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Is Season 2021/22 going to happen for the British or for Anyone Else

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Was going to leave it till later in the year to book...no chance.!!..we wanted 3 double rooms for january, checjed on it and its booked up already (1 room left)..so have booked to go to Whistler by ourselves and hopefully meet some friends there..got an apartment for 460 quid for 11 nights in whistler..my at 2000+
With that in mind ,,my lads trip for Feb. we've booked last week.. again we have not got the rooms we'd want, we have two doubles and a triple room, so now having to pay underuseage fees ..might not be a lot left later in the year, but if it all gets cancelled again then we'll get our money back..again.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Summer holidays looking a lot less likely as the European vaccination Charlie-Foxtrot continues. Unless they seriously catch up I can't see anyone being able to holiday in the first half of the summer season at least. Wasn't planning abroad this summer and probably wouldn't go now even if I can. Will happily trade that for freedom at home. Will I feel the same about next winter? Right now maybe...
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Charlie Foxtrot @robboj, Laughing
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As I just posted elsewhere:
Quote:
Between March and June, the EU will deliver between 300 and 350 million vaccine doses to the member states. The internal market commissioner announced a steadily growing volume of deliveries from 60 million doses in March to 100 million in April and 120 million in May. Coronavirus vaccine is now manufactured in 55 plants in Europe. "The vaccines are coming, they will be there," said the Frenchman.


The delivery schedule was always 3 months behind the UK, so it's not surprising really. When the deliveries arrive, the rollout will pick up speed.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Now all they have to do is convince the vaccine sceptics to take it
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Quote:

Now all they have to do is convince the vaccine sceptics to take it

@brianatab, Isn't that a France and Holland issue, I think Germany and Austrian folks are looking for it?
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Markymark29 wrote:
Quote:

Now all they have to do is convince the vaccine sceptics to take it

@brianatab, Isn't that a France and Holland issue, I think Germany and Austrian folks are looking for it?

Yep. I think this is being played up now to some degree. Early polls on acceptance were very poor, but I believe actual take up is far better. As an example, in the Schwaz district nearby (where Mayrhofen is) there was 80% take up during last week's vaccine drive, and any spares were distributed around neighbouring districts. After the EMA decision last week on AZ, the ruling was widely accepted in a “someone has had a good look at this issue, and they think it's okay” kind of way. An investigation within Austria is still ongoing, but that only affects one batch not the whole programme. Some countries (Hungary, Slovenia?) have even brought in the non-EMA approved Sputnik V vaccine, because they are so keen to get their rollouts moving. Other countries are aware that they can't reasonably do that without EMA approval though, but I think that's a good thing.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@Scarlet, I think once sceptics realise they can't travel or go to events the take up will be greater. Quantas are setting a proof of vaccine as a requirement for flying, i'd be surprised if the likes of BA, Emirates, Lufthansa and Swiss don't follow in near future (may have even done so already?).
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@Markymark29, in Austria, you can't do anything fun without a 48h negative test. If you can avoid having to organise getting your brain poked several times a week by getting a jab, I think most people will go for it!
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
@Scarlet, Laughing
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Markymark29 wrote:
@Scarlet, I think once sceptics realise they can't travel or go to events the take up will be greater. Quantas are setting a proof of vaccine as a requirement for flying, i'd be surprised if the likes of BA, Emirates, Lufthansa and Swiss don't follow in near future (may have even done so already?).

I'm not sure many airlines will make proof of vaccination compulsory. Proof of negative test, perhaps
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@iainm, they'll follow customer demand - if research tells them people would be happier flying if they only allow vaccinated people then they'll do that. Or Airlines will have it as their USP that they do (or don't) require proof.

Gut feel is that all the big carriers will want to see proof.
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
If you need a test before flying back to the UK, that would be a serious potential Problem for families. Who could take the risk of another two weeks isolating overseas if one of the unvaccinated kids tests positive 48 hours before returning to the UK?
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Quote:

early polls on acceptance were very poor, but I believe actual take up is far better.

Quote:

I think once sceptics realise they can't travel or go to events the take up will be greater.

I think this is one of the classic case of poll not reflecting actual.

When people are asked before the vaccines are actually available, they're likely to express their doubt and seem more hesitant. Don't we all have doubts about a lot of things we ended up doing anyway?

So, once the opportunity becomes available for real, a lot of the background hesitation will simply disappear.

I knew several people who expressed vaccine hesitation earlier had now taken the jab.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
I don't have any problem with carriers insisting on vaccine.

In the report I read, the Boss of Quantas said that his main priority was the health of his staff, many of whome are well down the vaccine list due to age. Can't argue with that logic.

Inho, anybody who can have a vaccine, but refuses it should not be allowed to leave their Country of residence. Even if they could, No Country should admit them without quarantine. That should be the norm until the cast majority of the Worlds population has had the chance to be protected.

Freedom of movement in the EU would make this difficult to implement, but maybe Individual Govts might do something.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I suspect it's simply a case of more and more information becoming available about how effective vaccines are, and how slight any potential risks are, compared to the benefits.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I think people will come under increasing social pressure to be vaccinated - and talk about "vaccine passports" strengthen this.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
On the subject of Summer holidays, the sight of tens of thousands of Germans rushing to Mallorca this week, just as Germany announced more restrictions with a third wave already confirmed beggars belief.

I can't understand how the Spanish authorities have allowed it. It will only take a couple of dozen cases amongst those tourists to cause another wave, which could shut down those Islands for the entire Summer season.

I fully sympathise with all those in the German/Austrian tourist industry who are not allowed to accept guests, but have to witness this idiocy.
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@brianatab, My thoughts exactly. A genuine WTF moment when I read that yesterday.
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".....anybody who refuses it should not be allowed to leave their country of residence..... individual governments might do something".
In the UK, the various govts have consistently refused to allow any rule relaxation to individuals on the basis of vaccination or negative testing (or antibodies from previous infection). This applies to quarantine etc but also to internal restrictions.
You want to drive from Cardiff to rural Wales to walk on the hills? It's not allowed. You can expect to be pulled over by the police, turned round and fined. It doesnt matter if you've had 2 shots of the vaccine and a negative test. Rules is rules.
I gather that exempting some people but not others might be considered discriminatory. So in the interests of fairness, there should be equal misery. The rule has to apply to everyone until it is abolished for everyone. ( as eventually it might be.....).
I'm not saying I think like that, but a lot of people do.
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@peerless ploughman, I think it's politically expedient and medically sensible.

The cost of this pandemic has been born disproportionately by the young (under 40) who have seen disproportionate job losses, will be paying back the £400bn bill long after the beneficiaries have moved onto the next world, and yet weren't themselves particularly at risk.

Furthermore, as can be seen in hospital admission data, the vast majority of the reduction in hospital admissions has come from lockdown. The vaccines (particularly in single-shot mode) are not fully effective; a combination of vaccines and non-pharmaceutical interventions is much more powerful than either alone.

The idea that we've asked for so much sacrifice from the younger generation, for the older people to then enjoy themselves and also contribute to a third wave seems deeply inequitable.
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@snowdave, good point, while there was a benefit in terms of disease severity in vaccinating the oldest (or otherwise vulnerable) first it would be inequitable for those who have suffered in non-medical ways to be disadvantaged further. Government's priority should be to get everyone vaccinated rather than find ways for those done first to gain benefit.

In practice of course it isn't quite as simple, any vaccination passport for travel means common agreement between countries which will not always be on the preferred timescale of every country. So there is an element of diplomacy as well (not that that is our own government's forte).
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@peerless_ploughman @snowdave I have to point out that probably the only older person lobbying for preferential travel treatment is the PM's father. I'd just like to make it clear that there's no one I know in my own elderly circle who is (a) unappreciative of the sacrifices being made by the younger generation and (b) unhappy to share the same constraints on travel until everyone is fully-vaccinated. Yes, there's a boom in demand for Saga cruises - but there's a boom in bookings by younger families for summer holidays as well. I'm not sure what I see in the media about both is entirely representative of the population at large. If the Government rescinded the 'Stanley Johnson Clause' I'd consider it entirely reasonable. And anyway, we're only talking about 3 months or so until everyone's in the same boat (literally as well as metaphorically ...).
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I take snowdave's point about the young having suffered to protect the old and therefore no one wants to do anything which could be presented as penalising the young further.
However, it is not just the old who have had early vaccine, it's also many health workers for example. Also, more young people than old would be in the antibodies category ( had covid & recovered). And people of any ages can be tested negative.
None of these categories have been exempted from restriction imposed by UK (let alone devolved) authorities. Not even those local travel restrictions which have only the remotest connection with disease transmission eg driving to a windy mountain for a hill walk.
(Rationale: stop people doing anything inessential which involves them leaving the house. To make it easier to enforce, don't bother trying to distinguish further. And btw, close off inessential goods aisles in supermarkets, for fairness /equal misery. )
Trying to get back to thread title: these tendencies towards imposing 'fairness' are not a good omen for ski travel in the 21/22 season, at least as far as brits are concerned.
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Quote:

And anyway, we're only talking about 3 months or so until everyone's in the same boat (literally as well as metaphorically ...).


I think it's going to be more like September before everyone has had two jabs plus three weeks. You also probably want any destination country to have mostly completed their vaccine program too. However if you don't start planing for a vaccine passport now, come the autumn when you could roll it out and it is likely necessary, it will still be some time away before the scheme is ready because you have done nothing.

The answer is to announce that there will be a scheme now, but that it will take time to get it up and running and roll it out in the autumn. Or you are honest and simply say that till the young who are going to bear the brunt of the economic burden of the pandemic can participate then nobody can.
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The world cannot afford to wait for vaccine fairness. If the young have to wait longer then that's unfortunate but economies need to see money moving again and if the typically wealthier cohorts are free to spend it then that has to happen. Yes the young have borne the brunt of disruption to their busier social lives but only really the the infirm and mainly housebound elderly that have seen no impact in that respect and nothing is really going to change for them in terms of pubs, restaurants and holidays.

@peerless ploughman, I agree. If we bring 'fairness' into it where does it end? Ski holidays themselves being banned because they are the preserve of the comfortable middle class?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@jabuzzard, Agreed. Plus, decisions should be made quickly regarding exemption certificates for those who can't have the vaccine, for whatever reason. To avoid undue pressure on GP's, this will need to be a clinical decision, probably by the consultant under strict guidelines.

It should be fairly straightforward to set up a cheap, or even free system of testing for these people should they wish to travel.

This should include pregnant women, although this should only be necessary in the first year. (although they ought to seriously consider the possible consequences of rates in the intended countries of travel.)

No reason why it can't be trialed at a few venues during the summer to iron out any problems. If done by an app, younger people could volunteer to download and test it well in advance, and get used to it. Lets face it, we will be stuck with some system or other for the next few years at least. It's in everybody's interest.
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@robboj, then major moral difference between the impact on lockdowns for the young v the old, is that the elderly did it for their own self preservation. The young did it on behalf of others.
The young are owed a hell of a lot for what they have put up with over the last year. Letting the elderly let rip economically and socially would be a huge kick in the teeth, and lead to a complete breakdown in compliance.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Just had a thought re vaccine and pregnancy.

There will be thousands of women who get, or discover they are, pregnant between the first and second vaccines.

Anybody heard anything about how this will affect the 2 doses?
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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robboj wrote:
The world cannot afford to wait for vaccine fairness. If the young have to wait longer then that's unfortunate but economies need to see money moving again and if the typically wealthier cohorts are free to spend it then that has to happen. Yes the young have borne the brunt of disruption to their busier social lives but only really the the infirm and mainly housebound elderly that have seen no impact in that respect and nothing is really going to change for them in terms of pubs, restaurants and holidays.


The young are bearing the economic burden. Besides it would be fool hardy to allow travel to Europe till they have sorted their vaccination program out and got all the adults done, and so that makes it something of a moot point. To great a risk of bringing new variants back.

Oh and for the avoidance of doubt I get my first jab tomorrow, and I still don't think a vaccine passport before the autumn is right. This is one of the exceedingly rare times I am in complete agreement with de Pfeffel who has said today no vaccine passports till everyone has been offered a jab.
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@snowhound, I don't disagree with that but compounding the errors by starving struggling businesses of income for longer than necessary is madness. For every leisure type business that goes under then thats more jobs that young people can't get. Especially students looking for part time/casual work.

Nobody volunteered for lockdown. No-one would have done it on anyones behalf, we all did it because we were told to and that instruction was and is enforced in law.

If we agree to delay based on fairness we'll make the situation worse, not better, for everyone.

Holiday companies and indeed countries will lose the entire summer and as @peerless ploughman said it could affect next winter.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
brianatab wrote:
Just had a thought re vaccine and pregnancy.

There will be thousands of women who get, or discover they are, pregnant between the first and second vaccines.

Anybody heard anything about how this will affect the 2 doses?


the JCVI a couple of weeks ago has updated its advice to recommend you may be able to have the vaccine if you're pregnant and

    ∙ at high risk of getting coronavirus because of where you work
    ∙ have a health condition that means you're at high risk of serious complications of coronavirus

In research just published today in the American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology the Pfizer/BioNTech and Moderna Covid-19 vaccines are effective in pregnant and lactating women, who can pass protective antibodies to newborns. Researchers at Massachusetts General Hospital, Brigham and Women's Hospital and the Ragon Institute of MGH, MIT and Harvard looked at 131 women who received either the Pfizer/BioNTech or Moderna Covid-19 vaccine. Among the participants, 84 were pregnant, 31 were lactating and 16 were not pregnant. Samples were collected between December 17, 2020 and March 2, 2021.

At the moment few women of child bearing age are eligible for the vaccine anyway. I suspect that by August they will have decided at least one of the vaccines has proven safe for pregnant women and it should be easy enough to ensure they get that jab. However in general there is little to no known issue with vaccines and pregnancy and I would expect them all to be proved safe in due course.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@brianatab, there was an item somewhere saying some of the clinical trial participants ended up getting pregnant. I don't think there were any problems observed, but obviously those were small numbers in a trial not planned to study that effect.
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@j b, Blimmin hell. I thought a blood clot was a bad side effect, but getting pregnant is pretty serious Very Happy Very Happy
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@MorningGory, if it was cause and effect we can expect octagenarian mothers to feature in the news come September ...

Or perhaps not.
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[quote="jabuzzard"]
robboj wrote:
The world cannot afford to wait for vaccine fairness. If the young have to wait longer then that's unfortunate but economies need to see money moving again and if the typically wealthier cohorts are free to spend it then that has to happen. Yes the young have borne the brunt of disruption to their busier social lives but only really the the infirm and mainly housebound elderly that have seen no impact in that respect and nothing is really going to change for them in terms of pubs, restaurants and holidays.


I don't think it's fair to assume that "the young have borne the brunt of disruption to their busier social lives." I reckon that the majority of active (older) Snowheads will have suffered more social disruption than the younger crowd - particularly those with season passes, who ski a lot. You can't get a much busier social life than daily skiing wink Toofy Grin
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MorningGory wrote:
@j b, Blimmin hell. I thought a blood clot was a bad side effect, but getting pregnant is pretty serious Very Happy Very Happy


Fun facts for the day. The risk of blood clots from being pregnant are way higher than from any vaccine. Blood clots from the contraceptive pill (excepting progestogen-only ones) are also way higher than from any vaccine as well.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
jabuzzard wrote:
MorningGory wrote:
@j b, Blimmin hell. I thought a blood clot was a bad side effect, but getting pregnant is pretty serious Very Happy Very Happy


Fun facts for the day. The risk of blood clots from being pregnant are way higher than from any vaccine. Blood clots from the contraceptive pill (excepting progestogen-only ones) are also way higher than from any vaccine as well.

If you report it as “facts”, the least you need to do is to provide your source...
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It's well known about the pill @abc, hopefully this is of interest:
https://www.openaccessgovernment.org/risk-of-blood-clots/106257/
but because it's been in use for years by women it's just one on a list of side effects.
Maybe not in the US but the comparison was extensively reported in the UK when the blood clot story first broke.
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@Skimum1, thanks.

You’re right, it’s not been much report of blood clot in the US
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