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France returns to lockdown

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
rungsp wrote:
A bit like the astonishing genome sequencing data I saw a few weeks ago.
In one week Wales (remember how small Wales is) did more sequencing tests than France had done, in total, since the beginning of the whole pandemic


Exactly. France is an absolute basket case at the moment. The political will to avoid a nationwide lockdown is overriding everything. Mind you, Germany isn’t much better.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
telford_mike wrote:
.....Exactly. France is an absolute basket case at the moment.....


I've been describing it as a slow-motion car-crash.

It's all been about their damn holidays it seems these past four weeks, I know I go on about it, but if you lived and saw what we do on a daily basis you'd be like us.

Why they, the Govt at least didn't introduce some rule of family / six or something before the holidays is beyond me, to see some of these large groups congregating is crazy and I heard from a mate I was ski touring with this week that a taxi driver told him that there was a chalet gite where 9 out of 14 had it and they were all still going out!

Like I've said there are no restrictions to travelling and numbers so no-one is breaking any rules!

So we await to see what new measures will be announced now the holidays are more or less over.

And I see that back in the UK on the Costa Geriatrica, my home town Worthing which back in November had one of the lowest rates in the country is now one of the highest in the SE !
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There is, or at least was, a rule of no more than 6 being together. That was definitely stressed over Christmas and New Year. Being largely ignored similarly here. I saw 8 pairs of shoes lined up outside a one bedroom apartment in my building.
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@Claude B, perhaps the one bedroom apartment is being occupied by Imelda Marcos. Toofy Grin
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@Alastair Pink, no I saw them all trooping in and out. It's the same as mine which was set up for eight when I bought it. Mine now has a double bed in the bedroom and a bed settee in the living room which is rarely used.
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Claude B wrote:
@Alastair Pink, no I saw them all trooping in and out. It's the same as mine which was set up for eight when I bought it. Mine now has a double bed in the bedroom and a bed settee in the living room which is rarely used.


They could all have been one family unit/bubble. its funny that you see so many complaints from people saying things such as " while I was out in town, I was really schocked to see so many people in town"
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I don't think bubbles exist in France. Six was the max unless of course you have more than that living together in a family anyway.
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If it's a "family" then you might expect a good variation of shoe size? Be very unusual to have a "family bubble" of similar ages.
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One of the more bizarre conversations on Snowheads.
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I wonder if they will be able to open resorts normally in late Nov/early Dec? It does make me wonder with all this going on
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There must be a point at which some of the lift companies are simply going to become unviable and go into administration? There are always a few each year who do so, usually small operators in small, marginal areas. But I wonder if we'll see any of the bigger companies throw in the towel this summer? And if it does happen to some of the bigger operators, then the impact on the local economies and property market will be dramatic.
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The way I see it, it all boils down to the fact that even with lockdowns and curfews, schools in France have remained open since September.
Everyone knows children are walking germ bags, so if schools are open, any other restrictions seem pretty pointless.
You can't allow 30 teenagers in a classroom, 50 on a school bus, and several hundred in a school dining room and then forbid them from gathering outside together for a bit of fun or going on holiday together.
Same goes for ski schools. Yes, the little ones are huddled together in groups, but they spend all day huddled together in class, so it makes no difference.

The 6pm curfew is a waste of time, nobody respects it round here anymore, particularly the kids. The streets might seem deserted but the back alleys are teeming with life. I have 4 teenagers, all in different schools, and yes, they do what they want, when they want, with whoever they want. I can't give them any logical reason not to. How can I forbid them from socialising in the evenings with the friends they've just sat next to for 8 hours ? !

If schools were closed, it would be different, but as they're not, I can't see the point in other restrictions.
I'm not saying it's right, personally I was convinced we were heading for drawn-out holidays with schools shut for longer and a strict 1hr/1km lockdown. But as the Govt obviously decided against it, we shouldn't be surprised to see the end result.
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@sucette,
Quote:

Everyone knows children are walking germ bags, so if schools are open, any other restrictions seem pretty pointless.

This
Quote:

The 6pm curfew is a waste of time, nobody respects it round here anymore, particularly the kids.

This
Quote:

If schools were closed, it would be different, but as they're not, I can't see the point in other restrictions.

This

I think the early Lancet paper (?) on NPIs was that open schools negated very much of the benefit.

No the French have gone into partial lockdown insanity. Curfew alternate days, some weekends, lockdowns others, some towns next week, others the week after for three weeks, two weeks, not at all, etc. Total insanity. And of course vaccinated 3 people a week.

rolling eyes rolling eyes
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
sucette wrote:
The way I see it, it all boils down to the fact that even with lockdowns and curfews, schools in France have remained open since September.
Everyone knows children are walking germ bags, so if schools are open, any other restrictions seem pretty pointless.
You can't allow 30 teenagers in a classroom, 50 on a school bus, and several hundred in a school dining room and then forbid them from gathering outside together for a bit of fun or going on holiday together.
Same goes for ski schools. Yes, the little ones are huddled together in groups, but they spend all day huddled together in class, so it makes no difference.

The 6pm curfew is a waste of time, nobody respects it round here anymore, particularly the kids. The streets might seem deserted but the back alleys are teeming with life. I have 4 teenagers, all in different schools, and yes, they do what they want, when they want, with whoever they want. I can't give them any logical reason not to. How can I forbid them from socialising in the evenings with the friends they've just sat next to for 8 hours ? !

If schools were closed, it would be different, but as they're not, I can't see the point in other restrictions.
I'm not saying it's right, personally I was convinced we were heading for drawn-out holidays with schools shut for longer and a strict 1hr/1km lockdown. But as the Govt obviously decided against it, we shouldn't be surprised to see the end result.


You - like many people - miss something in this description.
Every interaction carries a risk of transmission.
Governments are trying to manage the total transmission through restricting the number of interactions but prioritizing those on the most important ones.
This means that meeting people for education is more important than meeting people for socialising.
At the individual level your risk is increased is you meet people at school AND in the evening.

So in reality there are very good reasons to explain to your children why they should be REDUCING the number of interactions by obeying the rules not to meet up outside school.

The argument of "why can't I do x because I can do y" misses the point - you are asking to do x AND y and that increases the risk over just doing x.
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@jedster, good summary. Overall, it is necessary to reduce the number, proximity, frequency and duration of unique indoor interactions.

Whether that is done by closing schools and keeping bars open (as in some of the US), or closing bars and keeping schools open, or restricting people to meeting outside (fine for my colleague in Atlanta, not so good in Montana) is much more of a political decision.

In the UK, we have the situation where kids who sit next to each other in class are not allowed to sit together in a car to and from school - apparently ludicrous, but in reality, it reduces cumulative duration and proximity.
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@jedster, Hum. My kids are currently on holiday, they go back to school on Monday. This means for the last 2 weeks they've had no restrictions on meeting up with their friends during the day, inside or outside, until 6pm. With no skiing, there's not alot else to do here for teenagers apart from hanging out together, so they have all been inseparable. The 6pm curfew just means you're not allowed to be outside after this time... nothing to stop the teens gathering together for an evening, as long as they all sleep over... rolling eyes which is what happens. Rather counter-productive. And renders the curfew completely pointless. But there you go. That's my point.

I get the science... but in reality, it just doesn't work.
I knew I'd get hammered for my post, we'll just have to agree to disagree !
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@sucette, it's all right, we know you are just telling us what life is like on the ground. Same as UK, what actually happens is not the same as what should happen. Particularly once restrictions go on for months.


Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Thu 4-03-21 14:56; edited 1 time in total
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under a new name wrote:


No the French have gone into partial lockdown insanity. Curfew alternate days, some weekends, lockdowns others, some towns next week, others the week after for three weeks, two weeks, not at all, etc. Total insanity. And of course vaccinated 3 people a week.

rolling eyes rolling eyes


Agree. Either we have a complete lockdown, schools included, or we don't.
Half measures, curfews, specific towns, weekend-only lockdowns are ridiculous.
Have you seen what's been happening in Nice ? They've been hit with a weekend-only lockdown... which results in a mass exodus every Friday at 4pm for the surrounding mountains... totally bonkers Puzzled
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Where science runs into human fallibility and inadequate political messaging, human fallibility will always win. Even for parents that undestand the science it's hard for them to be the bad guys locking their kids down while everyone else has free reign. UK lockdown is definitely imperfect judging by the groups of 4 or 5 teens I see walking around but equally can't get that excited because they are outside and what else have they got beyond playstation and netflix?
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@Dave of the Marmottes, also, there's been years of preaching to teens about getting outside and not spending all day on the X-box...
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Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
UK lockdown is definitely imperfect judging by the groups of 4 or 5 teens I see walking around but equally can't get that excited because they are outside and what else have they got beyond playstation and netflix?
Groups of 4 or 5 teens outside for a couple of hours each day sounds vastly less risky than groups of 30 teenagers inside for eight hours a day. I also think it's not something to get overly excited about, nor draw the conclusion that all restrictions should be immediately abandoned because kids don't follow all the rules.
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@j b, thanks, you're spot on ! It's not easy. In fact it's pretty damn hard. Running a semi-closed hotel with a closed restaurant and a closed bar in a ski resort with no skiing is an absolute nightmare.
My kids see us constantly worrying about the future. They're old enough to see the struggle, understand the implications, realise that without government help we wouldn't survive.... it's a killer. We've always worked so hard and encouraged our kids to do the same, to be reliant on the state is simply awful.
So yes, I let my kids live their lives as teenagers should. They're not doing anything wrong, and anyway I haven't the heart to do otherwise.
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
The skatepark in Camden was closed as a 'measure'.
I actually wrote to the Council, pointing out that their policy was directly responsible for transforming a large community of physically active people who, until then, had been naturally socially distanced, into inactive huddled groups who have nothing better to do than [probably] pass coronavirus between them on spliffs.

Their response? To instruct me that if I witness anyone taking drugs I should inform the police rolling eyes

It doesn't matter what the statistically justifiable technical details of the underlying nuanced reasoning behind the development of the policy, are... if it doesn't work on a simple human level, it's total waste of time.
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admin wrote:
The skatepark in Camden was closed as a 'measure'.
I actually wrote to the Council, pointing out that their policy was directly responsible for transforming a large community of physically active people who, until then, had been naturally socially distanced, into inactive huddled groups who have nothing better to do than [probably] pass coronavirus between them on spliffs.

Their response? To instruct me that if I witness anyone taking drugs I should inform the police rolling eyes

It doesn't matter what the statistically justifiable technical details of the underlying nuanced reasoning behind the development of the policy, are... if it doesn't work on a simple human level, it's total waste of time.


Thats bizarre, different rules here.

I was out earlier and - despite it being a little chilly today - all the (16) tennis courts at The Meadows near me are full. Council are letting people use them foc during the pandemic and they are really busy every day.

As you say, exercise is really important and after a flipping year, just "walking round the block" isnt quite as cutting edge as it was.............
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@GreenDay, it's reasons like this that diminish respect for policy generally.
The next nearest skatepark, in Westbourne park = open.
Up the road in Hackney:
Victoria park = closed, surrounded by fencing and regularly visited by PCSOs to enforce its quarantine
Clissold park = open rolling eyes

I don't go to Clissold, because it's overcrowded for taking up the demand from the others, so again, the practical effects of the policy are counter to the stated intent.
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More departments under special surveillance and the whole of the Nord pas de Calais under weekend curfew. But no new departments under weekend curfew. Closure of indoor commercial centres extended to smaller ones too. Powers to close outdoor areas where measures are being flouted. Updates on infection rates, vaccination programme. From memory.
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Worth pointing out its not just teenagers not following the rules-40% of over-80s in the UK now breaking them apparently!
I know it's because they've been vaccinated, but rules are rules.....
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There are limits to what can reasonably be expected and when "rules" seem pointless (like closing skateparks) people will rebel. Our local park tennis courts are closed (though the park is open, albeit with the toilets closed.....). My son in law would like to take the two grandchildren to play a bit of tennis, as they'd started having lessons last summer. But not possible.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
sucette wrote:
@jedster, Hum. My kids are currently on holiday, they go back to school on Monday. This means for the last 2 weeks they've had no restrictions on meeting up with their friends during the day, inside or outside, until 6pm. With no skiing, there's not alot else to do here for teenagers apart from hanging out together, so they have all been inseparable. The 6pm curfew just means you're not allowed to be outside after this time... nothing to stop the teens gathering together for an evening, as long as they all sleep over... rolling eyes which is what happens. Rather counter-productive. And renders the curfew completely pointless. But there you go. That's my point.

I get the science... but in reality, it just doesn't work.
I knew I'd get hammered for my post, we'll just have to agree to disagree !


What you are describing is rules that were probably badly constructed, compounded by people who have ignored, bent, mis-interpreted and cheated them.

The kids have had restrictions on meeting their friends and having sleepovers = they're called parents.

It's one thing to think the rules are crap, but it takes a special kind of people to not at least respect the principle and get us all out of this crap.

As the Pub Landlord says "What do you get with no rules? FRANCE!"
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@NickYoung, I really can't be bothered to reply, so I'll disappear off to another thread.
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@sucette, Sulk about it all you like, but if you know the rules, understand the rules, and choose to ignore or bend the rules, then you are part of the problem.

It's not just a French thing - it's everywhere including the UK.

There are bellends everywhere, stretching it out for all of us.
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What I think is extraordinary is the French Govt have asked those in the at risk areas not to move around, to slow the inevitable spread of the English varient, but have for the last few weeks, encouraged people to do the opposite by allowing them to all go on holiday. The North and Grand Est are currently on vacation. Morzine is full of number plates from Lille.
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@zzz, French holidays end this weekend.
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Bizarrely our Préfet has just issued an arrêt banning drinking in the street during weekends. During the holidays many bars, cafés, restaurants and cabins have been selling vin chaud, beer, etc with people congregating to drink it. After the weekend they'll all be closed with very few tourist here anyway Puzzled It does cover all of Isère but ......
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@zzz, as we were discussing ...

Chamonix is rammed at the moment and I assume it has been all vacances. And the least risky activity has been banned ...

... and they've all been sledging, touring, xc skiing with no experience so heli rescue has rarely been busier ...

... was talking to a surgeon in Bern uni hospital one saturday as a helo landed above, "skiing?" I asked, "god, no" she replied, "sledging. definitely. The worst."
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@under a new name, like I said a few pages back....

Weathercam wrote:
I stopped off in the super-market at 14:00 when it was lovely and quiet, and in there bumped into two people I know and @KenX, who have been in the valley a long-while, and one is a nurse in Briancon Hospital!


Basically, the Nurse said that things are getting worse, a lot worse, initially she said it was loads of accidents toboggans being number one and then ski du fond, in her words from "people that just should not be here" and now three weeks in they're seeing cases of the new variant via people from Nice.

(


And this morning was at the Doctors and he said the vacancies were the major problem.

And a nice unbiased article in the Telegraph Laughing

Macron is the joker now as Europe blunders into fateful third wave of the pandemic
We are only just beginning to glimpse the tectonic consequences of Covid failure for Europe's political order


Emmanuel Macron and Boris Johnson have swapped places. The French technocrat has become the Covid gambler, hoping to muddle through the third wave with half measures and to wish away the invading variants.

In late January he took one of his Jupiterian decisions - alone - and defied the overwhelming majority of his scientists, something Mr Johnson never actually did despite the media myth in Europe that he was some sort of Bolsonaro.

Mr Macron overruled the Conseil Scientifique and France’s epidemiologists, and even his own prime minister. This was a big deal. It was seen as an act of bold leadership by an intelligent man weighing up all the medical, social, and economic variables in their just proportions. He was rewarded with a bounce in the polls.

Every week without a lockdown buys time, he said confidently, a week gained for economic recovery. This is an extraordinary line of argument given everything we have learned over the pandemic. He himself criticised Mr Johnson (unfairly) for delaying in much the same way a year ago before the respass of our Magna Carta rights became routine and when it was perhaps more understandable, threatening to close the French frontier at one point unless the UK followed his lead.
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@Hells Bells,
Yes, I'm aware of that.
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@Weathercam, vacancies, vacances, or vaccines?!

Whilst we can all blame the politicians, it's also possible to take our own steps and our own personal responsibility. If we think the politicians should lock down, and/or borders close, then we can chose to minimise our own exposure, not travel etc.

We've all done things that have increased the risk, and even tho' those things worked out for us, on a societal/population level they don't work.
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@snowdave, vacanciers Laughing
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Lots of local folk in the French Alps hate the vacanciers, especially the Parisians, but they don't usually have such a good excuse.
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