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Covid Testing Returning to UK

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@KathE, @gra, if you can keep up the reporting on the calls and checks please.

I presume if you get a phone call you can always advise them that on day 5 you plan to be going out for a PCR test etc?

Plan is to "exercise" the dogs very early in the morning straight outside where we live on the beach (we don't have a garden) and a more cautious one around mid-day and then again in the evening. One of us will be indoors so should we get a call on the dodgy flat intercom system which I presume will never be too early in the morning the one indoors can ring the other one up on the beach and within a couple of mins we can turn up and face the music and appeal to common sense etc, but just hoping those % odds are too great for that to actually occur?

It will be immensely frustrating if it's blowing and I'm stuck indoors and can't kitesurf, that will be tough, equivalent of missing out on a powder day Shocked

@brianatab, VW Transporter Cool
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Weathercam, that’s quite a detailed explanation of how you plan to systematically break the law. Thanks for sharing.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@rob@rar, I knew when I wrote that there would be those that could not resist making a comment, I'm just awaiting the usual suspects to weigh in now Laughing

But at least I say I'm prepared to face the music and I'll appeal to their (people checking-up) common sense as I'm keeping myself to myself etc etc

Now if I was to go for a 5km run as well.......

I'll also when driving back will probably break the law as well on a couple of occasions too.


Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Sun 18-04-21 7:44; edited 6 times in total
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Weathercam wrote:
But at least I say I'm prepared to face the music ...
That’s very noble of you.

Am I a “usual suspect” on this? IIRC this is the first time I’ve commented on quarantine arrangements.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@rob@rar, no you are not, I was actually quite surprised Laughing
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Weathercam wrote:
@rob@rar, no you are not, I was actually quite surprised Laughing
As I was by your post. I guess we live in surprising times.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Weathercam wrote:
@rob@rar, I knew when I wrote that there would be those that could not resist making a comment...
Quick observation on your edit: why did you write that post? If I was planning systematically to break the law I'd not do so with a bit of a song and dance about it on social media, not least because it would seem disrespectful to those people who do abide by the law. You don't strike me as a disrespectful chap, hence my surprise and my comment.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@Weathercam I was advised you would need to use dog-walking services, or ask a family member to walk them for you when I enquired about travelling last August just after they brought in quarantine. It was on of our concerns about travelling.
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Hells Bells wrote:
@Weathercam I was advised you would need to use dog-walking services, or ask a family member to walk them for you when I enquired about travelling last August just after they brought in quarantine. It was on of our concerns about travelling.
That's correct, walking the dog is not an allowed exception in the quarantine legislation. Leaving your quarantine premises to get essential medication for a pet is an allowed exception.
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
@rob@rar, it's a difficult one and I'll not be breaking the law in a blatant way as I'm sure some will appreciate.

Can't ask our daughters as they live together as one of them is a Sports Massage therapist so we will not see her as she is now open for business and dealing with clients.

And I'm not going down the dog-walking route as I don't want total strangers, for various reasons either way I'll be keeping myself to myself.

Like I say pretty sure going back I might be driving on the odd occasion at 132kph, alert the Gendarmes Laughing

I suppose I could bend the rules as per 9-G-1

To obtain basic necessities such as food and medical supplies for those in the same household (including any pets or animals in the household) where it is not possible to obtain these provisions in any other manner,

As we might have run out of milk ?


Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Sun 18-04-21 8:17; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Weathercam wrote:
@rob@rar, it's a difficult one and I'll not be breaking the law in a blatant way
Sure, these issues are tricky, but I can't agree that you won't be breaking the law in a blatant way. The fact that we are having this discussion shows you are planning blatantly to break the law, three times a day for the duration of your quarantine with a strategy for avoiding enforcement action, which you have outlined in a public post on social media. I think that meets fully the definition of blatant.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@rob@rar, OK to a certain degree I'll concur with you on your definition of blatant then.

It's more out of frustration really with the rules which I know have to be there for many that do not abide to common sense etc.

As you know driving back via the tunnel we're not going to be in contact with anyone from the moment we leave France (with antigen test) to arriving back in the UK, apart from getting the dogs checked at the Tunnel if we're being pedantic.

These rules are in place to prevent the potential spread of Covid and ensure that people are not mixing etc we will remain in our bubble not socialise and mix.

So I will not encounter anyone in the 50m from my front door to the beach, where I will remain for circa 5 mins.

Unless of course we run out of milk Laughing


Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Sun 18-04-21 8:59; edited 2 times in total
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
I don't know if this is the right thread, or if it's in any way interesting, but I've had both jabs (the second nearly three weeks ago) but I've just had a PCR test, which came back negative within 48 hours. The reason for this was the outbreak of the South African variant in Wandsworth, where I live, and Lambeth, which led to the NHS and the local council urging everyone to get tested, vaccinated or not. Whether this message has got through in any numbers, I'm not sure: I certainly know of at least one person who thought that, because she had been vaccinated twice, she did not need to be tested.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
...... you are allowed to go out to post the 'in quarantine' tests......you'll just have to happen to take the dog with you.... Out once to post your test and then again later on to post test on behalf of OH.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
For information: here's a useful explanation about why Bayes Theorem means that the headline accuracy rates of tests are often grossly optimistic. Also termed the 'Prosecutors Error' syndrome. It explains how, while a test can be 99.99% accurate, you can still end up with a 25% error rate. It's all to do with 'prior probability'.


Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Sun 18-04-21 9:09; edited 3 times in total
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Mrs S' Now Day 8 test result, on 1 April, now arrived from Oncologica labs. Sample received 16 April?? when Royal Mail tracking showed it delivered am 2 April. My sample went at same time, result 3 April.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
LaForet wrote:
For information: here's a useful explanation about why Bayes Theorem means that the headline accuracy rates of tests are often grossly optimistic. Also termed the 'Prosecutors Error' syndrome. It explains how, while a test can be 99.99% accurate, you can still end up with a 25% error rate. It's all to do with 'prior probability'.
I enjoyed that article when I read it this morning, the clearest explanation I've seen of the issue. What it didn't deal with, of course, is the role that mass testing can play in helping to reduce the spread of the infection through a population (the point which Hurtle has just illustrated), even if at an individual level LF tests are not a reliable assurance of non-infection.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
colinstone wrote:
Mrs S' Now Day 8 test result, on 1 April, now arrived from Oncologica labs. Sample received 16 April?? when Royal Mail tracking showed it delivered am 2 April. My sample went at same time, result 3 April.
That sounds like a laboratory to avoid!

I do a weekly PCR test with the NHS Test & Trace service. It's now extremely reliable. I post my test on a Wednesday, when it is collected from my local postbox at 4.30pm. Email and text message informing me of the result around 10pm the following day, regular as clockwork.
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@LaForet, exactly, so I would conclude that when the virus prevalence is low, as we are getting to now, then mass asymptomatic testing is an utter waste of time, energy & money, causing more harm than good.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@Weathercam, why don’t you just abide by the rules? Isn’t that what they are there for......instead you post how you are intending to bend them for your own benefit on a public forum.....if I were a local Sussex (or wherever you live) person residing in your area who’d been shielding while you have been ski touring and cycling around the Alps, and now hear you want to bend the rules for your own ends I’d be pretty p’d off.....its your conscience, do what you feel works for you, and what you can get away with if that’s what makes you happy. If you plan on running out of milk then order a delivery from a supermarket, don’t go into someone’s shop who has been delivering a service throughout lockdown and is at high risk.


Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Sun 18-04-21 9:19; edited 1 time in total
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rob@rar wrote:
LaForet wrote:
For information: here's a useful explanation about why Bayes Theorem means that the headline accuracy rates of tests are often grossly optimistic. Also termed the 'Prosecutors Error' syndrome. It explains how, while a test can be 99.99% accurate, you can still end up with a 25% error rate. It's all to do with 'prior probability'.
I enjoyed that article when I read it this morning, the clearest explanation I've seen of the issue. What it didn't deal with, of course, is the role that mass testing can play in helping to reduce the spread of the infection through a population (the point which Hurtle has just illustrated), even if at an individual level LF tests are not a reliable assurance of non-infection.

I agree with you - and I'm not arguing against any sort of testing in this case, because the consequences of a false positive are just inconvenience. The benefits outweigh the downsides. It's much more important for illnesses where a false positive means moving on to intrusive/dangerous exploratory surgery, biopsies or treatments that then turn out to have been unnecessary, and just a product of the Bayes effect. The danger with Covid is that people lose confidence in the statistics if this sort of thing isn't explained carefully.

As an example (insofar as I understand the explanations): Our area currently has a 20-in-100,000 infection rate -
But of course, not all 70,000 people in our Borough are tested every week.
Say that 5,000 people here were tested for one reason or another.
Then that test cohort will statistically have 1 infected person in it. Let's imagine they get identified as positive.
A 99.99% accuracy means 1 false positive per 10,000 tests.
So the 5,000 tested return one 50:50 false positive and one true positive.
And thus a 99.99% accurate test throws up 2 positives in the 5,000 sample - one true and one 50:50 true:false.
To make it rounder, out of 10,000 people tested, 3 would be true positives and 1 would be false positive - a 25% false rate.

[CORRECTED after my error was pointed out]


Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Mon 19-04-21 8:57; edited 3 times in total
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
LaForet wrote:
I agree with you - and I'm not arguing against any sort of testing in this case, because the consequences of a false positive are just inconvenience.
Indeed, and you can reduce the chances considerably of a false positive causing inconvenience by taking a second, confirmatory test the following day, even if it is only another LF test.

Imagine the world we would be facing now if the spread of the UK variant had been halted, or considerably curtailed, by mass testing in Kent when the first examples of that mutation had been detected back in September...
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Quote:

It's more out of frustration really with the rules which I know have to be there for many that do not abide to common sense etc.


i.e. You!
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Markymark29 wrote:
@Weathercam, why don’t you just abide by the rules? Isn’t that what they are there for......instead you post how you are intending to bend them for your own benefit on a public forum.....if I were a local Sussex (or wherever you live) person residing in your area who’d been shielding while you have been ski touring and cycling around the Alps, and now hear you want to bend the rules for your own ends I’d be pretty p’d off.....its your conscience, do what you feel works for you, and what you can get away with if that’s what makes you happy. If you plan on running out of milk then order a delivery from a supermarket, don’t go into someone’s shop who has been delivering a service throughout lockdown and is at high risk.


He doesn't care. If he does blatantly break the law and it is evidenced here it would be easy enough for someone to dob him in given his name and address are in the public domain.
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
LaForet wrote:
As an example (insofar as I understand the explanations): Our area currently has a 20-in-100,000 infection rate -
But of course, not all 70,000 people in our Borough are tested every week.
Say that 5,000 people here were tested for one reason or another.
Then that test cohort will statistically have 1 infected person in it. Let's imagine they get identified as positive.
A 99.99% accuracy means 1 false positive per 1,000 tests.
So the 5,000 tested return 5 false positives and 1 true positive.
And thus a 99.99% accurate test throws up 5x the number of false positives as true positives.
A good illustration of the issue. I suppose for me the question is at what threshold of infections in the community does LF testing become a good plan, with the benefits outweighing the disadvantages? In your example, is the cost of those 5,000 tests and the potential disruption to the five false positive cases, worthwhile to identify that one true positive case who might not be identified in other ways? Is that equation altered if the one true positive case which is identified happens to be infected by the new Indian variant which is causing concern in South London at the moment, for example?

I think these are finely balanced judgements, and those who argue categorically that LF testing is worthless and those who argue categorically that it is essential are both failing to weigh the pros and cons.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@rob@rar, Regarding mass LF testing, the price will run to at least tens of billions of pounds (Moonshot estimate is £100 billion!) for an unevaluated mass testing scheme which will result in tens of thousands of people per week having to isolate unnecessarily: hardly a storm in a teacup. Especially with waiting lists rising and money needed to rebuild services for everyone.
To me, a further negative is the increased medicalisation of society to a level which is far from
normal, and acceptance of the tendency to push healthy people to live and behave as if they are ill.

BMJ had many concerns over mass LF testing:
https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2021/01/12/covid-19-government-must-urgently-rethink-lateral-flow-test-roll-out/
Parliamentary committee also with many concerns, including contracting to private companies with no experience of mass public health testing:
https://committees.parliament.uk/publications/4976/documents/50058/default/
More on the folly of mass testing

https://research-information.bris.ac.uk/ws/portalfiles/portal/245953726/ISAGE_advice_note_5_june_2020fv_lessons_from_screening_programmes.pd
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
gra wrote:
@rob@rar, Regarding mass LF testing, the price will run to at least tens of billions of pounds (Moonshot estimate is £100 billion!) for an unevaluated mass testing scheme which will result in tens of thousands of people per week having to isolate unnecessarily: hardly a storm in a teacup. Especially with waiting lists rising and money needed to rebuild services for everyone.
To me, a further negative is the increased medicalisation of society to a level which is far from
normal, and acceptance of the tendency to push healthy people to live and behave as if they are ill.

BMJ had many concerns over mass LF testing:
https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2021/01/12/covid-19-government-must-urgently-rethink-lateral-flow-test-roll-out/
Parliamentary committee also with many concerns, including contracting to private companies with no experience of mass public health testing:
https://committees.parliament.uk/publications/4976/documents/50058/default/
More on the folly of mass testing

https://research-information.bris.ac.uk/ws/portalfiles/portal/245953726/ISAGE_advice_note_5_june_2020fv_lessons_from_screening_programmes.pd
I recognise the concerns, but in some situations I think the benefits outweigh the disadvantages. Where that line rests is a difficult thing to get right, but nevertheless I think it exists.
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
No judgement here. My daughter got back from Switzerland on Thursday. Negative pcr before she left. Took the train. Her testing kits were already here. She was phoned on Friday by a woman who got her name wrong Eh oh! but she corrected herself when I said she had the wrong number. It was at about 3pm. Nothing yesterday. Test done and posted. Can’t see any harm myself In walking your dog if you choose a time and place where you are not going to meet anyone.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
LaForet wrote:
... As an example (insofar as I understand the explanations): Our area currently has a 20-in-100,000 infection rate -
But of course, not all 70,000 people in our Borough are tested every week.
Say that 5,000 people here were tested for one reason or another.
Then that test cohort will statistically have 1 infected person in it. Let's imagine they get identified as positive.
A 99.99% accuracy means 1 false positive per 1,000 tests.
So the 5,000 tested return 5 false positives and 1 true positive.
And thus a 99.99% accurate test throws up 5x the number of false positives as true positives.

I think you've got the principles correct, but not the maths. 99.99% accuracy would mean 1 false positive per 10,000 tests, so 0-1 false positives and 1 true positive per 5000 tests, which would mean a positive test result gives a 50-100% probability that you have the disease.

Your conclusion on Covid-19 (only a 16% probability of having the disease given a positive LF test at current levels of infection) is broadly correct, because the estimated LFT accuracy is only 99.9%, not 99.99%. Most people would probably think that 99.9% and 99.99% accuracy are fairly similar, but this demonstrates that they can lead to very different results.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@ecuril Yes, I think you're right. I was remedial maths at school. This would also be consistent with the reporting that I've read, which if I recall, was trying to explain why a 99.99% accuracy number can still yield only a 50% accuracy number (if you use the accuracy term carelessly).

Of course, there is still the point that (a) the test picks up almost all the actual positives and (b) at low infection rates, although the relative number of false positives is surprisingly high (given the 99.9%/99.99% headline figure) the absolute number of false positives is arguably relatively low i.e. not a lot of people are inconvenienced by the need to take a second test that turns out to prove their first was a false positive. So the argument is not that the testing is ineffective (it picks up the positives successfully) but more whether the whole exercise is cost-effective.

My own opinion is that in a continuing pandemic, it seems sensible to insist on arrivals to the UK having a test as (a) you can't be certain what the infection rates are abroad (especially when holiday destinations seem particularly prone to higher rates than in the country generally) (b) we know from experience that we're barely able to track and trace variants once they 'land and expand' and (c) the UK doesn't incarcerate quarantine arrivals but relies on self-quarantining, with its attendant risk of non-conformance.

As for large-scale internal UK venues, events, and public-facing employment, it also seems reasonable to demand tests until we reach herd immunity levels of vaccination. Once we're past herd immunity, it then becomes much more questionable as to the cost-effectiveness of testing. Although that still leaves the thorny question of whether vaccination certificates would still be required or not. I still think that the Royal Society Report 12 Criteria for the development and use of COVID-19 vaccine passports as well as being free, is the best and most balanced discussion of what any system needs to look like if it's to be acceptable
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Passports would be less emotive if everyone called for what they are - certificate. Particularly the media - and the Economist!!.
No one batted an eyelid with all the other assorted vaccination documentation.
The main problem remains, and will always be, too many people too close together for too long. Remove any side of that triangle and infection will disappear. Just like the Fire triangle for fire - fuel, heat, oxygen.
Even if vaccinated or previous infection.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Update & back on the quarantine topic: no call for me today, having been a good boy & answered my calls all week. My wife however had her 2nd visit in 3 days from Home Office officials, 09:30 on Sunday morning (apparently their 10th call of the morning) despite having done the day 5 test to release a couple of days ago & being out of the system. No issue for her but irritating as in many cases they don’t put this much effort in to track violent criminals nor to track/support people with cancer or other serious conditions, & represents nugatory effort wasting yet more public money.
Lesson is: don’t miss your calls and become “flagged”, do whatever it takes to keep a phone free and to hand. (I arranged biz calls on another phone & kept the registered one free...)
Don’t expect to discuss your situation either over the phone or face to face, these are low level staff with instructions to ask a question or take a photo, and all those we have encountered had poor English and seemed unable to understand or discuss any changes to our initial scenario (ie the chance in plan to now TTR on day 5).
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
We had no phone calls today, although interestingly we did have a missed call yesterday from them on the mobile number. We're assuming it was for the OH as I had a call on the landline half an hour earlier. Why they called the mobile number when we had given them a landline who knows....... the landline is the home number - the mobile could be anywhere. There's been no follow up so far so we shall see. Also when they did ring the landline to speak to me, OH answered the phone but they had no interest in talking to him at all. Day 2 tests done today and the permitted walk to the priority post box 0.5 miles down the road and back.
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I'll be back soon and ignoring the quarantine rules as they're extraordinarily stupid. If you've obeyed them: you're a fool. That's your problem however.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@boobleblooble, agree in part - the rules are stupid but I can also see there needs to be a way to ensure anyone coming into the country carrying the virus unknowingly, doesn't then go sharing it around. Common sense needs to be applied - which is where the rules fail. Allowed to walk half a mile to the postbox but not walk your dog - makes no sense. If you are sensible, wear a mask and avoid others when outside I don't see what the problem is. It makes no real difference to us, I'm working from home all week and OH was made redundant in Oct (hence we were able to spend the last 4 months in France). Not being allowed out for a couple of weekends is a hardship we're willing to put up with. Online shop arrived yesterday and phone call for me today on my mobile, typically while I was in a meeting so missed the call but they rang back 30 mins later on the landline with no query as to why I didn't answer the mobile.
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I passed through the uk border six weeks ago as OH 90/180 days were up
It is a requirement to have preordered the 2 tests from the uk government in order to complete the passenger locator form.
It took two and half hours for 15 cars to pass border control at the eurotunnel for staff to meticulously check PCR test authenticity. passenger locator form and question the need to travel
The mandatory £210 tests were waiting in the post at uk address
We were called every day at the same time to verify our where abouts. If you do not answer they do not call back but call again at the same time the following day,
We gave one mobile number for both of us
It is permissible to shop for food
I went on foot to shop for food with my dog.
The uk was in lock down so ovaltine did not alter my behaviour. Very malty.
The extra five day test and wait 2days for test confirmation did not seem to be worth the extra nose drill.
OH now has 6 month visa for France which was efficient to get but you have to personally present and leave passport for up to 15 days, it arrived in 10.
Dog has both French and uk passports so hopefully should enter France with the same ease as entering UK with appropriate passport
We both now have first jabs, felt a bit under the weather but no way like having covid.
The uk housing market is on fire(just not urban flats or high rise flats which are literally on fire), sold uk house for a very tidy sum.
Let’s see how pedantic la douane are with a van of old tat but hopefully ok since principle residence is in France.
Couldn’t get around the malus so will have dump uk registered vehicles that are not ulez compliant, oh well, adapt and survive.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
gra, KathE, Crevasse dweller, thank you for the info. Very helpful.
Though regulations will probably have changed by the time we come back.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Has any one had to change flights recently? What happens when you get off one flight go through security get your luggage and go back on the next plane? Is the Covid test you took before leaving the UK valid for all the flights? Information on various official sites is quite confusing. Flights would go either, via Paris or Amsterdam.
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@CaravanSkier, have a look at this site.......really helpful and clarified rules for you. https://reopen.europa.eu/en/map/FRA/7004
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
So day four of quarantine, and we've both been rung-up every day so far.

I've had some great friendly chats now with three of them, very much Anglo Saxon, it's almost like it breaks the monotony up for them, but the OH's have all been Asian sounding.

They do an 8 hr shift and don't start calling until 09:30 and go up to 20:00 all our calls have been within an hour or so from 12:30.

We dropped a spanner in the works coming back when we did, as no post on Sunday (Day 2 or our test) and pretty sure the package which I dropped off in the Priority Post box (by way of a 50ml bike ride*) would not have been collected today till 18:30 due to Bank Holiday Monday.

And I was a little confused about what is Day 5 and at UK Border patrol at Eurotunnel I asked them when / how / from is the fifth day calculated and they admitted that they were not too sure.

On the Gov website it says that you can't do the "test to release" test until you have been in England for 5 full days, and the first day on being rung up by people checking we asked them in two separate conversations and they categorically stated that we can take the Test to Release on the 5th day.

We were going to do the Day 5 test to release driving up to Gatwick on Wednesday paying an arm and a leg but the cheapskate in me came to the fore and I found an outfit for £45 https://www.eurofins.co.uk/pcr-testing-kits/test-to-release/

Only trouble is that I think we may be waiting till Day 7 to get the result rolling eyes

So now listening to the same telephone script each day is getting a bit tiresome.

* and only joking about the bike ride to get some of you going Laughing

And luckily I'm getting over a bad back so could not have gone out on the water yesterday anyway but had to watch mates ripping it up.

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