 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi all,
I'm in the market for a change of ski kit this season and as always drowning in the myriad of options out there. Historically I've used insulated jackets, currently with a Kjus Formula jacket and previously Mover, Schoffel, Salomon and Haglofs.
I'm eyeing up a a layering system this time round and wanted to get some advice on where to start? I quite like the look of the new Stellar Equipment Shell jackets but am getting stuck on the down element. Ideally I'm after something very lightweight with excellent warmth to weight ratios.
I've been pointed in the direction of a few options - what are peoples thoughts on the following:
- MontBell Plasma 1000 -
- Mountain Hardwear Ghost Whisperer/2
- RAB Kaon
- Stellar Guide Hyperlight 2.0
Thanks in advance for the guidnace.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Layering is definitely the way to go 
I've been very happy with my Patagonia nano puff jacket, not actually a down jacket but I find it nice and warm.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I have a layering system that I got from LL Bean a few years ago. The outer shell is 3 layer Goretex XCR - and then there is a zip-in Fleece and a zip-in Down Jacket (IIRC 850 fill).
My advice is to have Down as a Mid Layer under a waterproof shell - as it doesn't work well when wet.
Here is some advice: https://www.atlasandboots.com/travel-blog/how-to-choose-a-down-jacket/
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Tue 12-10-21 13:34; edited 2 times in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Old Fartbag wrote: |
I have a layering system that I got from LL Bean a few years ago. The outer shell is 3 layer Goretex XCR - and then there is a zip in Fleece and a zip Down Jacket (IIRC 750 fill).
My advice is to have Down as a Mid Layer under a waterproof shell - as it doesn't work well when wet.
Here is some advice: https://www.atlasandboots.com/travel-blog/how-to-choose-a-down-jacket/ |
Down isn’t really ideal as a mid-layer, as it doesn’t work well when compressed (you want it nice and ‘lofty’ with lots of air between the feathers to be able to insulate).
Personally even after trying a few Primaloft etc jackets I prefer simple fleece for a mid-layer. Plenty warm enough in heavier weights, but due to having no wind resistance to speak of it’s also more effective at dumping heat when you open vents and zips etc. Primaloft I still use fir a mid-layer when it will also often be the outerlayer, eg touring when I’ll just pull a shell on at the top for the descent.
I now only use down as an outer layer - almost never necessary when skiing, but I have worn a down jacket over my shell when touring in particular cold temps/high altitudes or overnight hut trips.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Tue 12-10-21 11:23; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Are down layers breathable?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| AL9000 wrote: |
| Are down layers breathable? |
Depends on the outer fabric. Down itself yes, but it’s normally packaged in wind/water resistant (to varying degrees) pertex etc.
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@clarky999, Ok. So there’s where he’ll have a (sweaty) problem.
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@Run28, have you looked at PHD ( www.phdesigns.co.uk ) - similar price point to Mont Bell, very high quality. IME the best warmth-for-weight that you'll find, and you can get it custom sized if necessary.
That said - those ultralight down jackets lose a lot of loft under compression, so I wouldn't use them under a fitted shell.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| clarky999 wrote: |
| Old Fartbag wrote: |
I have a layering system that I got from LL Bean a few years ago. The outer shell is 3 layer Goretex XCR - and then there is a zip in Fleece and a zip Down Jacket (IIRC 750 fill).
My advice is to have Down as a Mid Layer under a waterproof shell - as it doesn't work well when wet.
Here is some advice: https://www.atlasandboots.com/travel-blog/how-to-choose-a-down-jacket/ |
Down isn’t really ideal as a mid-layer, as it doesn’t work well when compressed (you want it nice and ‘lofty’ with lots of air between the feathers to be able to insulate).
Personally even after trying a few Primaloft etc jackets I prefer simple fleece for a mid-layer. Plenty warm enough in heavier weights, but due to having no wind resistance to speak of it’s also more effective at dumping heat when you open vents and zips etc. Primaloft I still use fir a mid-layer when it will also often be the outerlayer, eg touring when I’ll just pull a shell on at the top for the descent.
I now only use down as an outer layer - almost never necessary when skiing, but I have worn a down jacket over my shell when touring in particular cold temps/high altitudes or overnight hut trips. |
Interesting.
Personally, I find it is seldom cold enough to wear the down Jacket - and it isn't really robust enough to cope with the riggers of being the outer layer.
It may be slightly compressed under the roomy shell - but I still find it more than sufficient, as it is almost turning the Shell into a down insulated jacket - while being protected from getting wet.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Tue 12-10-21 11:35; edited 1 time in total
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Uniqlo - about £35 and plenty warm enough under a shell and over a base layer unless it is below -15C.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I have a MH Ghost Whisperer, at least I think that's what it is. It packs down to nothing and weighs about the same (it's in the gear photo (img 4) here: https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=156569 ). I wear a fleece as a mid-layer, but often carry the down for when it gets chilly on cold days, or for sitting around outside huts. I don't need to ski in it that often, but it works fine when I do, with a shell over the top.
I also have a proper chunky down jacket for standing around in the cold, but I'd never ski in that, it's far too warm.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Never worn down skiing and £400 for a Montbell - wtf, do you think I'm made of money!
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Interestingly, just answered a question about this on a non ski forum!
I definitely think a shell and varying mid layers are the way to go, my usual go to is an Arcteryx Atom LT which is synthetic with breathable side panels. I do have a fairly lightweight down jacket which I use more around resort but can fit under my shell if it is a very cold day as the shell was purchased slightly larger so room to layer without compressing the down. I generally run cold so unless it is very strenuous skiing and not very cold, sweating isn’t really an issue!
I also have a very light down vest which can work as an extra layer or for slightly warmer days when you don’t need a full mid layer.
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You know it makes sense.
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I have never worn a down jacket for skiing either, always gone for the layering system, but all to their own.
I purchased one of these whilst serving in Army in the 90's whilst having to spend 4 months in Norway (https://www.snugpak.com/.......Torrent extreme) and I still have it, one of the best insulated jackets I have ever owned and worked well down to the recommended minus 17 and further. I managed to pick up a nice colour when they first came out but it now looks like they have targeted the Military market, so choosing a non military colour may be an issue.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| clarky999 wrote: |
| Old Fartbag wrote: |
I have a layering system that I got from LL Bean a few years ago. The outer shell is 3 layer Goretex XCR - and then there is a zip in Fleece and a zip Down Jacket (IIRC 750 fill).
My advice is to have Down as a Mid Layer under a waterproof shell - as it doesn't work well when wet.
Here is some advice: https://www.atlasandboots.com/travel-blog/how-to-choose-a-down-jacket/ |
Down isn’t really ideal as a mid-layer, as it doesn’t work well when compressed (you want it nice and ‘lofty’ with lots of air between the feathers to be able to insulate).
Personally even after trying a few Primaloft etc jackets I prefer simple fleece for a mid-layer. Plenty warm enough in heavier weights, but due to having no wind resistance to speak of it’s also more effective at dumping heat when you open vents and zips etc. Primaloft I still use fir a mid-layer when it will also often be the outerlayer, eg touring when I’ll just pull a shell on at the top for the descent.
I now only use down as an outer layer - almost never necessary when skiing, but I have worn a down jacket over my shell when touring in particular cold temps/high altitudes or overnight hut trips. |
Totally this - down is not good as a midlayer because of compression but also because
a) the down retaining fabric has to be tight and so is very windproof this is poor for venting
b) if you get warm and damp at the base layer then the humid air will get into the down and knacker its insulation performance.
DOwn is great in very cold and dry conditions which means it is fine to throw over the top.
If you want a puffy midlayer then primaloft etc is a much better choice.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| jedster wrote: |
| clarky999 wrote: |
| Old Fartbag wrote: |
I have a layering system that I got from LL Bean a few years ago. The outer shell is 3 layer Goretex XCR - and then there is a zip in Fleece and a zip Down Jacket (IIRC 750 fill).
My advice is to have Down as a Mid Layer under a waterproof shell - as it doesn't work well when wet.
Here is some advice: https://www.atlasandboots.com/travel-blog/how-to-choose-a-down-jacket/ |
Down isn’t really ideal as a mid-layer, as it doesn’t work well when compressed (you want it nice and ‘lofty’ with lots of air between the feathers to be able to insulate).
Personally even after trying a few Primaloft etc jackets I prefer simple fleece for a mid-layer. Plenty warm enough in heavier weights, but due to having no wind resistance to speak of it’s also more effective at dumping heat when you open vents and zips etc. Primaloft I still use fir a mid-layer when it will also often be the outerlayer, eg touring when I’ll just pull a shell on at the top for the descent.
I now only use down as an outer layer - almost never necessary when skiing, but I have worn a down jacket over my shell when touring in particular cold temps/high altitudes or overnight hut trips. |
Totally this - down is not good as a midlayer because of compression but also because
a) the down retaining fabric has to be tight and so is very windproof this is poor for venting
b) if you get warm and damp at the base layer then the humid air will get into the down and knacker its insulation performance.
DOwn is great in very cold and dry conditions which means it is fine to throw over the top.
If you want a puffy midlayer then primaloft etc is a much better choice. |
Thanks all for your thoughts. Interesting point above re: Down vs Primaloft....hadn't given that much thought.
We normally ski in Zermatt in Dec - March - on the cooler side but it can turn quickly. Perhaps the better option is to go down the synthetic route if warmth, venting and quick drying are key factors?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
Perhaps the better option is to go down the synthetic route if warmth, venting and quick drying are key factors?
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I'd say it is because they are surely key factors.
I think down only makes sense as a midlayer if you are one of those people who runs very cold and doesn't sweat. It is great as a layer to carry in cold dry conditions to throw on top when you stop moving.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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If you fancy a really nice synthetic puffy the Patagonia nano puff range is supposed to be the one to have (I've not tried one).
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I’d go for Patagonia Nano Air. Super breathable and nice and cosy
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Run28, If you care about welfare of ducks and geese, do some research. I used to think that down came from birds killed humanely for meat. I now regret having bought down items in the past. A lot of down comes from China - animal welfare of zero importance. You can get ethically sourced down but I presume if it doesn't say so on the label, it probably isn't. I find wool the best for warmth and comfort, in various layers (according to the conditions) under my jacket. The jacket is synthetic, as they all are. I don't use fleece - I don't like it. I also now have a wool duvet - best I've ever had.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| jedster wrote: |
| If you fancy a really nice synthetic puffy the Patagonia nano puff range is supposed to be the one to have (I've not tried one). |
How do you ever swank around the streets of Les Contamines? I thought the patagucci nanopuffy was mandatory attire in proper mountain towns?
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Seconding @clarky999, I use neither synthetic or natural down as mid layers - I prefer a powerstretch fleece, or more often when touring, a polartech alpha jacket (which doubles brilliantly as an outer when touring up). I always carry a down in the pack for cold transitions / lunch stops. I've only needed to wear one as an outer when touring in brutal Norwegian conditions.
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It depends on what you mean by "skiing". If you're going to be doing high-speed cruising laps on a cold day, down is great. But one long bump run and you'd be braising yourself. One can usually predict the type of skiing one will be doing that day and choose accordingly.
I don't think Patagonia nano puffs are warm at all; they're for knocking around town. And they sure aren't "mandatory attire" in Teton Village anymore. Patagonia won't sell their stuff there due to the JHMR folks hosting a fundraiser for some awful people.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I wouldn’t go down either. Sometimes use a very light primaloft puffer under a shell, but that’s still really warm.
Favourite solution for me is polartec alpha mid layer under a light shell. It dumps heat really quickly, very breathable and really warm for the weight if the shell is zipped up.
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I think, even where there is a difference of opinion - there is also agreement ie. The people who use down, only do so very occasionally ie. When it is really cold, or where there is a lot of standing about in the cold. This means, I think, that everyone would agree that Down should not be the only day to day option.
As for whether it should be used as a Mid - I think it depends on how fitted the shell is. IMV If the shell is roomy, then there is little problem, provided the conditions are such, that it doesn't cause you to get excessively hot.
The article I linked to, recommends to "Use down as a mid-layer beneath an outer shell", for skiing.
So as with most things, the answer is, "It depends".
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Old Fartbag wrote: |
| I think, even where there is a difference of opinion - there is also agreement ie. The people who use down, only do so very occasionally ie. When it is really cold, or where there is a lot of standing about in the cold. This means, I think, that everyone would agree that Down should not be the only day to day option. |
I’ve got a heavyweight outer-layer down jacket, Icetown jacket from Salomon I think it’s called, which is stupidly warm. Can only wear it on the coldest of days when skiing, but on those days it’s awesome and I wouldn’t wear anything else. But for normal weather it’s way too hot to wear for skiing, so as a result the jacket is still in great condition despite being a few years old.
I’ve also got a few of Salomon’s mid layer down jackets, currently called Outspeed, which are terrific underneath a waterproof shell, for casual wear around the resort and for back in the UK. Prior to this I had a cheap down mid-layer jacket but it was useless at moisture management so it often felt damp, but the Salomon jackets (and I assume any similar jacket from a decent brand which is designed for skiing) doesn’t have this problem so it’s something I wear often, unless it is spring-skiing mild.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Arno, Agree with that 100%
Patagonia Nano Air (synthetic) is a brilliant piece of kit. . .packs down well, works in a huge range of temps and I never feel sweaty in it. Really versatile - can be used as a mid layer under a shell or over it at lunch if its nippy. Wouldn't use it as an outer layer per se as the fabric is delicate but would if wearing it apres etc.
So good I have 2 of these (hooded and unhooded) and would buy another without hesitation . . .
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You know it makes sense.
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Do people really need help knowing how to dress? Is this for real, do you need to know what to eat when you're hungry?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@CH2O, Not quite the same - the OP could end up making an expensive mistake . . .not quite like being advised to never eat at L
e manoir aux quat'saisons
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Poster: A snowHead
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I just got a phenix raptor from tkmaxx £130. Worth a punt.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| GlasgowCyclops wrote: |
| I just got a phenix raptor from tkmaxx £130. Worth a punt. |
Very nice.
Is it true to size?
Daughter possibly looking at Phenix - and it says "Super Slim" fit.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| CH2O wrote: |
| Do people really need help knowing how to dress? Is this for real, do you need to know what to eat when you're hungry? |
The original question was about down mid layers - and the general consensus. Are they worth the money etc.
What’s been invaluable is the advice towards synthetic over down if you are actually wearing it in the layering system under a shell.
The difference between spending under £200 or well well over.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Quality ski orientated technical kit at Primark.
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@Run28, Too much marketing bollox around these days.
It’s an insulation layer, so meh.
Bought 2 for £15 fleece zip-neck tops from there. Even had zip chest pockets for fags - perfect 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Can you please report back.
It looks like lovely gear....but fairly fitted.
I would expect the Women's version to be more fitted though.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| jedster wrote: |
| If you fancy a really nice synthetic puffy the Patagonia nano puff range is supposed to be the one to have (I've not tried one). |
How do you ever swank around the streets of Les Contamines? I thought the patagucci nanopuffy was mandatory attire in proper mountain towns? |
I was in Les Contamines last week. My mate was wearing his. Not many people about and we generally ate and drunk at home so I didn't suffer to badly from status anxiety!
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FAQ
