 Poster: A snowHead
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Hello all,
I probably went off-piste too early and would like to spend some proper time on piste again, getting my technique squared away and hopefully learning to carve as well. I'm looking at a Whitedot Ronde 96 for something that will work on piste but can go off occasionally as well. I already have a pair of Preachers for deeper days. What do you all think? Any suggestions for other skis gratefully received.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I'd say mid 80's wide as a maximum for general piste skiing, any wider will be hard work as well as hard on the knees.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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What about Atomic Vantage? https://shop.atomic.com/en/products/vantage-90-ti-aa3930.html . I might well be biased as the first place I skied on snow was what is now Ski Amade. Atomic skis were made in a factory just outside Wagrain (probably made somewhere else now), so I have had a bias towards them ever since. I like the Vantage 90s as they go well on piste but perfectly OK for less groomed terrain as well. Sure they wont suit rubber legged experts though.
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Some suggestions:
Rossignol Experience 88Ti
Atomic Vantage 82Ti
Elan Wingman 86 CTi (or Ti)
Scott Slight 83
Dynastar Legend 88
Nordica Enforcer 88
You will have to pick what compromises to make ie. Generally speaking, the narrower you go, the better it will be On Piste (especially for short turns); but the less float it will have Off Piste.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Thu 6-08-20 18:58; edited 2 times in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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K2 Mindbender 90ti and the Salomon QST 92 also worth considering. Some very good deals available on the latter at the moment.
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| boobleblooble wrote: |
| I probably went off-piste too early |
Don't see the logic of that statement. For me skiing off piste is "sooner the better". Have you had any lessons or coaching. That's more likely to be the problem.
What is the problem exactly?
Not that there is anything wrong with doing some piste skiing if that is what you fancy doing. Just not convinced it will work without any lessons/coaching.
| boobleblooble wrote: |
| and would like to spend some proper time on piste again, getting my technique squared away and hopefully learning to carve as well. I'm looking at a Whitedot Ronde 96 for something that will work on piste but can go off occasionally as well. I already have a pair of Preachers for deeper days. What do you all think? Any suggestions for other skis gratefully received. |
I thought Preachers were meant to be pretty good on piste despite their primary purpose. As per the reviews here hence my thinking above.
For the record my kids both ski on Legends and they seem to get on very well with them as every day ski anything ski.
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| Layne wrote: |
Not that there is anything wrong with doing some piste skiing if that is what you fancy doing. Just not convinced it will work without any lessons/coaching.
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Absolutely agree with this.....and a narrower ski will make it all easier.
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| Layne wrote: |
I thought Preachers were meant to be pretty good on piste despite their primary purpose. As per the reviews here hence my thinking above.
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They are - but they are also a proper skiers' ski that you need some technique (or alternatively pie consumption) to get to deliver. They aren't a cruiser. And let's face it 112mm waist isn't that easy to tip side to side with refinement. Sounds like the OP is really looking for a so-called "all mountain"* ski in the mid to high 80s of which there are many.
* all mountain in a marketing sense meaning groomers with the odd bit of offpiste dabbling rather than equal usage of all skiable terrain types.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, agreed: I think they were too much ski for me when I bought them. It's OK now with more experience but I could've made my life much easier. You need to get forward on them and stay there and they're definitely a fair bit of work on the knees. Nice though, I really like mine.
I'd like something I can use on piste more, yes with a bit off piste here and there: more of a spring ski when the off piste is hard-packed and not very kind to wide skis like the Preachers.
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Your weight/ability/preference will determine whether you want lighter and more playful; or damp and hard charging.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@boobleblooble, I would think about doing a ski test or hiring a couple of different pairs to get a feel of what suits.
Having a few suggestions/recommendations from Snowheads is no bad thing but ultimately it's about what you get on with.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@boobleblooble, I've not got enough experience of any of the other skis mentioned above to comment on them, but in regard to your op suggesting the Ronde96:
If you like your Preachers (albeit with the caveats above about the 112 waist) then you should like the Ronde. The 96 will make life easier on piste as clearly it's narrower but also it has a nice progressive tip rocker. There's still a decent sidecut, to transfer some of that 'Preacher' experience to the newer narrower ski.
Pretty much as ever my advice would be to speak to Jon at The Piste Office, he'll have the knowledge about the Ronde, but also access to, and knowledge of, pretty much all the skis named above and will give you balanced advice after getting to know your requirements.
Enjoy whatever you get, we all know that more skis directly leads to a happier life 
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| midgetbiker wrote: |
Pretty much as ever my advice would be to speak to Jon at The Piste Office, he'll have the knowledge about the Ronde, but also access to, and rainman level knowledge of, pretty much all the skis named above and will give you balanced advice after getting to know your requirements.
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FIFY
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You know it makes sense.
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I would have thought that something around 80-83mm would suit well, as it'll give that 'piste' ability that will help you develop your carving skills, yet allow a bit of off or side piste when there are so 'freshies'.
Atomic Vantage is a really good option, but I wouldn't get hung up on any particular manufacturer, get the length right though.
by the by, I had a really good week two seasons ago when I used a pair of old Atomic Nomad blackeyes (80mm), they carved well on piste, worked well in powder. I didn't need to take my Vantage 90 out of their bag.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| boobleblooble wrote: |
| I'd like something I can use on piste more, yes with a bit off piste here and there: more of a spring ski when the off piste is hard-packed and not very kind to wide skis like the Preachers. |
Got to admit I still really don't get this.
Anybody that I know that ski's off piste would never not ski off piste if conditions were vaguely manageable. I mean I always end up skiing a fair amount of piste, either because the off piste is so bad, or because I am trying to get somewhere, or because my wife or kids have had enough off piste or because the vis is poor. So I am always get off whenever I can. On a good day that could be most of the day and a bad day little or none. But anyway, I can't imagine myself saying I am going to try and ski more piste. That may be what you genuinely what do but honestly, sounds to me like you just bought the wrong ski one way or another.
Apologies if I am coming across as harsh.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Layne, Theres plenty of days when off piste is more like "good for you" snow than good snow. And others where it is a toss up as to whether you can find anything better offpiste than on. Plus maybe a bit more decent piste mileage might build better allround skills than "surviving" off piste. There's a reason many "learn to ski offpiste" lessons are spent mainly on piste.
I think the OP is saying the ratio they ski OP to P is significantly less than 1:1 so better reflecting that reality. I wouldn't argue with that - a Preacher might be a 1 ski quiver but only somewhere where it is predominantly pretty soft and definitely not somewhere where it gets seriously icy, refrozen or wind polished on a regular basis.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@boobleblooble, I’d go a full on piste only ski and take two sets of skis on holiday  I don’t regret getting my Rossignol hero MT Ti skis, and have a freeride ski for offpiste. I did similar to you in skiing mostly offpiste as soon as I was able and conditions allowed, and now wanting to focus more on proper piste technique - just came back from a Warren Smith course.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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+1 to @Themasterpiece's suggestion. If you are planning to spend time on piste focusing on technique, it will be easier and more enjoyable on skis designed for the job, and you'll likely make progress more quickly.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, agreed. I've done a fair few UCPA off-piste weeks and you don't actually get that much mileage: last season the good stuff took a bit of finding. Spending some hours on piste just bashing out laps and focussing on one thing at a time will work. There's no reason why I can't save a few quid before I do (if I do) a season and have a couple of hours in a group lesson each week to refine what I'm doing.
@Themasterpiece, I'll maybe buy a 90mm-waist ski or thereabouts: not impossible when going off-piste but not much fun either. I'll keep the Preachers for deep days and the middling days with chopped pow.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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As you're not really looking for a 'one ski quiver', I'd stay sub-90 too...although that said, I was very impressed by the Scott Slight 93 when I tried them (despite having a bit of a dodgy knee). The Preacher is pretty good at doing most days where you think you'll be doing more than a little dabble off the side.
@Layne, it depends a lot on circumstances, and what's true for you isn't necessarily true for others. Personally I like variety in my skiing, and if conditions aren't brilliant off piste then I'd rather be ripping down a blue run than being off piste. Sounds to me like you prefer being off piste regardless, as long as it's safe, which I'm sure you have a lovely time doing but to me seems like being off piste just for the sake of it.
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@boobleblooble, If your brief is to really concentrate on your Piste skiing (80% of the time), with a "bit of Off Piste here and there" - then as many people have said, sub 90 would be preferable (as near 80 as you can handle Off Piste).
If your brief is simply to have something better for piste skiing than you currently have, where you use it 40 - 50% of the time Off Piste, then look in the 90s.
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In snowboarding they sell a lot of trick boards to people who don't actually do (or care about) tricks,
and a lot of powder boards are bought by people who'll never ride powder. I think it's a marketing issue.
In my experience it's more fun riding piste oriented gear off piste than it is riding powder gear on piste.
At either extreme (heli powder/ race) obviously a dedicated board is what you want, but in between...
I think most people will find moderate piste oriented gear more useful more of the time than massively
wide stuff designed for the perfect days most people will seldom if ever encounter.
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Thanks for all the advice. I suppose what I mean is that I want a 'hardpack ski': able to work on- and off-piste on firm snow whether bashed or packed down hard by freeze-thaw or being skiied on lots e.g. moguls.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| SnoodlesMcFlude wrote: |
| Personally I like variety in my skiing, and if conditions aren't brilliant off piste then I'd rather be ripping down a blue run than being off piste. |
Well, "conditions aren't brilliant" is the question isn't it. There are off piste conditions that just aren't fun. Either because of the snow - frozen crust or pudding mixture density for example - or because of the visibility. In which case like I am perfectly happy doing some piste cruising, maybe some bumps and so on. There are maybe some marginal conditions off piste that I would ski that others wouldn't. However, the general rule applies - skiing off piste is more interesting and more fun. If it wasn't why would I bother. And indeed I have skied with people that simply don't.
| SnoodlesMcFlude wrote: |
| Sounds to me like you prefer being off piste regardless, as long as it's safe, which I'm sure you have a lovely time doing but to me seems like being off piste just for the sake of it. |
I'll always be testing out the snow off piste because it's constantly changing with conditions and altitude. If I do a couple of turns and it's no fun I will just bale. Sometimes you start something, it's OK/good and then it turns to cack and you can no longer bale. In which case you switch to survival/get down mode. Which can also be kind of fun in a way! You can and some people do, just choose your days/moments - when it's fairly obvious it's simply a good off piste day. For the latter having piste and off piste ski's could work. But for me it sounds like the OP isn't one of those skiers. Happy to be proved wrong. And if he isn't that's one of those type of skiers that is the reason I say he brought the wrong ski. Because I reckon if he buys a 90/95 waist ski he'll end up rarely using the Preachers.
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| boobleblooble wrote: |
| I suppose what I mean is that I want a 'hardpack ski': able to work on- and off-piste on firm snow whether bashed or packed down hard by freeze-thaw or being skiied on lots e.g. moguls. |
I think you are getting confused and overthinking it.
There are skis that are designed to be very good for one job and OK or not very good at everything else. If only ski piste, spend all day in the park, ski Japan powder every day, ski moguls, ski race or ski tour (maybe) you are going to want a specialised ski that does that job very well and you live with it for anything else. And then there are all mountain skis aka freeride skies aka 1-ski quiver which are basically designed to be good or decent across the whole mountain. That what I would call "punters" i.e., people from the UK (other countries are available) that go on a ski holiday, hit the slopes and take whatever nature delivers. A ski that you can take out the locker in the morning and not have to ponder what is outside that door. So..
Are you going to be skiing mostly in Europe?
Are you going to be a punter?
Will you ski the whole mountain?
If so you need an all mountain ski and nothing else.
There are lots of all mountain skis - some of which will suit you.
I ski waist size 97 but I reckon I could live with something at least 10 either way. A lot depends on the design of the ski and you, rather than purely the cut.
All IMHO.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| boobleblooble wrote: |
| Thanks for all the advice. I suppose what I mean is that I want a 'hardpack ski': able to work on- and off-piste on firm snow whether bashed or packed down hard by freeze-thaw or being skiied on lots e.g. moguls. |
The list of skis that I mentioned above, were carefully chosen for their On Piste performance - with a reasonable ability to handle Off Piste. They generally have a shorter Turn Radius, with a decent camber. Some are on the stiffer end of the spectrum and some are on the more playful side (Scott and Atomic).
The Elan is interesting, as having a ski in the mid 80s is a newish trend....and there are 2 options, with the CTi being the higher performing one.
A good place to start, would be to check out reviews on the recommendations that you've received, to narrow down a couple of contenders - ideally to try.
The trouble is, what makes a good Piste Ski, is pretty much the opposite of what makes a good Off Piste Ski.
IMO. Generally, a ski that is good for moguls is on the more playful side, with a tail that is not too stiff.
Some of your stats/info would also be helpful:
- What weight and height are you?
- What is your standard?
- How fast do you like to ski?
- Do you prefer a Playful ski, or a hard charging one?
- What skis have you liked as a Piste ski in the past?
- How much carving instruction have you had?
- What is the narrowest ski you can manage away from the piste?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Layne, I'm going to be skiing for a season (if Brexit and the Wuhan Death Flu don't stop everything) this winter. I've got the Preachers for powder days.
@Old Fartbag,
- 6'5" and 17 stone
- UCPA "advanced"
- moderately
- hard-charging as I need to be encouraged to go faster
- haven't skiied a piste ski for years
- little to none
- the narrowest I can remember skiing are my touring skis which are 108
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| boobleblooble wrote: |
| Thanks for all the advice. I suppose what I mean is that I want a 'hardpack ski': able to work on- and off-piste on firm snow whether bashed or packed down hard by freeze-thaw or being skiied on lots e.g. moguls. |
If you really want to improve your on piste skiing, & learn carving I'd be going no wider than mid 80s. If you really want to have fun on piste a punter GS or Slalom ski is great fun and will be a good addition to the Preacher IMHO. Something stiff and performant will let you know pdq if you are in the back seat!
I'd also put some money aside for some lessons, to get the most out of the skis.
*edit* just seen your weight, a performant GS type ski I reckon would be spot on!
Skis like the Atomic Redster G9, Volkl Deacon 80, older skis like Volkl Code L if you can find any long enough would be a good price
If you are doing a season then I'd be finding a shop that'll let you try various ones out early season and get one that suits you.
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You know it makes sense.
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Thank you for the info and FWIW, these would be my thoughts:
1. Your size, weight and hard charging aspirations, would put you on the more damp end of the spectrum.
2. Having had "little to none" Carving instruction, a narrower ski would make learning this discipline easier.
3. Putting all this together, you might like to check out this ski: https://www.proskilab.co.uk/h/men-s-all-mountain/ski-reviews-2020-elan-wingman-86-cti/648
"The behaviour on the piste is simply excellent. The ski is very solid on its supports, agile, with a very good boost at the end of turns. The ski gives a lot of sensations and you don't get bored.
Off-piste, the ski shines with its ease. Despite its 86 mm waist, its buoyancy is correct in powder. Transitioning to choppy snow is very good and the ski does not allow itself to be deformed in lumps of compacted snow.
Capable of cut and skid handling, small and large turns with fluidity, the Wingman 86 CTI is comfortable on all terrains and demonstrates great versatility".
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| boobleblooble wrote: |
| ... - hard-charging as I need to be encouraged to go faster.. |
That's a conclusion I think may be wrong.
If you buy something which is supposed to be driven at Mach 2, then the problem is that it will only really work at Mach 2,
with disappointing performance at ordinary speeds. If you try something and overpower it at resort speeds, then get something
beefier, but otherwise you'd be more likely to be encouraged to go faster by something which works well at your normal speeds.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Couple of quick points. I've skied the Ronde 96 in a fridge in a 186 length, which is a pretty terrible testing environment so take this with a pinch of salt. I'm about 82kg.
1. it's a nice ski but it feels slightly planky at slow speeds. I think that would go away if you stood on the gas
2. it doesn't really hook up in the way a specialist piste ski will, presumably because of the combination of the sidecut (19m) and the rocker.
3. it's more of a medium to long turns option
I also have an Atomic Vantage 90 in a 184. This is my regular piste ski:
1. good edge hold for a 90mm ski but compromised next to a decent slalom ski
2. compromise on hardpack is worth it as I ski a lot in late spring and the combination of width and rocker is good on cut up and slushy pistes
3. as with the Ronde, the combination of a slightly longer sidecut and tip rocker mean that you don't get pulled into the turn in the same way you would by something with a 14m sidecut and less rocker.
4. again, more of a medium to long radius option. The ski wants to run and it is at its most enjoyable when you have the space to let it.
If you are looking for a piste ski for midwinter then I would buy a piste ski rather than an AM ski and take two pairs on holiday. If you QK one of the pairs then getting two in a regular bag isn't an issue. If you are looking for something to ski in spring then, it's a personal thing, I prefer an AM ski for skiing on piste. But, again that's a personal preference and others feel differently about this.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@gorilla, I agree.
I love my Scott "The Ski" (92 waist) as an all round solution.
I'm 65kg and have the 180. It doesn't compare to the slalom skis I own and wouldn't be the best tool to use for learning the foundations of carving (more a tool for when you have a little skill).....There is just too much early rise at the tip, to get it to fully engage at the start of the turn.
It is also harder work in Short Turns, as edge to edge just isn't as instant as a Piste oriented ski.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@boobleblooble, this is by far the easiest category of skis to hire, so I'd echo the comments that suggest renting some to give it a go. You might be surprised by how manageable a "piste" ski is for off piste.
I have a pair of 165cm Dynastar Speed Zone 16 Ti, with a <70mm waist (amongst many other skis) and I'm 72kg. They are as close to a "pure" piste ski as you can get without ending up on race skis.
For the more marginal off-piste conditions referred to (hard/crusty/icy/mogulled) I find they are fantastic fun, and I'd use them over anything else that's sitting on my balcony.
Then again, my widest "super deep powder" ski is only 84mm, so I might be overly affectionate to skinny skis. My kids use slalom skis in powder without any apparent problems.
I sometimes feel that ski width in the 2000s is like ski length in the 1980s - association of large numbers with high performance...
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@snowdave, When I bought the Atomic 11.20s [107/70/98] in around '03, they were considered a wide Freeride ski - and so they were, compared to Old School "Straight" skis. It's all to do with what you're used to, I suppose.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Fri 7-08-20 17:06; edited 4 times in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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In my opinion there is a difference between skiing off piste and skiing in powder ... and many of us struggle with the latter. While quite boring I would suggest some time with an instructor in the powder, and if you are doing this spread it over a few half days, since falling over a lot is quite exhausting ... then consider the width, length and shape of ski you need.
For the record I use Salomon XDR 88’s at 179. I weigh 83kg and am 6’ tall. I love these skis because they help me carve and hold an edge on piste without scaring me, but have a shovel that helps float in the powder, and seems to help me with everything in between.
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| snowdave wrote: |
| I sometimes feel that ski width in the 2000s is like ski length in the 1980s - association of large numbers with high performance... |
+1 and I also feel folk are missing out by not skiing a decent piste ski on piste with good enough technique to use the edges appropriately.
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| kitenski wrote: |
+1 and I also feel folk are missing out by not skiing a decent piste ski on piste with good enough technique to use the edges appropriately. |
^This^
If you can do this then you can use the same ski in lots of different situations and snow conditions 'cos your technique is good. Head Magnums or Rossi Long Turns will cover it. All mountain skis are disappointing all over the mountain!
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Kastle MX83 in a 182cm. Back for 2021 with a lighter tip and a 3mm wider tail for a tighter turn radius. Should be about 18m. Narrower Kastles will generally flatter your poor inputs but as you get better they will give back. Mortals cannot outski them, they are rock solid and at 17st you need a damp ski for carving.
I echo the sentiments of people that say they wouldn't go over 80mm ish for carving. Historically I wouldn't have recommended much above 72-75mm to learn on but the MX83 will work for someone who is used to a longer natural turn shape from fat skis and it still works as an AM ski.
The Dynastar 16Ti mentioned above got rebranded as the Master SL. At 67mm and 13m radius it's the ski I was going to buy to slot in under my own 2015 MX83s for hardpack use and was recommended to me for BASI L3 training. It has an excellent reputation but I can't help thinking that it might be too much of a shock to someone who's skied on 108mm+ for many years and can't already carve.
You should consider the effect of turn radius on your progression. It's easier to learn carving on a longer turning ski, say 16-18m turn radius than it is on a slalom ski at 11-13m IMO. You can always tighten the turn on a longer turning ski by pushing harder and/or increasing the edge angle but you can only increase the turn radius on a stiff slalom ski by flattening the edge angle. So a slalom type ski doesn't really work if the goal is to learn good carving technique and you also want to go hooning all over the mountain on it as a seasonnaire.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Raceplate, Interesting - so they are going back to the MX 83 - which I assume replaces the 84?
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| Raceplate wrote: |
The Dynastar 16Ti mentioned above got rebranded as the Master SL. At 67mm and 13m radius it's the ski I was going to buy to slot in under my own 2015 MX83s for hardpack use and was recommended to me for BASI L3 training. It has an excellent reputation but I can't help thinking that it might be too much of a shock to someone who's skied on 108mm+ for many years and can't already carve.
You should consider the effect of turn radius on your progression. It's easier to learn carving on a longer turning ski, say 16-18m turn radius than it is on a slalom ski at 11-13m IMO. You can always tighten the turn on a longer turning ski by pushing harder and/or increasing the edge angle but you can only increase the turn radius on a stiff slalom ski by flattening the edge angle. So a slalom type ski doesn't really work if the goal is to learn good carving technique and you also want to go hooning all over the mountain on it as a seasonnaire. |
I didn’t realise my Dynastars had such a good rep - I think I paid about 250 fully mounted from Ekosport!
My wife’s carving improved immensely on slalom skis vs GS. I can see a logic for why less grabby skis should be easier to learn on, but I think for early stage carving, the advantage of an SL is that it’s very obvious to the user when the edges engage whereas the more progressive engagement of a GS ski is a little harder to detect at lower levels. My wife much prefers her SL vs GS skis for piste skiing.
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