 Poster: A snowHead
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If you don't want the vaccination, don't have it.
If you have the vaccination, but don't want a vaccination certificate, don't get the certificate.
If a country demands vaccination & proof for entry, don't whinge if you fall into one of the above & they won't let you in.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I remember getting a certificate for Yellow Fever vaccination before going to Kenya on honeymoon, what’s the problem, conspiracy theorists?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
So a bit like the global pandemic that would have been considered unthinkable in the western world in 2019?
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Extraordinary situations require extraordinary measures. It depends on how this is treated in the long run - apart from a few nutters, I think everyone understands at some level (grudgingly or not) that (some) these measures are sadly necessary. But the distrust, divide and hate it sows between people is something that needs to be addressed after as well (with this being an entirely different topic)
Should people that endanger others allowed to roam freely? No, that's also why we have driver's licenses and so on.
Should it be a choice rather than a mandate? Yeah, you can't force people to put something in their body for society's good. What's next in the name of "good"? 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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>Against this, there's also a significant proportion of citizens who have an aversion to any digital solution,
Possibly because of the rubbish on anti social media?? Simple solution, just stay at home head in sand!!
Just had a Covid test in Lauterbrunnen. All done by smartphone and there didn't seem to be a process for those without one. And I forgot to ask. Might go back and check.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@blind_raven, maybe as you say, extraordinary times call for extraordinary measures, or maybe it is extraordinary times are used to justify extraordinary measures. Who however defines what is extraordinary and determines what are proportionate responses to the threat? Usually the government.
We think we live in democracy and that the ballot box and the judiciary provide checks and balances to help ensure that the response is legal and appropriate, but is that really true? Reading the various Brexit threads, a prevalent argument seems to be that clever messaging (and/or perhaps outright lies) were used to subvert the "will of the people". If you believe that, then probably you believe the checks and balances failed?
Another contemporary example might be the Gulf War & WMD, and indeed most Western interventions in the Middle East. Did the stated risk of the WMD create an extraordinary time, justifying what followed afterwards?
Interesting (abridged) quote to ponder:
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| ... it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship..... voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country. |
The point I am making is that the freedoms and liberties we enjoy, or have enjoyed in the past, are very easy to abrogate, but very difficult to restore. That alone should at least make people question any proposed erosion of their rights.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| ulmerhutte wrote: |
... it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship..... voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country. |
Didn’t work for Trump did it, although I give you he got close. Doesn’t seem to be working for Boris either. Eventually the people open their eyes and can see the mess.
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@ulmerhutte, Re Digital Vaccination Certificates - your concerns are entirely valid and certainly need to be debated openly. My response is that the liberty boat sailed 15-20 years ago. I have worked for the security services - governments can get hold of whatever information they want, on as many people as they want, as quickly as they want. It's well-known that a tabloid can get hold of pretty much anyone's medical records for an average £15-£20K. I suspect we'll see an intense public debate with polarised factions like the CRG or the BMA making compromise impossible, ending-up with a government U-turn at the last minute because international travel demands a solution. And then the worst of both worlds: a last-minute hack that misses the opportunity to provide really useful additional services, but breaks all the fundamental rules for citizen security, probably with a back door for the CIA if it's US-developed, or various security flaws ready for exploitation by the various Chinese/Russian cyber warfare groups, if it's home-grown.
Most UK GP practices use the EMIS software package. I'll take a bet that once an international vaccination standard emerges, EMIS will produce a capability to transfer an inoculation certificate using one or two of the main standards, and then various app developers will emerge as the de facto app for international travellers. All this will happen completely outside a raging debate between all the various interest groups and lobbies. Basically, as we've seen before, concerns over security, confidentiality and citizens rights will be loud, but irrelevant against the march of the tech industry.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Tue 19-01-21 10:57; edited 2 times in total
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| Quote: |
@blind_raven, maybe as you say, extraordinary times call for extraordinary measures, or maybe it is extraordinary times are used to justify extraordinary measures. Who however defines what is extraordinary and determines what are proportionate responses to the threat? Usually the government.
[...]
The point I am making is that the freedoms and liberties we enjoy, or have enjoyed in the past, are very easy to abrogate, but very difficult to restore. That alone should at least make people question any proposed erosion of their rights.
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@ulmerhutte Oh, I wholeheartedly agree with what you are saying here. There's that old saying with Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the other ones.
We as people are not reliable in choosing a representational (or otherwise...) form of government that does not get corrupted by interests because we ourselves are corrupted by different interests. We are not governed by the purity of values, and even in that case, there is no guarantee that my value is "as good" as yours. Whatever that means.
When I say it was necessary I say it from an "average idiot" that should not be allowed to choose much anyway because they lack critical thinking - not because they're not smart enough, but because they just refuse/don't know how to employ it. Sadly, most of the fabric of society is built to prevent idiocy from becoming a big problem, and absolutely does not cater to the intelligent. A few examples:
- We are giving obese people the jab, in spite of the fact that in most cases (not all, ofc), they are the way they are out of their own doing - does it make sense for the people that take most care of themselves to have to wait the longest? No, but it makes sense from a fabric of society point of view, that we want to lift everyone with us, not leave them behind, and be elitist about our choices.
- The more you earn, as an earnest and educated citizen, the more goes to taxes - the asterisk here, before I get something thrown at me, is that this argument isn't meant for generational wealth being passed on, cronyism or whatever else. It's literally meant as "you earn more because you're good, here's your new tax bracket". The reason why it's more expensive to be "single" (or marked as single) in most countries is because there's an incentive to have children, not a tax on being single. But it's not always perceived as such.
and so on.
But all of these, are the price we pay for a civilized society. On average. Not at the highest, but literally an average civilized society. That does not leave behind their sick, and teaches people how to drive before they put them in high-speed vehicles.
Does this justify this ... reduction in rights, and fearmongering? Of course not. We also live in a terrible time for eloquent media, and non-propaganda, so that will definitely add to it. And as you pointed out: regaining our rights will take an annoying amount of time and effort.
Edit remark: I can't seem to do @user properly. Hmpf.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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And here's me thinking a ski forum would be about - well skiing!!!
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@OwenM, You'll learn 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@BobinCH, Trump got within a few feet of staging a coup on the 6th. Tbh it was more by luck than anything else that he failed. Sadly a large proportion of the population have not yet opened their eyes to see what he really is!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Steilhang, you wrote "Sadly a large proportion of the population have not yet opened their eyes to see what he really is!" I'm sorry to say you totally miss the point - for most of them, they absolutely love what he "really is!"
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| ulmerhutte wrote: |
| LaForet wrote: |
There is a significant push globally for a more modern international vaccination certification system....
- e.g. when bars, gigs and other venues and events use the same app to validate for COVID safety and when you basically won't be able to check in at the airport, get on a ferry or board Eurotunnel without it. |
What are the odds that such a certification system will be subject to function creep over a short period of time? Each expansion will be promoted as being for the greater good. Let’s add tax status.... because it is not fair on people that pay their fair share to allow a delinquent to travel. Let’s add criminal record, initially maybe sex offenders... to protect our most vulnerable. Let’s add a flag for those who voted for Trump.... and on it will go. It will ultimately provide an easy way making a person, who the government deems undesirable, into a non-person.
If this seems to be hyperbole, then consider the limits on freedom of movement, association, employment, speech, etc that we have come to accept in the name of fighting covid. Limits that would have been considered unthinkable in a western democracy in 2019. |
Hmm so bonkers it could come from the mind of Trump himself. A record of vaccination turned into a record of how you voted so the great unspeakable evil (but probably a deep state cabal of paedophiles) can do the good citizens down.
A vaccination certificate would be just that. I'm not convinced it works because AIUI it hasn't been proven that vaccination prevents acquisition and propogation of the virus. But the fevered nightmares of neo con libertarians are probably not a convincing counterpoint.
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You know it makes sense.
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| LaForet wrote: |
| There is a significant push globally for a more modern international vaccination certification system - and one that's more than just a bit of card with just an official-looking stamp and unreadable signature on it. Against this, there's also a significant proportion of citizens who have an aversion to any digital solution, for a wide range of both rational and irrational reasons. This needs to play out. In the process, I see a lot of tension and conflict as different interests vie with each other, until a final compromise is worked out. It'll be interesting to see what emerges: perhaps something as antiquated as the UK Immigration COVID PDF Form with a QCode on it or as sophisticated as an Apple iOS Wallet. I have a suspicion that the waverers won't be swayed so much by logic as by necessity - e.g. when bars, gigs and other venues and events use the same app to validate for COVID safety and when you basically won't be able to check in at the airport, get on a ferry or board Eurotunnel without it. |
Yep, this is exactly where I am.
also, as you allude to later, anyone who has a phone (pretty much everyone) gave up privacy rights when they signed up to Google or Apple. Its the price you pay for the service and the genie aint going back in the bottle.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Dave of the Marmottes, hi Dave. I knew you would pop in soon. You seem to be stalking me, or is it unrequited love?
All that said, were you drinking when you posted, for it makes little sense, even less than your usual posts? It seems you might be stating that scope creep is not possible or even likely? Really? Bless. You do lead a wonderful, if delusional life. Enjoy.
Edit... just came across this article. Apparently written by a bunch of neo-con libertarians... https://www.forbes.com/sites/simonchandler/2020/03/23/coronavirus-could-infect-privacy-and-civil-liberties-forever/?sh=4fddcf55365d 
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Tue 19-01-21 11:49; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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Just cancelled mine for 13th March. Got our deposit from ski4less no questions asked. Will definitely book with them again next year.
If there was any chance of getting anywhere in March or April I'd go but I can't see it.
Will rebook again for same time next year I think.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Re scope drift, not really. The certification discussion is relevant. If governments agreed a standard for digital vaccine certification, various app developers brought their apps to market, and GP software companies like EMIS could generate the certificate for download to the app, then that would streamline the whole travel/immigration process. Think just another card in your Apple wallet, alongside the boarding pass, frequent flyer card and credit cards: a vaccination card. My guess is that most people would happily use this and most immigration authorities would prefer it to a piece of cardboard with text in another language which is completely unverifiable and frankly so easy to forge it's a joke. But my guess is that this won't happen fast enough to make a difference this season.
Of course, the next step would be 'why not a digital driving license?' and then 'why not a digital passport?' and so as mentioned, the scope for digital surveillance slowly but surely expands. As (or even more) importantly, so does the gap between the digitally affluent and digitally poor. Like cash vs debit cards, or 100Mbps fibre vs SIM airtime currently, what happens when those at the bottom of the ladder don't have access to the same digital services that are taken for granted by everyone else?
The Forbes-reading Libertarians like the CRG members sit in their affluent homes with 300 Mbps broadband and diversity of laptops and home electronics and private tutors for their kids, and whinge about loss of liberty because they're asked to pay taxes to level-up digital services so that other people's children can move from sharing a iPhone 5 as their sole platform for at-home learning using an expensive SIM data rate because they live in a rural area. Crossrail is worth it but not, it seems, rural broadband or laptops for schoolkids.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Tue 19-01-21 12:12; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Am I the only one being driven mad by those who appear not to know the difference between “licence” & “license”? 
There’s also a number of comments mentioning the possibility of the vaccine not being effective at blocking transmission of the virus. Really? Are there any vaccines that don’t stop you carrying/transmitting the target disease? Not being a medic or scientist, this is a serious question & not my usual sampling.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Tue 19-01-21 12:17; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| LaForet wrote: |
| ... The certification discussion is relevant. If governments agreed a standard for digital vaccine certification, various app developers brought their apps to market, and GP software companies like EMIS could generate the certificate for download to the app... |
If you want talk about the EMIS API, or MIQUEST, or FHIR, or Read Codes and SNOMED or ICD-10 then I'm all ears, although you need to explain why it's relevant.
I get the feeling you're continually name dropping EMIS for the authority you think it gives your otherwise confusing arguments.
You're using the "certificate" concept in two different ways in one sentence! You seem confused by the concept of digital
certificates - even though every website uses them.
The UK has been delivering, tracking and controlling population-level immunisation campaigns for decades.
The new codes aside, there's nothing new in any of that.
More broadly, it'll be interesting to see how vaccination records will be used, but they've existed for years and been
used by many of us in travelling the world. In some countries proof of vaccination is required for example for kids attending schools.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Gordyjh, My understanding is that we don't know yet. I guess there isn't (wasn't) enough data as very few had been jabbed. Hopefully the data will now be available, although I guess it will probably need those who've been vaccinated to be tested at random.
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Have I written the season off ? Short answer is YES , I have an apartment in Ste Foy and it now looks like the lifts won’t be running this season in France and I doubt I would be allowed to travel to Europe by the end of the season anyway . Best I can hope for is visiting in the summer .
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| ulmerhutte wrote: |
| It seems you might be stating that scope creep is not possible or even likely? Really? Bless. You do lead a wonderful, if delusional life. Enjoy. |
It's not that it's not likely, it's that it's pointless. All that info is already out in the open, if it isn't then the passport system we already have is perfectly capable of doing what you're suggesting, so if they want to then they don't need a vaccination certificate to do it.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| philwig wrote: |
| LaForet wrote: |
| ... The certification discussion is relevant. If governments agreed a standard for digital vaccine certification, various app developers brought their apps to market, and GP software companies like EMIS could generate the certificate for download to the app... |
If you want talk about the EMIS API, or MIQUEST, or FHIR, or Read Codes and SNOMED or ICD-10 then I'm all ears, although you need to explain why it's relevant.
I get the feeling you're continually name dropping EMIS for the authority you think it gives your otherwise confusing arguments.
You're using the "certificate" concept in two different ways in one sentence! You seem confused by the concept of digital
certificates - even though every website uses them.
The UK has been delivering, tracking and controlling population-level immunisation campaigns for decades.
The new codes aside, there's nothing new in any of that.
More broadly, it'll be interesting to see how vaccination records will be used, but they've existed for years and been
used by many of us in travelling the world. In some countries proof of vaccination is required for example for kids attending schools. |
'continually'? Sorry if your 'continually' is my twice. I have worked with EMIS in NHS regional applications, so given I've used it, I feel it's worth mentioning. I know about the rest but I haven't used them in an app development, so I didn't mention them.
And yes, I fully understand the difference between digital certificates and immunological certificates. See below for a more thorough discussion. I'm usually accused of verbosity rather than brevity, but if you prefer:
____________
In computer science terms a digital certificate is a mechanism for ensuring the secure authorisation of some application or transaction, based on a secure and controlled token which is issued by one party and can be recognised and checked as valid by another. A well-known model is that used in the internet called the Public Key Interface (PKI) but there are many others. I've taken an immunisation certificate to be the typical piece of cardboard or paper issued by a medical immunisation practitioner that certifies you have received a particular vaccine properly, as prescribed. I agree that I should probably have introduced an unambiguous terms such as Digital Immunisation Certificate (DIC) to avoid confusion, but I felt this was perhaps over-doing the narrative. A DIC would be the electronic equivalent of the paper Immunisation Certificate and offer a much higher degree of reliability to the process of validation and hopefully as good or better privacy of the data itself. In the UK, one software package dominates in general practice (op.cit.). This package has various application program interfaces (APIs) which connect it to other applications and can receive/transmit data and transactions using those applications APIs. An API is a fixed set of functions and associated parameters, which can also carry data in a fixed format and content, used to communicate between software components. There are also data standards used in medical services, such as the graphical Digital Imaging in Medical Communication (DICOM) used for scans etc. So I was positing that given the prevalence of one software package in GP surgeries and its ability to use APIs, it wouldn't be a major task to add one for immunisation as well, once standards emerged. It would then be open to application developers to develop apps that provided the functionality needed to provide Digital Immunisation Certificate functions that would satisfy the needs of all the stakeholders (Immigration, Medics, Patients) with a reasonable degree of reliability, security and privacy. If this could be achieved sooner rather than later, then it would represent a major streamlining of what is currently a paper-based process. And that if that happened, it might mean that there is hope for the earlier return of international travel than would otherwise be the case. The worry, of course, is that as with many technology advances previously, the mere existence of a good DIC system could result in overwhelming, but thoughtless acceptance of an advance that while attractive and useful, had the potential to become something much more sinister.
I hope this is a rigorous enough version of my original comment.
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| ulmerhutte wrote: |
| LaForet wrote: |
There is a significant push globally for a more modern international vaccination certification system....
- e.g. when bars, gigs and other venues and events use the same app to validate for COVID safety and when you basically won't be able to check in at the airport, get on a ferry or board Eurotunnel without it. |
What are the odds that such a certification system will be subject to function creep over a short period of time? Each expansion will be promoted as being for the greater good. Let’s add tax status.... because it is not fair on people that pay their fair share to allow a delinquent to travel. Let’s add criminal record, initially maybe sex offenders... to protect our most vulnerable. Let’s add a flag for those who voted for Trump.... and on it will go. It will ultimately provide an easy way making a person, who the government deems undesirable, into a non-person.
If this seems to be hyperbole, then consider the limits on freedom of movement, association, employment, speech, etc that we have come to accept in the name of fighting covid. Limits that would have been considered unthinkable in a western democracy in 2019. |
I think Brits voted for that one.....
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@MorningGory, that’s not the the answer to the question I asked. I’m under the impression that the vaccines we have for many diseases not only prevent us from dying from those diseases but also stop us carrying them and passing them on. Is this not right and why would the COVID vaccine be different?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Gordyjh, I think (?) that was the question I answered. We don't yet know if the CV vaccine stops us carrying it yet. If it doesn't, I'm not sure if it's an issue with the vaccine, or just a feature of the CV19 virus.
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@MorningGory, I was asking whether any previous vaccines failed to stop you carrying the disease/pass it on. In other words, if vaccination generally prevents transmission, why should the COVID vaccine be any different?
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You know it makes sense.
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@Gordyjh, Ah, gotcha. Interesting question. I've done some googling, but as just about all the results were about CV19 I am none the wiser!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@MorningGory, I probably didn’t express myself very well - communication is a 2-way process!
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Gordyjh,
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@MorningGory, @Gordyjh, the link below might help. Essentially some vaccines do and some don't...
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/vaccines-need-not-completely-stop-covid-transmission-to-curb-the-pandemic1/
"The fight against smallpox inspired early inoculation efforts and led to English physician Edward Jenner’s cowpox vaccine against smallpox in 1796. “The [smallpox] vaccination caused sterilizing immunity, meaning that you don’t carry any of the virus. The antibodies that you generate, the responses you generate, clear the virus from your system entirely,” Bowdish says.
Although many vaccines widely used today (against measles, for example) produce very effective sterilizing immunity, others, such as the hepatitis B vaccine, do not. With these vaccines, an individual’s immune system is trained to prevent illness, yet the pathogen can persist in that person’s body, potentially allowing them to infect others. A lack of sterilizing immunity means that the pathogen can continue to circulate in a population, where it may cause illness in unvaccinated and vulnerable people or evolve to evade our immune responses, Bowdish explains. "
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Handy Turnip, Perfect, ta.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| ulmerhutte wrote: |
| @Dave of the Marmottes, hi Dave. I knew you would pop in soon. You seem to be stalking me, or is it unrequited love? |
Is that a whiff of paranoia I smell?
@Dave of the Marmottes, posts on many threads on many subjects. Seeing as he posted on this thread as long as s week ago he's hardly following you around ...unless you're suggesting he's predicting where you'll post in advance.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Handy Turnip, thanks
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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PS I realise I could probably have googled it but it’s easier to get useful information from Snowheads 
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| Roscoe wrote: |
Has everyone written of this season |
When I first read this I thought -
It‘s a bit early for me to write my memoirs, isn‘t it?
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FR lifts not opening in Feb - last month’s plans became hopes this month. I’ve not written off this season yet but it’s only becoming more likely.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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With a heavy heart I just cancelled my apartment reservation in Tignes from the 6th March, it's not happening and even on the very minor chance it would I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable travelling at this time. This really sucks we best not be in this position next winter.
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@Minion1980, That's the worry isn't it, some so called new variant comes along. I really can see that happening I think it's going to take a good few years before govts decide this is endemic and we live along side. Perhaps to do that we need to scale up the NHS in winter and that takes time and money.
Desperately hope to go skiing next season.
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FAQ
