 Poster: A snowHead
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@under a new name,'s mention of EES and ETIAS sent me down a rabbit-hole. Both become operational next year.
ETIAS is the electronic visa-waiver system, whenever a brit (or any tcn from an approved country) enters Schengen they must have pre-applied and paid online for an ETIAS visa-waiver. This seems to also include tcn's resident in Schengen (or at least no mention of any exemption). The fee has not been published, the visa-waiver will be valid for multiple-entry for three years.
EES is the Schengen-wide biometric entry-exit system with a central database. It will use fingerprint and face-recognition to record and police every human entry into and exit from Schengenland by land, sea, or air. It will police the 90/180 rules, and do away with passport stamping altogether. Part of the data it is allowed to store, is details of the person's "travel documents". IF that includes details of tcn's holding a Schengen-state residence visa, perhaps it will be programmed to not electronically "stamp your passport" and start your 90/180 clock. If not, we will all have to get used to being "identified" and pulled aside (to join the queue) to explain ourselves whenever returning home from non-Schengen. Won't that be fun... 
It doesn't appear it will have any capability to monitor tpn's with residence in one Schengen state traveling around at will inside Schengen. If the authorities care about that (and I'm sure some of them do  ), that will have to wait for another even more fancy system to be developed and given a CAPITAL LETTER acronym  
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@shep, and what if you have a residency permit in the Schengen area eg Switzerland. This isn’t linked to the passport as far as I am aware?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@shep, yep, I had a vague idea that that's what those were. And I note the specific exemption for WA residencies from those programs, link page 8 ...
"WA beneficiaries will be exempt from the EES and ETIAS, as they have the right to reside in their host MS going beyond 90 days within 180 days" Quite how that relates to post WA residence rights escapes me 
@BobinCH carte de sejour is not related to passport either. Very similar to Swiss "permis". Mine is both "permanent" = +/- "permis C" and "unlimitee" in terms of work (I think they can be restricted in professional capacity).
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I suspect there is an amount of unnecessary but understandable worry here. For years we have used some non EEA freelancers (Canadian, Aussie) who are resident in Germany, they have all the relevant paperwork. They have been all over Europe working for us with never an issue and as far as I am aware have never had any personal issues with private travel. I suspect that legally some of this is dubious but it has never been questioned. There is no point at which anyone would check what they were doing. Passport details do get recorded at hotels in most countries but that is not linked to the Schengen database. They would face an issue if say they wanted to move permanently to France but in practical terms they are no different to anyone else here.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@munich_irish, practically I'm sure you're mostly right, legally, unless, I wonder, if their German visas cover intra Schengen travel, then I don't think so. I'm just keen to make sure that when I do travel again, that I'm not going to find myself caught out.
Oh, and I skipped over your comment above, sorry.
Just to be extremely clear, at no point have I been referring to Freedom of Movement (of)... in an EU key freedoms sense (be that persons, labor, et al.), in case that wasn't clear (probs not). Merely intra-Schengen visa-less travel and no pesky 90/180 day limit (not, frankly, that that would be a problem these days, although it may have been in years past).
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@under a new name, fine but doesn’t answer my not very clear question. I have a UK passport, on arriving in France for example, I need this new visa waiver due to British passport. But as Swiss resident I assume I don’t need it. The French have no idea about my Swiss permit as it isn’t linked to passport so they block my entry non?
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| BobinCH wrote: |
| @shep, and what if you have a residency permit in the Schengen area eg Switzerland. This isn’t linked to the passport as far as I am aware? |
I'm far from an expert (unless and hour's googling makes you an expert these days!  ), but if ETIAS is to be programmed to treat Schengen residency permit holders differently to any old tcn, then I guess both your passport and residency visa details would need to be stored (either automatically or voluntarily?), and therefore linked by both being part of your ETIAS identity.
| under a new name wrote: |
@shep, yep, I had a vague idea that that's what those were. And I note the specific exemption for WA residencies from those programs, link page 8 ...
"WA beneficiaries will be exempt from the EES and ETIAS, as they have the right to reside in their host MS going beyond 90 days within 180 days" |
Ah, that's what I get for not reading your link! I can see it's a simple matter to exempt Schengen residents from ETIAS, But since EES monitors everyone entering and leaving for all kind of criteria, there can't be an exemption from it; only (hopefully) an exemption from it applying the 90/180 rules. It will still be evaluating your entry/exit for all its other big-brother purposes.
@munich_irish, I think you're right, once you're inside Schengen. And best to be documented in Germany if anywhere, as that's the EU country most likely to control these things internally. I was once in charge of a project in Germany where my Californian employers decided to bring their Mexican technicians over to work on tourist visas. That did not end well after the raid by the German immigration authorities... ).
However, once EES is operational, they may well experience some difficulties getting in and out of Schengen. Or maybe not
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@BobinCH, Oh I see what you mean. I am going to presume that it'll work as I think my French one works.
That is, on arrival (in my case my external border will almost invariably be GVA) I'll present my passport and CdS to the (if it will exist) Shengen/No Visa passport officer (my recollection was that it was previously EU/EEA/UK or ALL, perhaps this may change to accommodate more appropriately as UK no longer special case but it will technically be Shengen/No Visa vs Visa) and be waved through.
You would present your passport and permis.
So yet more reduced paperwork. No. Wait! What?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Most of the discussion is completely moot. There are no passport controls between Switzerland & France, even at the moment the checks are health related not immigration. That is the same between any Schengen countries, that's the point. At the Schengen border there will be checks and UK citizens can no longer use the Schengen lane (where that exists) and (if they dont hold residency in a Schengen country) will get their passports stamped. It will probably take a while (perhaps always) for the no stamp message to get through everywhere. I suspect there will be some immigration officers who will continue to stamp whatever the rules simply to be difficult. Yes that might cause grief occasionally but that is a direct consequence of the decisions taken. The 90 out of 180 day thing is only really going to affect non EEA folk living outside of Schengen, it is likely to be a real pain for Brits who own properties in France, Spain, Austria etc. For someone living legally in a Schengen country it ii unlikely to cause any grief at all.
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| Quote: |
The 90 out of 180 day thing is only really going to affect non EEA folk living outside of Schengen, it is likely to be a real pain for Brits who own properties in France, Spain, Austria etc.
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... and those who simply want to rent a place and stay longer than 90 days. In both cases my expectation is that a long-stay visa should fix things in the majority of cases. It would be good, in due course, to hear of people's experiences applying for a long-stay visa, eg, for France. This is with an eye on planning the 21/22 season to stay for longer than 90 days, and not working. I appreciate that current restrictions mean there may be few responses for a while yet.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@bobski62, there are several Facebook groups for things like that. Lots of knobs on them but some very useful information to be gleaned too.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Damn. Does that mean I have to join facebook
But seriously, thanks for the tip @Claude B, might ask a friend to take a look! Would you know the titles of the facebook threads/topics?
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I've assumed that since your passport is scanned at French Immigration at Eurotunnel or Ferries, or where you land in the EU, then they have a clear record of your having entered the Schengen area. Then when you return the same way, your passport is scanned again. Thus they have an electronic database of how long every non-EU Passport holder has spent inside the Schengen Zone. If you have used up your 180-day-rolling-window allowance, and try to re-enter, then won't the system pick that up and tell the immigration officer to refuse entry? And if you outstay your residence allowance, then won't they pick that up when, say, you turn up at Eurotunnel Coquelles (Exit) Immigration and your passport is scanned? And either declare you persona non grata for future visits, or haul you off for a nice chat with the Immigration staff?
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You know it makes sense.
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@LaForet, that assumption is based at least on the scan being recorded, and subsequent scans being matched ...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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This discussion isn't really relevant to me but if it transpires that it's easy to get a long stay visa for, say, Belgium then it doesn't look like there would be much of a problem with driving straight from Zeebrugge to any other destination for 6 months or so before returning to UK via Belgium again.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@BoardieK, Hull to Zeebrugge ferry no longer runs... ; I don't think there is an alternative?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@under_a_new_name Doing some research on GOV.UK I came across some interesting statements:
'Border Force uses passport scanners which automatically undertake several fraud and security checks.' and 'the government has not applied to join ... the Schengen borders provisions ... [which] include Schengen visas and Schengen frontier controls' Border Force Home Office FOI Release 31602
If you do some Google searching, then the comments by people claiming to be ex-immigration staff and the like is that the OCR data and chip data on the passport are not just passively recorded, but are checked against national and Schengen databases then and there for major criminal issues, and explicitly for visa checks. Examples quoted include, for instance, that a Brit with a visa to work in Greece when visiting Spain will have that visa data displayed to the Spanish Immigration Officer when they arrive. So I'm assuming that Brits travelling to the Schengen Zone will now have their residence duration details available to both EU and UK Immigration staff and automated gates at the point where the passport is scanned. So, basically, they will be able to calculate how long you've been in the Schengen Zone and whether you're braking any of the rules such as 90-in-180.
IN fact, it strikes me that people are going to want their passports to be scanned on exiting the Schengen Zone, to make sure that the clock stops ticking on their residency record. Otherwise they could be back in the UK with the Schengen clock still ramping-up residency days.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Thu 1-04-21 8:54; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| albob wrote: |
| @BoardieK, Hull to Zeebrugge ferry no longer runs... ; I don't think there is an alternative? |
Hull-Rotterdam I guess
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@LaForet, sure, I'm sure that's what they are doing. But is that then recorded as an entry/exit or at all, and are those then cross linked?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| @LaForet, sure, I'm sure that's what they are doing. But is that then recorded as an entry/exit or at all, and are those then cross linked? |
Yes. And apologies, I added the second bit of my post after you posted your question. My research indicates that when you arrive/depart at a Schengen border point you'll be asked for your passport and that the data on that passport will in most cases be checked centrally then and there. And that one of the checks will be for visa data and your previous movements into/out of the Schengen area. But I admit this is all second-hand: I've not found an official admission that this is so but then I can't be bothered to spend the time researching it further (I imagine there's stuff on the EU websites and specialist sites).
It all seems logical. If it wasn't real-time, then what would be the point of recording the passport at all? Criminals with a warrant out for their arrest would just present their passport and then disappear. Terror suspects would breeze through any Immigration check and similarly go to ground. And the 90-in-180 rule would be effectively unenforceable. As it is, if it's true, then there's no way of evading the 90-in-180 rule. And even if you managed, say, to get into the Schengen Zone without being checked (via some circuitous route), then there'd be the risk on leaving the Zone that you'd be picked up for trying to exit without any record of entry - which might at least demand a plausible explanation and demand for further travel documentation.
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My wife and son travelled to Austria this year and stayed for 8 weeks. They travelled by Eurotunnel, didn't have their passports scanned or stamped at any of the borders, so how does anyone know they have used up any of their 90 days? You no longer have to fill in an API for the Eurotunnel, so they don't know who travelled either.
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@doddsie,
Good point - are the French Police de Frontiere going to be present in Dover every hour of every day? Certainly they haven't in 2020 and previously!
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@albob, amsterdam- Newcastle with dfds
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I'm not lobbying here - all I'm saying is what the technology and process is capable of, if they decide to use it. What French Immigration did in 2020 Transition-that-was-simply-no-change may be no indicator of what they'll do now we've fully left the EU. And what's been happening at Ashford during a low-traffic Pandemic Lockdown, ditto. Seems to me that for flights, since passport data is already forwarded to destination immigration at check in/boarding, and they already do a range of checks while you're in transit, then the 90-in-180 rule will probably be applied because it's already in place and easy to do. Whether they extend it to cross-Channel passengers, who knows? As someone asked on the 'French Lockdown' thread, it'd be interesting to see if actual travellers report any changes re Schengen checks, once things start to open up again.
@doddsie Did they not get their passport scanned by the UK Border Control at Eurotunnel? If they did, the data would have been passed on to the Schengen authorities so there would be no need for the French officials to re-scan it 100m further on. They'd be shown as having entered the Schengen area on that date. Then within Schengen, the whole point is that they don't have to show their passports again. At Eurotunnel Coquelles, the UK Border Force would have scanned their passports again and passed that on, showing they'd left the Schengen area that day.
I wonder to what extent it really matters, anyway? Most people aren't going to spend 12 weeks out of a rolling 25 week window in Europe. And those that do, the rules are clear - surely, you'd need to assume that they can check your residence duration? You couldn't just rely on them not bothering to use the data they collect? It would be very unwise to go out for a season on the assumption that they just won't notice?
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Fri 2-04-21 12:38; edited 3 times in total
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@LaForet, About 15 years ago (!) I had a missing/reported lost passport issue (entirely my fault).
The enormous gaps in what I imagined would be a pan-European, if not global, monitoring, if not surveillance system, ... well, there isn't one, at all.
Apparently, My "lost" passport, reported in the Netherlands might trickle its way through various databases and hit the FCO perhaps 6 months later, after which, it might become invalid after 18 months.
Aye, right, keeping us all safe there then?
And when we consider the US and Mexico ... the US apparently has 500,000 fake passports and IDs entering per year, before you consider "wetbacks"*
*hideous term but illustrative in context.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Has anyone had their passport stamped entering France recently, particularly by train? I'm having to go to France soon and was wondering how the new 90/180 rule was being monitored. Some seasonnaires I know have been in and out after the resorts gave up and sent them all home. Some entering France after Jan 1st said they didn't receive a stamp.
Having read the above I don't want to miss out on a stamp and then get in trouble if I try to return over the summer, due to the French system thinking I've been in the country the whole time despite entering and then leaving shortly afterwards.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@under a new name, as I understand it there is no pan-Schengen 90/180-checking system hence the passport stamps. There is something called SIS2 which is a system for tracking naughty people and stopping them from leaving. In 2022 there is the aim to have a system up and running which will be pan-Schengen and is aimed at tracking the visa-exempt.
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You know it makes sense.
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For info we travelled into Switzerland yesterday from Brides-les-bains crossing near Vallorcine. Didn't even look at our passports, just asked where we were going, how long for and where we'd come from.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@KathE, CH is in Schengen so they are unlikely to ask for passports as they’ll assume someone else has done it further north.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Forgive me if it's already been covered earlier in the thread (had a quick look and didn't see any specific mention) but wondering what the position is if:
a) you get a 'visitor' (tourist) visa for France allowing a 6 month stay
b) You also want to visit other EU countries or even return to France later after the 6 months
My guess is that (b) is covered by the 90/180 rule and you get these days on top of the French visa period. One of the French official sites uses the phrase "90/180 is complementary to the visa".
But some friends maintain that by taking a 6 month visa you have effectively extended your 90 days to 180 days and that's your lot for the year.
Or possibly... that's your lot for France but you can still do 90/180 in other EU countries?
The question pertains to UK passport holders normally resident in the UK.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Thanks @albob, but no, it doesn't help with the question it just confirms what you will need to get a visa. No info there on the applicability of 90/180 to a visa holder.
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@bobski62, I think visas are for that specific country only and the rest of Schengen treats you as a normal 90/180.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
My guess is that (b) is covered by the 90/180 rule and you get these days on top of the French visa period
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I would guess that that's right, in a different country, but that you would not be permitted in France beyond the expiry of the 6 month visa - even if you'd spent several of those months somewhere else.
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@bobski62, you would have 6 months in France from the moment you entered the country. Given there are no checks on travel within Schengen you can go wherever you want though if "something" happens there could be questions. After the 6 months expire, or sooner, you have to leave France officially (which in effect means leaving Schengen and getting your passport stamped to cancel the visa, probably best to exit from France). At that point you can use the "visa free" thing of 90 days in 180, eg. get the tunnel to Folkstone and then go straight back!
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@countryman, some have based future plans and made decisions based on freedom of movement. Not all of us who have done that are wealthy. Some may have to work in the EU, which then limits the leisure time they are allowed to spend there. Some will be close to retirement and want to take themselves off to sunnier climes for the winter, or spend it on the ski slopes.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Thanks @boobleblooble, @pam w, @munich_irish, those are all encouraging opinions. So hard to find an official definitive answer though.
@countryman, yes I do appreciate that these kinds of questions are not going to trouble many folk but the nature of a thread like this on a forum is that it is going to be 'niche'. I'm getting together with a small group of friends who are all 'of a certain age' and exploring 21/22 season options. None of us are fabulously wealthy and we all have different circumstances but we are indeed all lucky to be able to spend longer spells in Europe than an average working-age Brit. We all understand what a privilege this is and especially so over the last year. All we have lost is a season's skiing - an insignificance compared to the losses of so many others.
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| munich_irish wrote: |
| @bobski62, you would have 6 months in France from the moment you entered the country. Given there are no checks on travel within Schengen you can go wherever you want though if "something" happens there could be questions. After the 6 months expire, or sooner, you have to leave France officially (which in effect means leaving Schengen and getting your passport stamped to cancel the visa, probably best to exit from France). At that point you can use the "visa free" thing of 90 days in 180, eg. get the tunnel to Folkstone and then go straight back! |
This sounds like an interesting idea. I'm going to be following this closely as I'm hoping loopholes will appear. Like many people, I can work from whereever, and currently we have a motorhome, so I had hoped to spend certainly more than 90 days in the EU at some point going from country to country once kids have gone to uni. Hoping there will be a way round it.
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