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FatMap on device?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Hi all,

I have identified a few lines / trips on fatmap that I would love to have on a device in the field.

I could put it on my phone, but my GPS on my phone just isn't that accurate outside in the mountains, and I really want to avoid falling down a cliff.

What do you all use to navigate?

Thanks

Max
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
A guide.
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telford_mike wrote:
A guide.


Very Happy
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I've put Fatmap and Alltrails and all the area apps and Outdooractive and its Austrian Alpine Club equivalent (Alpenvereinactiv - auf Deutsch, which is why both, but there's different free layers) and Powder Project and Google Earth and Google Maps and used to have Snow Buddy, but I removed that. I figure after I am there a few days, I'll have a lot more room on my phone as I delete things. Any app that I need to download things in advance, I'm doing it. My phone GPS is really good.
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telford_mike wrote:
A guide.


+1
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MaxiD wrote:

What do you all use to navigate?
Thanks
Max


A map not an app?

Not sure if I should laugh or cry at this post Laughing
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A lot of stuff. However if your phone GPS isn't working I'd upgrade it to one which does work.
I don't rely on any one device / person to navigate, but my phone has OsmAnd on it with the
contour plugin which works in UK and Canadian mountains at least.

ht wrote:
Not sure if I should laugh or cry at this post
Here's an excellent example of why relying on "a guide" isn't always a smart move, in circumstances when a map wouldn't help much either:
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/society/bad-weather_four-people-dead-in-swiss-alps-despite-rescue-operation/44086098
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http://youtube.com/v/mYrO10ggcvs
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philwig wrote:


ht wrote:
Not sure if I should laugh or cry at this post
Here's an excellent example of why relying on "a guide" isn't always a smart move, in circumstances when a map wouldn't help much either:
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/society/bad-weather_four-people-dead-in-swiss-alps-despite-rescue-operation/44086098


Bit of a naive statement. How many people were not on the mountain because the guide said no? How many got off safely because the guide made the right calls.
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I use Gaia gps , very good tool for any backcountry adventures , I got in at the start so have all the access and same with fat map , not sure how much the subscription is now it’s owned by outside
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Garmin inreach mini paired to the phone. Decent gps and ability to summon the thunderbirds if you do go off a cliff and there’s no phone reception
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telford_mike wrote:
A guide.


+2

On Tignes glacier last weekend I had both Ski Tracks and Garmin watch ski tracking running. On iPhone X I can tell you Ski Tracks elevation was hopeless, Garmin pretty much spot on. Ski Tracks finish elevation for a run down to the Vanois chair was 1,727. That's about 1000m low, in fact lower than Tignes Lac, where we parked the car. DO NOT rely on phone GPS elevation.
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@Dr John, don’t Garmin watches use a barometer for altitude?
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@Arno, Fenix 6 uses both, I believe. Has option to calibrate using DEM or GPS. Have to calibrate it every now and then, but once calibrated remains very accurate for the day.
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@Dr John, interesting. Suspect calibrating using GPS is a bit of a crapshoot
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@Arno, in my experience it's ok to get a read on where you are at any given point, but once you start moving around, up and down, then it struggles to keep up. Garmin using multiple sources results in greater accuracy. Couple of hours skiing Garmin recorded 3057m descent, Ski Tracks 5340m.
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Most people interested in this stuff probably know the altitude of the place they're starting the day from, that's what I'd set, not what the GPS says.

If you have two GPS receivers giving different results, that's interesting.
In mountains the geometry may be tricky, but that's the same for both devices if they're in the same location.
I wonder if it's not the internal model they're using, which could be different I suppose. This summarizes the issue:
https://eos-gnss.com/knowledge-base/articles/elevation-for-beginners

Alternatively some devices may be using multiple data sources, including built-in pressure sensors or maps etc.

Anyone here worked with that at all? My own GPS stuff was all 2d.
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@philwig, To add to the fun, Garmin watches (Fenix range at least) have option to use GPS only, GPS + GLOSNASS, or GPS + GALILEO. I use GPS + GLOSNASS, because GLOSNASS is apparently the more accurate at altitude, GALILEO more accurate in urban environments. I imagine this accounts for the different readings between my watch and phone. I think the Garmin watch also uses barometric pressure as a additional data feed after the elevation is calibrated. But I'm by no means an expert in such matters...
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MaxiD wrote:
Hi all,

I have identified a few lines / trips on fatmap that I would love to have on a device in the field.

I could put it on my phone, but my GPS on my phone just isn't that accurate outside in the mountains, and I really want to avoid falling down a cliff.

What do you all use to navigate?

Thanks

Max


I used fatmaps on my phone a few weeks ago when doing some mountaineering in the Alps. It was an absolute godsend in complex terrain. If fatmaps covers your area I would definitely try it on your phone. We found it very accurate to quite small distances on my iphone SE. If you download the maps you don't need data and the battery life is good. I also took screenshots of some renders and IGN segments before we set off. It is a fantastic tool.
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As said by others difference between ski tracks and Garmin is likely due to ski tracks using GPS, and Garmin using barometric pressure. Barometric pressure tends to be more accurate IME, but both have their flaws. Barometric pressure is affected by changes in weather (if your watch gives you storm warnings it's basing them off barometric pressure changes). GPS predicts altitude based on recorded altitude data for the position it thinks you are which can be problematic as your not always quite where it thinks. For example walking along the edge of a cliff and a small error might place you at the bottom and suddenly you've descended 200m+.

Worth remembering that just because you move from point a at 1000m to point b at 2000m you may well have over 1000m ascent if the terrain is undulating.

While it's nice to have accurate elevation so you know how much more you have to climb/descend, it's not really vital to navigation so maybe a bit of an unnecessary tangent.

Quote:

A map not an app?


You would be amazed at how many people are just using apps these days, with no kind of back up should the technology fail or battery run out etc. I'm by no means knocking GPS navigation, I use it and really like it's convenience, but a paper map doesn't add weight or take up space and is a necessary back up imo.

Quote:

A guide


In an ideal world, but not everyone has the money. I don't think a guide is necessary for ski touring, providing you have the basic skills and are picking suitable objectives based on your abilities. In this regard a good guide book should be sufficient to get you started.
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I always find it interesting when everyone says take a map/learn to use a map etc and don't rely on an app

I'd really bow down in reverence to the person who could find their way down through a forest avoiding cliff bands and the like, and when I say cliff bands even something like a rock band 2-3m high can cause issues when skiing off-piste.

I know of various routes even out of the forest where a map does not really show rocks, the only good thing that I have found is to scout the terrain in the summer, or in the winter ski tour up trying to find a route.

Exhibit A
https://www.strava.com/activities/4640933272

It is far easier in France as all ski-tour routes are on IGN maps, which you can use on your phone, and like as been said an In-reach connected to your phone is a good option.

This thread gives some interesting perspectives on navigation when I happened to loose my phone!
https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=155997
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Always found (in many, many years of professional guiding) phone GPS to be perfectly acceptable, both for location and altitude. You need to know the limitations and it helps to have a rough idea of where you are so that you can recognise when the GPS is a bit out and needs a second to catch up, but that applies to every GPS device I've ever used.

On smartphones, the app you're using can make a significant difference. I'd consider skitracks and the like to be gimmicks, not to be used for any serious nav. For actual navigation, I exclusively use IPhiGenie in France along with Tom's Trails (which has a new name now, can't remember it!) for an old-school style GPS display.
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Quote:

I always find it interesting when everyone says take a map/learn to use a map etc and don't rely on an app


I will always, where available, download a gpx and use that as my primary navigation because it's easy and convenient. But you can't beat having a map as a backup. I can think of a few examples where we've had to change plans (weather, snow conditions, tiredness) and the map has been invaluable allowing us to on the fly create a new route.

The other issue with downloading gpx routes is that they are only as good as the person that created them. I've seen plenty of bad routes (uneccessarily steep climbing, uneccessarily going through avalanche paths etc.).

For popular routes/areas a good guidebook with full descriptions, topo maps and photos is still the best planning tool.
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Weathercam wrote:
I always find it interesting when everyone says take a map/learn to use a map etc and don't rely on an app


Some very simple reasons:
1) Paper map & compass help you learn basic navigation skills (rather than relying on app as a crutch)
2) GPS drains battery of smart phone fast, particularly in cold.
3) Smart phone interfere with avalanche beacons.

For sure, apps are great. I use them for skiing, hiking & biking.
As do several UIAGM guide friends.

The basic point is that an app is never substitute for taking paper map out your pack.
That point particularity acute for skiing in high mountains (#2 and #3 above).
There are certain situations where best advice is to keep phone turned off - keep battery in case you need it to call for help in real emergency.
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Haggis_Trap wrote:
....There are certain situations where best advice is to keep phone turned off - keep battery in case you need it to call for help in real emergency....


Well if you're being that safety aware then I suggest you invest in a Garmin In-Reach, though I suspect that might conflict with your Scottish heritage Laughing

If you're ever out again in my neck of the woods I'd love to put your skills to the test Toofy Grin
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My only experience of using fatmap on a mobile is that it chomps through the battery.
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joffy69 wrote:
My only experience of using fatmap on a mobile is that it chomps through the battery.


I would think this would only be for recording tracks? If it's on your phone but not running until you need it then why would it be using battery life anymore than usual? I've always got Location on, even in the house, but I'm not running tracking apps. You download the maps in advance and just start the app occasionally to see where you are.
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Personally I would never rely on my phone for emergency use, I can't even get mobile reception at home, no chance anywhere in the back country (for me). Its usually the first thing I leave behind if travelling light - just use it for photos, music and maps.

The InReach is invaluable - much more useful than a PLB, just because it does reliable 2 way comms, so nobody has to panic if there's delays or a change of plans. It's useable to follow a route and has decent battery life, works nicely with a Fenix watch too.
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 You know it makes sense.
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Sorry a bit of a long post. Navigation can be like evaluating the snow pack it’s about collecting information and haveing the experiance to interpret that infomation.

For example, if you are going on a tour in good visibility, up a valley to a col and then returning the same way, you shouldn’t need a great amount of info, just a map (depending on experience).

But for complex terrain you want as much info as you can get. So for example if I am looking to do a route that is in complex terrain, I may do all or some of the following.

Planning
*Study the map to get an idea of the whole route.
*Look at the route on google earth or fatmap in 3d and plot the route.
*Read about it in guidebook/blogs (both paper and online) match the description to the map.
*Put the name of the route in google images or YouTube, may get some good photos or video of other on the route.
*Chat to friends or online to see if anyone has done it and advise on any tricky bits or thing to look for.
*Look to plan a walk in summer or a tour in winter that will allow me to get eyes on the route, maybe from another line.

All of the above allows me to get a good picture of the route in my head and identify features and things I can use to help navigate, and what to expect and options if it goes wrong. It makes it so much easier on the day.

I don’t do all of the above for every tour, I tend to go down the list until I feel happy I have the info I need.

On the day I tend to use a phone with IGN maps on it, I use this as it a quick easy reference guide. Checking the marker on the map is matching up to the world around me. I also carry a paper map and compass as well, as a back up.

Fatmap has its place as a good source of information, but for me it’s not enough on its own. Some people will blindly follow a line on an app, but soon or later it will catch them out.
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And what about Italy?

Italian maps are notoriously inaccurate!

That said when I tour over the border I can see where I'm going etc plus mellow terrain.
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Weathercam wrote:
Haggis_Trap wrote:
....There are certain situations where best advice is to keep phone turned off - keep battery in case you need it to call for help in real emergency....


Well if you're being that safety aware then I suggest you invest in a Garmin In-Reach, though I suspect that might conflict with your Scottish heritage Laughing


Benefit of Inreach depends where ski tour.
Most places in Alps / Scotland the phone signal is generally reliable.

Weathercam wrote:
If you're ever out again in my neck of the woods I'd love to put your skills to the test Toofy Grin


What the f--k has being Scottish got to do with it?

My navigation skills not perfect. But not using apps as crutch means they are better than most.

If you use your phone to navigate (and take pictures?) then it will inevitably drain battery or eventually get dropped / lost in snow. Far better to keep phone off in backpack. Suddenly without a phone you are in needlessly dangerous situation. No way of navigating or calling for help.

Of course smart phones interfer with avalanche beacons. Which is a
the only reason you should need to keep it turned off in pack.

Fwiw : Pre smart phones i had a stand alone Garmin GPS unit. It was reassuring to have it in pack. Though in 10 years I only really used in anger 3 or 4 times. Admittedly on those rare occasions I was very glad to have it (... generally on Cairngorm plateau in mist). The key to navigation is to always know where you are on map. Though that doesn't mean you can't use technology as appropriate.


Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sun 31-10-21 8:22; edited 3 times in total
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ecrinscollective wrote:

Fatmap has its place as a good source of information, but for me it’s not enough on its own. Some people will blindly follow a line on an app, but soon or later it will catch them out.


Agree : the place for FatMap is planning your day the night before.

Anyone using it as their only navigation source on a hiding to nothing.
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@Haggis_Trap, I was jesting about the expense/investment of an In-Reach for you Toofy Grin

And in our neck of the woods, there's many an area where phone signals are non-existent, hence the reason I invested in an InReach.

And that followed on from a Summer hike when one of our group was perhaps a little less fit and had a history of illness and started to find the going hard, I then realised without a phone signal how exposed we were if something happened.
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^ Inreach a good thing to have. Though its a slightly different discussion to using fat-map to navigate down a "sick-line" ? Very Happy

Fwiw : I would still be reaching for phone first in emergency (if signal available)?

One other thing : the OSlocate app is much better thing to have on your phone than what3words. Can use it to text your grid ref. Not as good as an Inreach, but no reason not to have it (it's free).
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Haggis_Trap wrote:
ecrinscollective wrote:

Fatmap has its place as a good source of information, but for me it’s not enough on its own. Some people will blindly follow a line on an app, but soon or later it will catch them out.


Agree : the place for FatMap is planning your day the night before.

Anyone using it as their only navigation source on a hiding to nothing.


Agree - never use it as your only tool. Based on my experience I will certainly take it with me AS WELL as a map in future. Why would you not?

Just an example - we were on very steep, complex ground with multiple stream bed/ravines, rock bands AND vegetation that limited your view. Then the mist came in and the light faded.

Fatmaps - with maps downloaded and data switched off - was able to fix our location better than was possible with a map, compass and altimeter not least because there was nothing to get a fix on! You can't even pace distances when you are scrambling down tricky terrain.
Why be without that or something similar?

The other thing I found useful was to take screen shots of zoomed in sections of IGN maps that I had been studying the night before (used fatmap but could have been something else). Looking at these was easier than unfolding a map and using a magnifying glass. You can do it selectively with complex sections of the route.

Another cool feature of fatmaps is you can get a 3d render of the IGN map. I'm OK at reading countours but in really steep alpine terrain where contours collapse together and buttress sketching obscures the lines it can be hard to make out exact terrain shapes for micro navigation through buttresses etc.
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If I’m stuck in the middle of a whiteout I’d much rather have FATMAP on a phone than a map and compass?

I subscribed to Fatmap (need to subscribe for the offline maps as cell reception very sketchy in some places) for this scenario because you can see your actual position against your planned route and literally pan around with your phone to orient yourself.

Appreciate if your battery runs out or lose your phone a physical map/compass is a backup but I’d hazard most amateurs will be much faster and more accurate on fatmap.
A phone with a good battery and backup battery pack are also important if you’re relying on a phone.

About to pull the trigger on a Garmin inReach and Freedom Plan subscription for the communication capabilities.
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BobinCH wrote:
If I’m stuck in the middle of a whiteout I’d much rather have FATMAP on a phone than a map and compass? .


What about a fat map on a phone with 20% battery at -8c? If the phone dies then suddenly you have no means of navigation or contacting help. Your minor problem just got really serious very quickly.

By the way : no one arguing we shouldn't use apps (technology is great). Rather be aware of their limitations and maintain the traditional skills like how to read a map properly.

Regarding proper use of tech : I would argue the primary purpose of phone is to call for emergency help (if required).
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I think you can overstate the battery issue. If you head out for the day with a reasonably full battery and put the phone in airplane mode, you’re unlikely to have too much of a problem. You can always carry a battery pack just in case.

On the topic of in-Reach I was pretty impressed with mine when I had a week somewhere with no phone reception. The messaging function is pretty handy and you can also set it up to track your movements so anyone interested can see you moving around and therefore (probably) not dead
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Arno wrote:
I think you can overstate the battery issue. If you head out for the day with a reasonably full battery and put the phone in airplane mode, you’re unlikely to have too much of a problem. You can always carry a battery pack just in case.


Fully agree : though primary reason to keep phone off is EMI interference with beacon (primarily in search mode admittedly).

If you take phone out pocket regularly for photos / navigation / WhatsApp (etc) it will eventually get dropped / lost / broken. Likely at least opportune moment. Though I would add that touchscreens don't work well with winter gloves on. Fine for a temporary location fix in a blizzard but not much else.
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Arno wrote:
I think you can overstate the battery issue. ...You can always carry a battery pack just in case.
You don't need a spare battery if there's more than one of you and you're smart enough to ration power as soon as any trip becomes "interesting".

ht wrote:
If you take phone out pocket regularly for photos / navigation / WhatsApp (etc) it will eventually get dropped / lost / broken
Paper maps also get wet or blown away or torn or out of date or lost.
The solution for those with this type of problem is a case and/ or a lanyard.
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