think this would only be for recording tracks? If it's on your phone but not running until you need it then why would it be using battery life anymore than usual? I've always got Location on, even in the house, but I'm not running tracking apps. You download the maps in advance and just start the app occasionally to see where you are. |
Good point. Though I no longer use it, as others have said, because of beacon interference.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| Grinning wrote: |
I’ve used FatMap in tracking mode (not route-finding) on good long touring days and had adequate battery at the end as well as a nice memento (the recorded track) of the day. |
So you ski toured all day with your phone on? If we are talking avalanche beacon best-practice it's not a great habit to get into... Plus GPS inevitably one of the biggest power consumers on a phone when left on all day.
https://www.snowsafe.co.uk/smartphones-interfere-avalanche-transceivers/ |
My touring days started before the advent of mobile phones and GoPros. It looks like there are some lessons to be learnt when combining a passion with a convenience/luxury and a review of our practices may be needed.
Yes, my phone was on and in a trouser thigh pocket in a quilted bag. Transceiver on and worn with normal chest strap. My wife wants to know why I am measuring my body with a wooden rule? It’s 60cm los (position when transceiver is in send) . When searching the transceiver would be closer to the hot phone but we know to switch off electrical when searching. When practising I have not turned my phone off.
The video is interesting and demonstrates a hot phone and hot GoPro critically switching the transceiver from digital to analog and losing range data when searching. Video then demonstrates a hot GoPro disrupting the sending transceiver to a lesser extent. The hot phone was not demonstrated at the sending transceiver. In all cases the hot device was immediately adjacent the transceiver and the transceiver always quickly recovered as the hot device was moved only a small distance away from the transceiver. I’d be interested to see the effect on searching with phone further away from search transceiver but search mantra is switch off devices.
It is abundantly clear that hot devices can greatly affect the search function hence the mantra to switch electronics off when searching. There is less of a risk having a hot device on the victim, it seems.
In my pack I always carry a folded foil blanket - one of the best electromagnetic shields there is! That may be better stored rolled up rather than flat. I used to carry a dinner-plate-sized metal plate on my back but I now have a plastic one: avi shovel (probably Al and less likely to affect EM radiation).
There is no guarantee of the victim’s body configuration when they come to rest and their phone might well be folded to lie immediately adjacent their transceiver. The phone/transceiver separation distance will vary considerably.
I’ve got a quiet day today as my back’s in spasm but if I had our transceivers to hand I’d be out there “researching” the effects of em/hot device proximity to transceivers in send/search modes. Sadly, the transceivers aren’t to hand so I’m going to have a look at some relevant research papers which must be out there (or I might have another cup of tea).
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| Weathercam wrote: |
| @Haggis_Trap, so what do you do in Italy then, as per my question on the previous page ? |
Eat pizza and carry a map / compass to back up your "phat-map" ? |
But like I mentioned, Italian maps are notoriously inaccurate compared to France.
Have to say we've been discussing the stuff below with Cain at Snowsafe as he's just down the road from us and......
Once back out in a couple of weeks we'll be doing a big test hopefully in deep snow, with transceivers, smartwatches, phones and not least burying phones and ring them to see if one can hear them !
Especially as I just bought my OH (me really as I'll be the one in all likelihood that she'll be looking for) the new Ortavox Diract.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Weathercam wrote: |
But like I mentioned, Italian maps are notoriously inaccurate compared to France.
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That is entierly different topic. Though I think you overstate the supposed (in)accuracy of IGM Vs Swisstopo or IGN (which cover most of the Italian border / alpine regions anyway)
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| Grinning wrote: |
It is abundantly clear that hot devices can greatly affect the search function hence the mantra to switch electronics off when searching. There is less of a risk having a hot device on the victim, it seems. |
Correct : that is a good summary and matches my real world experience. Though it varies massively between different beacons / smart phones.
The EMI regulation and testing of consumer electronics in 457khZ band (used by avy beacons) not well defined.
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You know it makes sense.
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I've bought a Faraday bag for my phone. Idea is that phone goes on flight mode and gets put in the bag and stays warm in a pocket. It can then be used for photos etc without needing to power on every time. You could use this as a solution for navigation, even though I personally don't. I'm more in the "look at it on screen the night before and then ski it with the map" camp. Although it's been a while since I've done any actual skiing.
See: https://www.alpine-guides.com/faraday-pouches-a-solution-for-electronic-shielding-whilst-off-piste-skiing/
BTW, I skied for an entire season using a guide book produced by Haggis Trap, for which I remain extremely grateful. I'd trust his judgement on navigation.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
Any guide worth his salt is using a GPS device as his main navigation tool.
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I'd be very disappointed if I paid for a guide and they were using GPS as a navigation tool! One of the key benefits of a guide is local knowledge. They should know the area and ideally where conditions will be best.
Let's be honest how many times do you even need a map/GPS device anyway? Half decent research on the route before you go (which yes, fatmap is rather excellent for) and you should be ok doing 90% of routes without needing any kind of assistance.
It seems like people are arguing two things. The fat map supporters are arguing fatmap is better than maps (yes it does have some advantages), the map supporters are saying by all means use fatmap its a good tool, but you cant beat a papaer map as a backup which seems more than sensible.
That video in the link above was pretty terrifying. I dont ski with a phone turned on but am not thinking I might scrap the gps watch now.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
| Quote: |
Any guide worth his salt is using a GPS device as his main navigation tool.
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I'd be very disappointed if I paid for a guide and they were using GPS as a navigation tool! One of the key benefits of a guide is local knowledge. They should know the area and ideally where conditions will be best. |
I think most guides would tell you they’d be seen as negligent if they didn’t have GPS on all but the simplest routes. As to actually using it, I’d raise an eyebrow if a guide was constantly referring to GPS in good visibility on a classic route on his/her home mountain. Our usual guy likes to get off the beaten track a bit with us so he makes extensive use of Iphigenie. In bad vis and complex terrain, I’d be pretty surprised if a guide didn’t use GPS
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I don't think anyone is arguing that Fatmap and other apps like IGN are not great tools. but all tools have down sides and it's making sure people are aware of them.
for example I use the IGN mapping app for about 90% of my navigation for ski touring, because it is easy, quick, you can zoom in and out and go to 3d and it's better in some terrain than a map.
But I am aware of issues it could have like accuracy, battery life or failure. So making sure you check the map matches the ground or in your group you have a map & compass and you have away of making contact in an emergency is a good idea
The other big issues is the skill or experience to use a tool. If you know how to navigate, interpret - map to ground & ground to map, understand contours and navigation techniques like aiming off and hand railing etc, then these kind of apps are a great tool.
The issue most people seam to have is when someone has no experience or skills navigating, set off into the hills/mountains with the plan to just blindly follow an app and then they have an issue.
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@boarder2020, @Arno, yes obviously a guide, like the rest of us, uses their local knowledge and eyes in most situations. I’m referring to a situation where additional support is required. I’m reading several people say you should go to map and compass first. Phone should stay in bag switched off and saved for emergency calls. In the few occasions I’ve been in this situation with guides they’ve gone straight to a GPS device or phone. That’s certainly what I would do. I don’t recall a guide I’ve been skiing with ever pull out a map and compass to navigate in the last 10 years although I’m sure they have them as backup.
And returning the OP’s question I think he’s right to use Fatmap with a decent phone and download in advance the maps he needs (with subscription). I’ve not seen anything better. InReach mini an additional level of security in remote terrain
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| BobinCH wrote: |
| Right but times have changed. Any guide worth his salt is using a GPS device as his main navigation tool |
I bet you *all* guides carry paper map & compass? Some of them will use FatMap : but primarily as a planning tool the night before.
Of course guides will carry GPS unit. However they will generally only use it to get a location fix if the brown stuff starts hitting fan (I would be asking questions if they were following it all day, rather than observing the snow / weather).
The key to navigation is general awareness of where you are at each stage of journey.
| Quote: |
| And why anyone in the mountains wouldn’t use Fatmap is beyond me. |
Already discussed...
- phone battery life reduced by GPS
- EMI interference with avalanche beacons
- taking phone out of pack increases risk of it being lost/broken
- touch screens don't work with winter gloves
- GPS can (and has) been disabled by US military at any moment
{etc}
| Quote: |
| It’s night and day better than a paper map. Zoom in/out, rotate, view from below/above. Positions you on the map, shows the direction you’re facing. None of this is possible with a paper map. Show me a 3D view like this of Mont Fort on a paper map? |
Yes, FatMap has some nice features. For me it's a planning rather than navigation tool. No one has said don't use it.
What they have said is that using smart phone as replacement for map / compass is a bit stupid.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Tue 2-11-21 14:13; edited 1 time in total
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| BobinCH wrote: |
| In the few occasions I’ve been in this situation with guides they’ve gone straight to a GPS device or phone. |
Correct, I have also done exactly the same.
Tech is there to be used appropriately.
However if you are semi component at navigation a single location fix is all the reassurance you should need. A guide certainly won't be following fat map like a chimp all day (... as their only navigation aid) while it slowly drains their phone battery with GPS enabled for 12hrs.
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@BobinCH, I’d agree with that. I’m usually skiing with guides these days in the mountains but if I’m out hill walking etc, the map is in my bag just in case but the first thing I check if needed is the mapping app on my phone. It’s just quicker and easier
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A fair % of off-piste skiers do not have the luxury of being choosy over their weather windows, if you're on your annual one-week off-piste adventure with the guide you tend to go out no matter what the weather might be throwing at you 90% of the time, and a good guide will select a ski area based on the weather conditions, that's how I discovered the trees of Serre Che when La Grave was closed.
If you're not with a guide but with some mates and you're doing in-resort off piste skiing then the likes of FatMap can help enormously, a fair number of people were none too impressed with the guy who gave away the majority of the crown jewels for Serre Chevalier routes/itineraries.
And after my trip to Siberia and my subsequent feature where I linked my Strava logs of the various days the owner of the outfit pleaded with me to take them off, as those routes, as no real mapping exists, are their Crown Jewels.
I know there is a very real frustration with Guides how their knowledge of an area can be exploited overnight via GPX tracks being shared.
However, we're pretty sure that in the past five years that lifts at altitude are remaining closed where once they would have opened up, and that could well be a by-product of people venturing more off-piste without the necessary skillsets, armed with FatMap?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
that could well be a by-product of people venturing more off-piste without the necessary skillsets, armed with FatMap?
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Spent a few summers working in a backcountry lodge as a hiking guide. In terms of hiking I've definitely seen it give people a certain overconfidence. They just assume because they have a GPX they are set and everything will be fine to the point where some pretty much skip any type of planning.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| Grinning wrote: |
I’ve used FatMap in tracking mode (not route-finding) on good long touring days and had adequate battery at the end as well as a nice memento (the recorded track) of the day. |
So you ski toured all day with your phone on? If we are talking avalanche beacon best-practice it's not a great habit to get into... Plus GPS inevitably one of the biggest power consumers on a phone when left on all day.
https://www.snowsafe.co.uk/smartphones-interfere-avalanche-transceivers/
| Weathercam wrote: |
| @Haggis_Trap, so what do you do in Italy then, as per my question on the previous page ? |
Eat pizza and carry a map / compass to back up your "phat-map" ? |
Actually, provided you are in airplane mode, a phone - even running GPS - will last a long time. The big energy sink is TRANSMITTING including pinging mobile base stations, not passively accessing GPS. I find leaving the camera app open (and I presume the CCD powered up) uses much more power than GPS.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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On a lighter note: @BobinCH loving the battery life at 10:39 
Bobinch declares screenshot taken this morning from comfort of home rather than trekking lonely around Mt Fort
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Wed 3-11-21 15:10; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| jedster wrote: |
Actually, provided you are in airplane mode, a phone - even running GPS - will last a long time. The big energy sink is TRANSMITTING including pinging mobile base stations, not passively accessing GPS. I find leaving the camera app open (and I presume the CCD powered up) uses much more power than GPS. |
Sure, Modern smart-phone batteries last longer than they used to. However there is no hiding from physics.
GPS (basically communicating with satellites in space for at 6-12mins to get accurate fix) is always going to be a relatively big power consumer.
Vast majority of phones will be running <30% battery after 12hrs of GPS tracking / screen usage in the cold. Plus there is the ever present issue of EMI interference with avalanche beacons.
| Quote: |
GPS is expensive because it is a very slow communication channel—you need to communicate with three or four satellites for an extended duration at 50 bits per second ... Mobile devices such as Android and the iPhone achieve their battery life largely because they can aggressively and quickly enter into and exit from sleep states. GPS prevents this.
Even with (data-assisted satellite acquisition) A-GPS, using your GPS is a noticeable battery hog. ... Compounding the cost, most mapping software is processor-intense. A well-designed app can make a significant difference here; Google Maps boasts several optimizations to reduce battery consumption from GPS usage. |
https://www.computerworld.com/article/2833266/why-gps-eats-so-much-battery-power--explained-by-a-google-engineer.html
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Wed 3-11-21 15:20; edited 1 time in total
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You know it makes sense.
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| Grinning wrote: |
On a lighter note: @BobinCH loving the battery life at 10:39
Bobinch declares screenshot taken this morning from comfort of home rather than trekking lonely around Mt Fort |
You’ll be reassured to know the new Fatmap/GPS blasting phone is on its way. Temps have dropped here so had to sacrifice the maps to kickstart the log fire
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| ...Yes, FatMap has some nice features. For me it's a planning rather than navigation tool. No one has said don't use it. ... |
Well you said precisely:
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
A map not an app?
Not sure if I should laugh or cry at this post |
Perhaps a less dogmatic attitude would make using modern technology less of a challenge?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| philwig wrote: |
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| ...Yes, FatMap has some nice features. For me it's a planning rather than navigation tool. No one has said don't use it. ... |
Well you said precisely:
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
A map not an app?
Not sure if I should laugh or cry at this post |
Perhaps a less dogmatic attitude would make using modern technology less of a challenge? |
Have you actually read the thread? Or just selectively quoted 2x different replies out of context in futile attempt to construct a strawman argument?
No one arguing we shouldn't use technology / GPS. Rather the point is we should be aware of it's limitations and how we use it. Stuff like FatMap should compliment traditional map & compass (rather than be excuse to leave it at home).
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
No one arguing we shouldn't use technology / GPS. Rather the point is we should be aware of it's limitations and how we use it
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My personal big takeaway from this thread is just how much technology can interfere with avalanche beacons. GPS watch will be going in the backpack rather than on wrist.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| philwig wrote: |
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| ...Yes, FatMap has some nice features. For me it's a planning rather than navigation tool. No one has said don't use it. ... |
Well you said precisely:
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
A map not an app?
Not sure if I should laugh or cry at this post |
Perhaps a less dogmatic attitude would make using modern technology less of a challenge? |
Have you actually read the thread? Or just selectively quoted 2x different replies out of context in futile attempt to construct a strawman argument?
No one arguing we shouldn't use technology / GPS. Rather the point is we should be aware of it's limitations and how we use it. Stuff like FatMap should compliment traditional map & compass (rather than be excuse to leave it at home). |
In fairness, you said its not a navigation tool only a planning one - that is pretty dogmatic. I described above in this thread just how valuable it can be as a navigation tool supplementing what you can do with map, compass and altimeter. You've not explained how I am wrong!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
My personal big takeaway from this thread is just how much technology can interfere with avalanche beacons. GPS watch will be going in the backpack rather than on wrist.
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This is the biggie. Poor management of electronics can stop your rescue kit working. Everything else is a distant second to good practice around that issue.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| jedster wrote: |
In fairness, you said its not a navigation tool only a planning one - that is pretty dogmatic. |
Read again : I said for me.... its a planning tool.
| jedster wrote: |
| I described above in this thread just how valuable it can be as a navigation tool supplementing what you can do with map, compass and altimeter. You've not explained how I am wrong! |
The key word being supplementing. Given that I agree with you (GPS is awesome) then we are actually on same page. The point some fail to grasp is that smart phones shouldn't replace map & compass. I write that as someone who has full set of OS maps on their phone (plus multiple apps such as TrailForks, Alpine Quest, OS locate etc)
FWIW : I have friends in Glencoe mountain rescue team. A frequent cause of call outs is groups navigating with just smart phones. Battery goes flat / phone dropped down a gully or smashed screen and very quickly they are in big trouble. No means of navigating or calling for help with location? Is it 'dogmatic' to suggest those incidents can be avoided?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Haggis_Trap, hmmm the way I read it you told the guy to use a map not an app. And then laughed at him.
And you followed up saying the phone should stay in the pocket for emergency calls so you don’t drop it down a crevasse or run out of battery.
Then you said you actually use an app yourself and they’re great but make sure you’ve got a map and compass as a backup
So to give you credit you did get to the right answer in the end 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
...My stance hasn't changed.
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Is anybody surprised?
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FAQ
