 Poster: A snowHead
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Just how different are the finishing times between the men's and women's . . . is it time to eliminate sexism in ski competition?
When we stop using ideals of 'beauty' to define a woman's sporting abilities and as women have embraced competition their body morphology has changed to a more natural human form rather than the weirdness that has so often been inflicted on them by men's warped imagination.
I'd like to think that gravity sports like skiing should be the first to embrace full equality in prowess.
Is my horse too high? 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Masque, I have no idea what you’re talking about however, seeing as you mentioned horses, equestrian sports are among the very few in which men & women compete on equal terms.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Masque, The times are not even close. Having mixed races is not a good idea.
You could compare the times for the Downhill at the last GBR National Championships, the same course was used for both M and W. The female winner would be 34th in the male race.
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@Gordyjh, just questioning how far the difference between men's and women's performance figures and if they should be separate events . . . Especially at junior level to develop.
I firmly believe that competitive women skiers are at least as good as their male counterpartso if placed in competition together. There is inherent sexism in most sports . . . Ever wonder why a camera is often placed behind a female skier at the start gate and off to the front in a male race?
@rjs, is that not an incentive to better an individuals performance? It would be easy to segregate finish times into sex based categories but why on earth is it needed to segregate the race itself? There are no safety issues beyond the inherent ones to both and the runs are individual time trials.
Or do you think that women beating men is some sort of emasqulation?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Masque, you are over thinking it
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@holidayloverxx, why am I? Competition within a limited peer group is restrictive both physically and mentally. There is absolutely no practical reason for men's and women's ski competition to be segregated other than the embarrassment of men.
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@Masque, How much time have you spent race coaching girls ?
You could go back and read the thread on Lindsay Vonn wanting to race against men.
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@rjs, my point is, and you reinforce it yourself by just using one individual amongst a thousand(s) who herself has competed solely within one peer group and as you say "race against men" . . . FFS! YOU PRAT! Every race on skis Is is a race against time and the hill. The sex of the competitor is immaterial and only limited by the paucity of mind that that thinks and believes that one sex is weaker and less able than the other. Are you one of those minds?
| holidayloverxx wrote: |
@Masque, seriously..I can't begin to answer. Its late here. 8m sure others will pop up
As for your comment about the camera angles...Really??? |
@holidayloverxx, yes really, I may be going back a decade, but a very good. ... drunk friend, coms tech, let me know it was standard practice for the women's races and going by the YouTube theads, hasn't changed much in the last 10 years
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Masque, There is a lot of general information in the other thread, it isn't specific to LV.
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@Masque, to answer the question about camera angles....no never noticed that. I see shots from inside the start hut and outside.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@rjs, and I still say . . . Why? . . . Exactly why is there any need to have separate men's and women's ski races . . . Come on . . . Give us one reason . . . ?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@holidayloverxx, there may be a sorta reason fer yer insouciance about camera positioning. . . step back and have a think fer a mo.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Sun 14-02-21 23:50; edited 1 time in total
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@Matrski, my apologies. . . Your can of worms had a hole in it
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You know it makes sense.
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Well the thread has definitely drifted and it looks like some punches are being thrown
@Masque, While I agree that ski racing is "skier vs the clock" and that is no need to segregate the male and the females from racing the same course, and yes there would likely be some further development of the skiers - I think you would very quickly find the females would be off the podiums and it is for that very reason separate events are held. What is going to be the motivation of going to race when you know you aren't going to win and not going to get a title, prize money, sponsorship will be limited as the females wouldn't be on the podium or in the leaders seat for the product placement.
Even Lindsey Vonn has admitted that she didn't even expect to beat the men...
| Quote: |
| Everyone has their own goals and ambitions. I wanted to race against the men because I wanted to be a better ski racer and I didn’t necessarily think I would beat everybody - far from that - I just wanted the experience, to learn from them. Everyone has their own motivations and ambitions, and I think my ambitions were different from most. I hope someone tries to do it. Unfortunately, I didn’t have a lot of support from the FIS, but I had a lot of support from a lot of the male counterparts and a lot of the media. I think there’s still a long way to go if someone wants to see that through. |
Maybe like the alpine rock festival - we will see an open race where both sexes compete - there is the mixed team parallel slalom.
@rjs, provided a great data point from the GBR nationals - something likely recreated across the national teams
Also Serena Williams - the Vonn equivalent of the tennis world would be another great example why the Women and Men play separate tournaments...
| Quote: |
| Another event dubbed a "Battle of the Sexes" took place during the 1998 Australian Open between Karsten Braasch and the Williams sisters. Venus and Serena Williams had claimed that they could beat any male player ranked outside the world's top 200, so Braasch, then ranked 203rd, challenged them both. Braasch was described by one journalist as "a man whose training regime centered around a pack of cigarettes and more than a couple of bottles of ice cold lager". The matches took place on court number 12 in Melbourne Park, after Braasch had finished a round of golf and two shandies. He first took on Serena and after leading 5–0, beat her 6–1. Venus then walked on court and again Braasch was victorious, this time winning 6–2. Braasch said afterwards, "500 and above, no chance". He added that he had played like someone ranked 600th in order to keep the game "fun" and that the big difference was that men can chase down shots much easier and put spin on the ball that female players can't handle. The Williams sisters adjusted their claim to beating men outside the top 350. |
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Masque wrote: |
| @rjs, my point is, and you reinforce it yourself by just using one individual amongst a thousand(s) who herself has competed solely within one peer group and as you say "race against men" . . . FFS! YOU PRAT! Every race on skis Is is a race against time and the hill. The sex of the competitor is immaterial.... |
I’m in favour of mixed competition in sports where gender genuinely makes no difference but there aren’t many AFAIK so you have mixed teams which works quite well.
But, following your logic, why not have men & women competing together in running races? 20 men and 20 women start a 5000m race together, it would be remarkable if the 20th man didn’t finish 2 minutes ahead of the first woman. They are all running on the same track at the same time but how does that help anyone?
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Poster: A snowHead
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@extremerob, My point is that if you only ski against your peers, that limits your development to within your peer group. Social attitudes are changing rapidly as are (well western) attitudes towards female beauty. There are many men who think the plastic аrsеd Kardashians are ultimate femininity when they are just money pits for men's stupidity. All the while the world keeps revolving and women are ignoring the limitations of male attitudes and exploring their potential both mental and physical . . . and not to put a finer point on it . . . They are kinda good at it.
There is no reason beyond hurt pride to have co-ed ski racing and nothing easier to rank finishing by both overall and or by sex.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Masque wrote: |
| Exactly why is there any need to have separate men's and women's ski races ? |
Ski racing is a power sport, even if you compare men and women of similar size the man will be stronger. Do you think that Lara Gut-Behrami or Tessa Worley would be a foot taller if they
had skied in mixed races ?
Read the other thread, there is a lot of information from primoz about differences in WC level races.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Red Leon, because that's not a race governed by gravity and the coefficient of friction.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@rjs, you see strength as some sort of preference above skill? You really need to take another look at sports science . . . shіt! This was known back in the 70's 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Masque, I'm an internationally qualified race coach, how about you ?
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@rjs, I'm just a numpty . . . But I don't have a vested interest in the status quo. How about you?
Edit . . . What's your qualification got to do with sexism in ski racing beyond enforcement of the status quo? FFS are you that dense? 
Edit 2, Step back and have a look at what you are supporting.
Edit 3, Ummmm, sorry to point out . . . But if you're going to throw your professional dick into the ring you better have the balls to support its flaccidity. It doesn't matter how good you think you are unless you have a cogent argument in response to a post. So tell me just why, in clear factual detail why I'm full of shіt?
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@rjs, knock, knock . . . You still here?
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@rjs, still waiting. . .
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Masque wrote: |
| @holidayloverxx, there may be a sorta reason fer yer insouciance about camera positioning. . . step back and have a think fer a mo. |
I genuinely have no idea what you mean.
The majority of your posts on this thread are just plain rude and argumentative...as they often are. Why do you do it? You are a better man than that.
I'm out
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Masque, I don't think it is that simple - look at the quality of the race track - can you imagine if we had 60+ racers (top males and females) run down a track - not exactly sure what that would show us - or even trying to run a slalom run that way?
I get the development bit - you are overlooking one vital piece though - a lot of the girls do train alongside the men - they just race different tracks, the balance of being ranked and skiing later on worse snow may actually stem development at a certain point.
While we have some data on the M vs F debate - the issue is it is not taken from racing on the same tracks. As @Red Leon, pointed out the women were achieving 20km/h more on their DHs than the men and that is a function of the tofane piste layout in comparison to the vertigine
Anyway the data is here - https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-if-men-and-women-skied-against-each-other-in-the-olympics/
It would be interesting to see a DH or SG where we had 40 athletes - top 20 M and F race against each other in an M - F alternating format - it would need to be a piste that wasn't on the WC circuit to make fair comparisons - a sort of exhibition race.
Back to the drift and punch bit...
https://skiracing.com/cut-and-pitch-bode-miller-describes-his-giant-slalom-technique/
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Masque wrote: |
| @rjs, you see strength as some sort of preference above skill? You really need to take another look at sports science . . . shіt! This was known back in the 70's |
I think you’ve probably answered your own question with this. DH skiing is a combination of power AND skill.
There’s probably nothing to pick between the skill level of top flight men and women skiers. They probably on a par.
But.....
The men (or at least those that choose to compete professionally in a power sport like DH, rugby, etc) simply always will have the upper hand regarding power. It might be possible for some of the women to spend all their time in the gym to pack on muscle mass beyond their natural level, but you would likely be sacrificing skill for power.
It would definitely be interesting to see how men and women complete against each other over a series of different courses though.
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During yesterday's DH the commentator mentioned that it may suit the lighter skier so that sort of course would be interesting to see if the Women running it had a similar advantage.
Although it seemed to suit the first through more... The corner after the first jump (the jump that the GS flew over) seemed to be a deciding factor, time and time again competitors dropped below 100 km/h and ended up losing a second to the winner in one split....
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Masque wrote: |
| I cannot see any fundamental reason why ski racing has a need to segregate the sexes other than to hide the embarrassment of the lower male runners in the field. |
I really do not believe that is the issue why it is segregated...look at what the athletes are saying, you think they want to race the same course and then have separate podiums... that's like giving all kids a participation medal and not teaching them about competition.. Vonn wanted to race men for the media attention and the stir it caused, not because she seriously wanted to end FIS practice of separate male and female races - that is not exactly sexist now is it. What is sexist for example is not allowing females to compete in a sport that men are at the olympics or world championship levels - ski jumping was a great example of this.
| Quote: |
Steven Nyman, U.S. Ski Team:
“I think Lindsey’s desire to race Lake Louise against the men would be fantastic. I think seeing how she stacks up would be very interesting … She was training with us in Portillo (in Chile last summer) and she was very fast. I had a broken hand, so she didn’t have the opportunity to try to beat me. A lot of the top guys, they weren’t beat, but the young guys got beat a couple times. She has speed. I’ve said it from the beginning, I think she could maybe break into the top 30. I know if she’s there, guys will go hard and guys will not want to be beat. It’s going to step up the game … I think it’d bring a lot of attention. In ski racing right now, there is no bigger personality. Why not capitalize on it? She’s good at creating buzz, good at creating stories and drama. This is part of that. Let’s milk it. Let’s see what it brings. What is there to lose?” |
| Quote: |
Lara Gut, Switzerland:
“I think this is her decision, her plan, and I have nothing to do with that. I have no opinion. I’m going to ski my women’s races and try to get inspired (watching) when the men are racing. I have been training with the men so many times. I don’t want to race against them. It’s enough for me to train with them.” |
| Quote: |
Viktoria Rebensburg, Germany:
“The best chances for her, for sure, would be (at Lake Louise) because she is always fast here. I think this would be the only place where she might have a chance. But when it is tougher conditions, like Kitzbuehel (in Austria), then for sure it’s not working … Everyone would watch it I guess, because it’s never happened before.” |
| Quote: |
Cornelia Huetter, Austria:
“I would be interested, but I think men should race against men and girls against girls. We have differences from the body and the weight and the skis. There’s a lot different. I think it’s good that girls are racing against girls.” |
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Poster: A snowHead
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I see no reason for measurable differences in the skill levels of professional male & female athletes, whether they are driving racing cars or skiing.
I’ve wondered for years why there haven’t been more successful women jockeys - after all, there’s clearly an advantage to being light so women should have a head start. The same applies to motorsport but I guess there are other factors at play such as opportunity and the macho element.
When it comes to skiing, where gravity is the only motive force (technically wrong but you know what I mean!), a 100kg man is always going to reach the bottom of the hill before a 70kg woman.
As we don’t see 100kg women racing downhill (and it’s not as if there are no 100kg women!), I presume those who have tried have been unable to build the strength required to control the forces involved. And that’s the big advantage the men have.
My guess is that in a mixed race of elite skiers on the same track, all the women will always be slower than all the men - and I don’t believe it’s in any way sexist to say that.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Do racers ever do practise runs with weighted vests. I wonder if any weight is a help or only muscle... Apart from speed skiing I assume the extra weight wouldn't help but it would be interesting to see. I suppose if it is and advantage it will be in the rules (maximum weight for clothing) otherwise they would push it to the extreme...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| pieman666 wrote: |
| Do racers ever do practise runs with weighted vests. I wonder if any weight is a help or only muscle... Apart from speed skiing I assume the extra weight wouldn't help but it would be interesting to see. I suppose if it is and advantage it will be in the rules (maximum weight for clothing) otherwise they would push it to the extreme... |
I’m guessing here, but that would strike me as dangerous. If you’ve got extra weight, but not the muscle mass to to control it, that might be an issue
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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true but if it made you faster they would do it...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| pieman666 wrote: |
| Do racers ever do practise runs with weighted vests. I wonder if any weight is a help or only muscle... Apart from speed skiing I assume the extra weight wouldn't help but it would be interesting to see. I suppose if it is and advantage it will be in the rules (maximum weight for clothing) otherwise they would push it to the extreme... |
Good point. I was assuming the rules preclude racers - to take an extreme example - wearing a backpack full of bricks
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@extremerob, @Red Leon, as you both point out, women have a different morphology than males. But have you noticed 'that' is changing? Joyfully many women are ignoring the male ideal of the plastic tit n аrsеd Kardashian and growing into a natural female form that is just as powerful as the male. Less mass may well equate to quicker response, better control and faster times?
There is also the 'mentality' aspect of this conversation. Just how much performance is governed by lowered expectation?
Right at this moment we would not expect many mixed podiums, though I would gamble on some. However, having two podiums over the same course at the same time is obviously achievable and over time would become redundant.
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@Red Leon, looking at your post about mass and gravity we also have to include friction, but even then, a lardass like me  is probably going to get to the bottom fastest on a straight downhill However as GS or a Super G is another issue as is Slalom.
As for women in male dominated sports, you seem to forget that society as we know it only allowed women to vote 100 years ago and even then in very controlled circumstances.
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Putting aside morphology and arguments over physical capabilities or mentality, at present we have two races instead of one. Two world champions, more sponsorship, more television coverage, a greater number of courses and resorts hosting races, more competitors, more prize money. What's not to like about any of that? 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Masque, on the basis we accept that males and females have different morphology then we accept it is not a comparable playing field - your argument about a plastic titted kardashian I am sorry does not stack - many professional athletes do not think about an ideal body shape, but rather the most functional body shape for their sport - have you seen the female skiers in a bikini?
There is going to be a limit to what that morphology can do - think of Wengen or Kitzbhuel - that extra muscle mass is going to help - the female and male body by design, by evolution is different from one another and that is not going to change just because men and female race the same events.
I agree females will benefit from training with men, and they do, but there is a physical limit to what their bodes can do - maybe that is why they have separate race courses - in order to test the limit of the skier.
You are pushing an agenda that it is sexist and women would actually benefit, yet the athletes themselves aren't pushing for it or believe it will produce the results you claim - so maybe we should listen to the experts?
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FAQ
and seriously? Have you never noticed that broadcast cameras for women's races were always started behind the competitor? It's becoming less common but still . . . 