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Please look uphill before pushing off on piste ...

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Hard to know if this is a trend, or just a random experience, but back from a 3-week trip to the 4 Vallées one thing stood out - how often people would push off from standing without looking uphill. It was particularly noticeable with small groups, where by the time the forth person pushed off (without looking) the whole situation uphill from them had changed and they were basically skiing right into the path of others.

Cue the usual 'It's the job of a skier to be able to stop safely and handle changes of direction etc. in their path.' Yes, fine. And I'm the first to be annoyed by people who try to ski an FIS Downhill through the middle of a busy Green Carrefour at the Weekend.

And I admit to forgetting this myself on a couple of occasions: it's easily done, especially if you're with others and trying coordinate your route and destination. But these have been lapses - it's obvious that for quite a few people, the concept of looking uphill before launching is alien - surely, it's worth it, just for self-preservation?
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Rule 5

Quote:
The FIS rules are comparable to international road traffic regulations. Every skier and snowboarder should be aware of these FIS rules in order to protect yourself and others from potential dangers and to avoid accidents on ski slopes.

1. Respect for others
A skier or snowboarder must behave in such a way that he does not endanger or prejudice others.

2. Control of speed and skiing or snowboarding
A skier or snowboarder must move in control. He must adapt his speed and manner of skiing or snowboarding to his personal ability and to the prevailing conditions of terrain, snow and weather as well as to the density of traffic.

3. Choice of route
A skier or snowboarder coming from behind must choose his route in such a way that he does not endanger skiers or snowboarders ahead.

4. Overtaking
A skier or snowboarder may overtake another skier or snowboarder above or below and to the right or to the left provided that he leaves enough space for the overtaken skier or snowboarder to make any voluntary or involuntary movement.

5. Entering, starting and moving upwards
A skier or snowboarder entering a marked run, starting again after stopping or moving upwards on the slopes must look up and down the slopes that he can do so without endangering himself or others.

6. Stopping on the piste
Unless absolutely necessary, a skier or snowboarder must avoid stopping on the piste in narrow places or where visibility is restricted. After a fall in such a place, a skier or snowboarder must move clear of the piste as soon as possible.

7. Climbing and descending on foot
A skier or snowboarder either climbing or descending on foot must keep to the side of the piste.

8. Respect for signs and markings
A skier or snowboarder must respect all signs and markings.

9. Assistance
At accidents, every skier or snowboarder is duty bound to assist.

10. Identification
Every skier or snowboarder and witness, whether a responsible party or not, must exchange names and addresses following an accident.


https://www.pitztal.com/en/winter/ski-resorts/fis-rules
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@LaForet, Agreed FIS Rule no. 5: https://assets.fis-ski.com/image/upload/v1536910200/fis-prod/assets/en_FIS_Rules_for_Conduct_and_Environment.pdf

Quote"A skier or snowboarder entering a marked run, starting again after stopping or moving upwards on the slopes must look up and down the slopes that he can do so without endangering himself or others."
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yup noticed this more and more in my past 2 trips, sadly I think it's people not taking lessons/not getting the basics explained to them!
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Not sure which I find worse. Those who don't look or those that do but set off regardless of what they see. The second I think... Puzzled
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A couple of weeks ago I was overtaken by a fast skier making smooth wide carved turns. He looked impressive, BUT as he overtook me, the shape of his turn cut right across my path forcing me to make a much sharper turn to avoid him. By this stage I was the uphill skier, so my fault if I had hit him. If I had been someone a little less in control, then it could have been messy. He was clearly a good skier, but an inconsiderate one.
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The one that gets me is the kid (it is invariably a child) who turns off the piste then hutles back onto it usually diagonally without looking straight in front of me.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
It may be age related grumpiness but I reckon I see more idiots of all kinds on the slopes every year.

My particular bug bear is the skier skiing way too fast for the conditions, i.e. clearly would be unable to stop in time to avoid any obstacle, moving or not, if needed.

Without generalising too much (!), the profile round Chamonix is typically male, early 20s, Scandinavian, on piste on skis wider than 110m.
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I have noticed this more and more.

I guess, because we are still relatively new to skiing (since 2016) we still have the good instruction we received fresh in our minds. I always check up hill before setting off. And if in any doubt, give it a moment till it's quiet anyway.
The amount of skiers (and it is mostly skiers) who set off without looking and then it's your fault if you go too close to them....or worse...
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@johnE, as you clearly know that it'd be a reasonable assumption, that a child turning off piste is likely to come back on without looking , why do you continue on a trajectory where it's going to be an issue?

What they're doing isn't right but I'd rather alter my course, than argue rights from a hospital bed.
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@adithorp, Yes but they still shouldn't do it.
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See it, particularly with groups, all the time. First *may* check, but not always. The rest will then just go without looking at all, cos it surely must be clear, cos the first one went.

Seen it with lesson groups too. Tutor didn't look. Therefore, neither did the entire class.

Uphill skier seemingly has right of way these days too.

It's the straightliners that get on my nerves the most. Speed is not a measure of skill. Control is.
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under a new name wrote:
...on piste on skis wider than 110m.

Blimey they're big skis Smile
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
queenie pretty please wrote:
A couple of weeks ago I was overtaken by a fast skier making smooth wide carved turns. He looked impressive, BUT as he overtook me, the shape of his turn cut right across my path forcing me to make a much sharper turn to avoid him. By this stage I was the uphill skier, so my fault if I had hit him. If I had been someone a little less in control, then it could have been messy. He was clearly a good skier, but an inconsiderate one.


Nah - he hadn't safely passed you so was still responsible. Still no good arguing rights from a hospital bed.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
I had an instructor do this in front of me earlier in the season. I was able to miss them pretty comfortably, as I'm always conscious of watching others, but he made no effort to look at people up-slope and just pulled out right into the path I was heading down.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I remember being taught this in group lessons many years ago.

Definitely got worse of late.

Either people aren’t taking lessons, its not being taught , or (I suspect this is the case) people are more self-centred/self-absorbed / less courteous in considering the impact of their actions on others. A reflection I feel of more recent attitudes.
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Re the OP

Happens all the frikkin time. Worst with classes and "groups" skiing together. Passed such a group on Sunday who decided to set off just as I was passing. I skied to the margin of the piste making short turns to let the crazies clear out and still had one on them heel skidding right on my shoulder so I couldn't just stop. Well maybe I should have and just dropped my shoulder to bounce him into next xmas if he failed to navigate me?
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I think that speed should be limited on Greens and Blues where you are most likely to encounter new or cautious skiers. This would require some sort of ski patrol.

Its all very well knowing that you can literally schuss from top to bottom without stopping, and you being confident you would be able to stop if need be - but its not fun for the person trying their best to ski who suddenly gets "wooshed" past.

Snowboarders in particular seem to like to "scrape" down behind people and turn at the last possible moment to avoid them.

Its particularly galling on large wide motorway blues when there is no reason at all for the fast/competent skier/snowboarder to go anywhere near the poor gibbering soul that is me!
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Quote:

under a new name wrote:
...on piste on skis wider than 110m.

Blimey they're big skis

A fairly wide piste
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I’m a bit surprised that people need to be taught to look before they set off. That said, people seem to wander into the road while staring at their phones so maybe some people are just accidents waiting to happen.

Given that, I generally assume that people will do the dumbest possible thing and ski accordingly.
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queenie pretty please wrote:
A couple of weeks ago I was overtaken by a fast skier making smooth wide carved turns. He looked impressive, BUT as he overtook me, the shape of his turn cut right across my path forcing me to make a much sharper turn to avoid him. By this stage I was the uphill skier, so my fault if I had hit him. If I had been someone a little less in control, then it could have been messy. He was clearly a good skier, but an inconsiderate one.



This is something that one needs to be aware of if you ski the "slow line fast" and set high edge angles. When I started skiing this way more when I got to grips with "shaped skis" I had a few near misses of this type. I've since become much more careful which is why I said in the "what do you think about when your skiing" thread that I am often trying to work out where skiers behind me will now be - it's exactly to avoid doing what that fast skier did to you. I'm not saying I always get it exactly right* but I do take responsibility for reducing the risk of this sort of scary moment.

*I actually had a little moment a couple of weeks ago. It was a wide piste and not busy but a guy just missed me from uphill as I carved across the piste. In my defence he was practically straight lining on a monoski - definitely more his fault than mine!
The guy evidently had a lot of risk appetite because he then managed to overtake my fast and skillful mate who going full chat on a winding, narrow and firm red run!
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under a new name wrote:
It may be age related grumpiness but I reckon I see more idiots of all kinds on the slopes every year.

My particular bug bear is the skier skiing way too fast for the conditions, i.e. clearly would be unable to stop in time to avoid any obstacle, moving or not, if needed.

Without generalising too much (!), the profile round Chamonix is typically male, early 20s, Scandinavian, on piste on skis wider than 110m.


Generally choosing to do laps on Pierre a Ric around 4PM?
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
They do it increasingly on motorway junctions too. Just head onto the road leaving drivers on the carriageway to brake to keep a safe distance. Especially annoying when the road behind is empty for half a mile.
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Arno wrote:
I generally assume that people will do the dumbest possible thing and ski accordingly.


This.

Which means that on busy blue or green runs I slow down a lot. (It's funny - on blue runs lots of people ski faster than me, on red and black runs - far fewer. Where are those heroes??)

There was a busy blue run last year where the skier stopped below me had a particularly good trick. I took a look and decided to go behind him (he did not look like the kind of skier who would set off backwards, and his tips were already slightly pointing down rather than perfectly across the piste, so it was a safe bet). However, I hadn't counted on the fact that there was ANOTHER stopped skier just below, perfectly hidden by the first one, facing the other way, who of course decided to start skiing right as I was one yard away. This was a moment when skiing reasonably slow and in control paid dividends - I was able to avoid the hidden skier, maybe with a slightly narrower margin than I'd have liked, but still well clear.

That said, I think we also have to consider that some of us may, at times, not be perfect. I try to steer well clear of slower skiers when I do go fast, and I haven't run into anyone in over 20 years (and the only time before that happened very slowly, in a complete whiteout)... but last time I skied I did have a moment where I rejoined a run a little too close to a snowboarder, whom I hadn't seen coming, despite looking up. I shouted sorry, he waved his hand so it was ok.


Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Thu 13-02-20 13:34; edited 1 time in total
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Yep, people haven't got a clue and ski resorts seem to think that publishing the FIS Rules somewhere on the piste map, whether it be the paper version or the big signage, means that have done their ar5e covering effectively. There is only one way of defending yourself against this and that is to chose to avoid the pistes altogether or go to less popular resorts at less popular times. I think about it all the time and do what I can to minimise the risk like stopping below pylons or well off to the side. Even then I had a guy (a skier) go over the fronts of my skis at approx 50mph recently - half a metre to the left and I wouldn't be typing this, well, maybe with my tongue.

Ski resorts and 'tourist police' need to get heavy but they won't for fear of losing business, yet I'm told that the majority of serious injuries are collisions. If it happens to me, and assuming I'm able to react, I'll be treating it no differently from an assault on the streets and I hope my ski buddies will too.

Also, ask an instructor when was the last him he/she talked about the FIS Rules to a class. To save you the bother the answer is very very few and sometimes they are the worst culprits, stopping large classes in daft places and snaking down in such a way to effectively blank off the entire slope.

The industry still seem to think the answer is a helmet but it isn't is it? By the time your helmet comes into play, the offence has been committed.

People do tend to blame snowboarders but in my experience they are moving slower and they are aware they have a blind side. Some skiers are moving far too fast for their ability and the grooming and equipment is making it possible. They are a big danger - being bumped into at 10mph by a boarder is far different from being wiped out by a skier at GS speeds. Bumps - bring back bumps. The bigger the better.
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This year, I was skiing down a narrow and reasonably steep connecting piste, that joined a much wider Red, that was quite crowded. As I approached the exit onto the main Piste, I was aware that someone close behind me was skiing very fast (it felt like I was being aggressively tailgated so I'd move aside).....certainly faster than me. Due to the number of people on the wider piste and the narrowness of the mouth of the connecting Piste, I was worried that it was all going to end badly.

I kept as far right as I could and luckily there was enough space for me to ski uphill on the wide piste and come to a stop, allowing the human cannonball to exit the narrow gap, where he narrowly missed a couple of skiers coming down the wide Red. He was not in control and not a good skier.....just inconsiderate, arrogant and dangerous.


Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Thu 13-02-20 14:56; edited 1 time in total
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@Old Fartbag, exactly what I am describing!
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horizon wrote:


There was a busy blue run last year where the skier stopped below me had a particularly good trick. I took a look and decided to go behind him (he did not look like the kind of skier who would set off backwards, and his tips were already slightly pointing down rather than perfectly across the piste, so it was a safe bet). However, I hadn't counted on the fact that there was ANOTHER stopped skier just below, perfectly hidden by the first one, facing the other way, who of course decided to start skiing right as I was one yard away. This was a moment when skiing reasonably slow and in control paid dividends - I was able to avoid the hidden skier, maybe with a slightly narrower margin than I'd have liked, but still well clear.
.


I've done exactly the same - down the bump run to Nasserein at the end of the day. In that case my avoidance move given that the hidden skier pushed straight out across the run meant skiing over his tails (couldn't go the other way I wasn't the only bit of traffic they were running out into) and I think wrecked in surprise.
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You know it makes sense.
I'm not sure what most people are doing when skiing because very few seem to be thinking about what's happening around them, I gave a friend and his daughter a right bollocking a couple of years ago when both skied from a red but not steep pitch onto another run, it was debatable who had right of way but that wasnt my point neither looked and in fact I dont think either even noticed the other piste, I said had someone been coming down at speed it would have ended very badly, one of the first things I taught my kids and wife was to stop right on the side and never just below a brow, while you can never avoid all the idiots skiing well beyond their ability you can take precautions
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
skimummk wrote:
I think that speed should be limited on Greens and Blues where you are most likely to encounter new or cautious skiers. This would require some sort of ski patrol.

Its all very well knowing that you can literally schuss from top to bottom without stopping, and you being confident you would be able to stop if need be - but its not fun for the person trying their best to ski who suddenly gets "wooshed" past.

Snowboarders in particular seem to like to "scrape" down behind people and turn at the last possible moment to avoid them.

Its particularly galling on large wide motorway blues when there is no reason at all for the fast/competent skier/snowboarder to go anywhere near the poor gibbering soul that is me!


Over the years I've noticed this more and more. On busy runs packed with nervous beginners, people tearing down them, trying to show what a hero they are. Skiing is all about appropriate speed for the situation. Why can't these big heros find a quite black run somewhere and show off there ? Answer is probably that they're not actually up to it.
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jedster wrote:
queenie pretty please wrote:
A couple of weeks ago I was overtaken by a fast skier making smooth wide carved turns ...as he overtook me, the shape of his turn cut right across my path ...

... When I started skiing this way more when I got to grips with "shaped skis" I had a few near misses of this type. I've since become much more careful...


Competent snowboarders have had that issue for a few decades.
You particularly have to watch for straight lining skiers or snowboarders.
It's easy to deal with, but you do have to assume that those other people will not respect whatever "rules" you may think are appropriate.
That's not how people are.

.. Which brings me back to the OP.
That's not how people are. Expect people to do just about anything, and you'll be fine.
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@jedster, That very thing as well.

In contrast, earlier in the season I was skiing reasonably swiftly down Pierre a ric when a bloke absolutely screamed past me in a straight line. I had to forgive him however, as he had immaculate style, complete control and had (I am guessing) an ENSA trainers jacket on (or at least an ESF trainers) as there were half a doz trainee ESF and UCPA groups on the hill, all led by folks in the same jackets - so I thinking ENSA most likely.

ENSA being the Ecole Nationale de Ski et Alpinisme, and the folks ultimately responsible for managing curriculum and QA for French trained instructors. A joy to behold.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I noticed it quite a few times, always skiers, at red mountain this year. I saw a skier nearly take the head off of someone at Niseko last year on a green run, going at a fait clip veered to find a really well formed side hit and got a really nice air, but skis at head height within inches of a learner on piste.
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ski school snakes are worse for this.
like Be Nice please! cyclists & bus drivers. act like they own the road
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
This happened to me several times a day, each day of our visit to Hinterglemm last week. Agree the worst are those that do look up, see you coming, then set off regardless. I take the same approach as driving in the UK - I assume that the car waiting to pull out in front of me will do so, and adjust my speed accordingly. Its Thatcherism at its worst !!
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A couple of days ago at the top of Luz Ardiden, having stopped to water the daffodils, I was straightlining it down a blue road (on an alpine board) focusing on the route ahead (trying to catch up with my pals), and a slightly faster skier comes up from behind me to come alongside me and starts shouting at me in French.

I just so happened to have my ear-cosy/headband on so couldn't really hear him that well, but my first thought was "Oh, oh! A piste monitor is telling me off for going too fast through the previous area and ignoring the ralentissez sign".

I then realise he's saying something like "Is the XYZ piste via the left fork up ahead, or on the right of it?", and so my second thought, when I realised it wasn't a monitor, was "Fricking hell, I'm not going that slow? Surely!", so I shout back, in the last few milliseconds remaining, "Well', I'm going left!", and he says "Ok!". And off he goes - right - none the wiser...

Puzzled
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andy wrote:

Seen it with lesson groups too. Tutor didn't look. Therefore, neither did the entire class.


Pretty much every day I ski I see instructors with large groups set off without any of them (even the instructor) looking up the piste just before they set off. When I spot a ski school group stopped I give them as wide a berth as possible. A couple of seasons ago I had to hit the brakes very hard in the PDS when an ESF instructor led a group of about 15 whooping kids from the trees at the side of the piste (where they weren't visible) straight onto it with no regard for who might already be on the piste or indeed any regard for the safety of their pupils.
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
horizon wrote:
Arno wrote:
I generally assume that people will do the dumbest possible thing and ski accordingly.


I haven't run into anyone in over 20 years (and the only time before that happened very slowly, in a complete whiteout)... but last time I skied I did have a moment where I rejoined a run a little too close to a snowboarder, whom I hadn't seen coming, despite looking up. I shouted sorry, he waved his hand so it was ok.


It was a snowboarder, it wouldn't have counted.
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A lot of skiers generally are pretty selfish and have no awareness of others around them.

I skied in a group with a woman once who constantly cut across people and had no idea she was doing it. We all quickly learned to either ski off and leave her behind, or hang back. It wasn't too long before she completely wiped a guy out and injured him - and didn't even bother to stop and see if he was OK (which he wasn't) and said it was his fault (it wasn't). I think someone eventually told her she was a dangerous skier which she denied, and left the group.

I'm always nervous on busy pistes because people simply pay no attention to what anyone else is doing - and you can guarantee people who aren't as good as they think they are will straightline through everyone.
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The piste , is very similar to our roads, there are fools, clueless , inconsiderate etc. Lets imagine you are the model skier or driver , who obeys the rules , maintains a correct speed etc. I would guess most people on this forum the model skier or close to.

We do need to try and anticipate the actions of the fools, clueless , inconsiderate etc.

I rent cars and ski a bit, I think there is a correlation between lack of piste manners and lack of road manners in certain countries
Put it like this, if a young guy in overtakes on bends, drives up someones ass etc, what kind of skier is he ?
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