Can anyone offer their insights or recommendations for suitable touring ski's for steep and narrow gullies?
I've currently got a really light set up with a pretty narrow ski (78mm waist) that I find comfortable skiing most terrain, but it's getting a bit old and banged up and I want to update it. I also haven't had much experience skiing steep (above 45 degrees) and narrow chutes so I don't have much personal insight as to what kind of ski's are preferred in those situations - thinking in terms of jump turns, or side slipping if things are dicey...
I've been looking at the Ova Freebird. Anyone have any insights into this ski? Is 85mm underfoot considered too narrow for the type of skiing I'm talking about?
Any advice appreciated.
Cheers
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I’d look for something at the short end of the range for what you normally ski, medium-stiff to stiff flex and a fairly straight sidecut
Width is a bit personal taste. I’d probably go for something in the range of 95-105mm under foot
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@icantdance, just get skis you enjoy skiing. As long as they’ve got some edges, your technique is good and you’re not skiing on ice you’ll be fine. I’m skiing steep slopes on a 124mm waisted DPS Alchemist and no problems. As per Arno’s comment don’t go too long for steep and narrow as agility more important than straight line stability.
@Arno, a pair of Legend Pro XXLs should do it then!
@icantdance, unless you are only skiing in Scotland or similar I would tend go a bit wider - 95-100mm underfoot. Personal choices at the moment would be the Ronde 96 or R.98 (now discontinued but older models available still I believe) from Whitedot Skis or the Camox Freebird or similar from Black Crows. If you don;t want to jump up to wide the Orb Freebird could be a good option.
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@BobinCH,
Quote:
I’m skiing steep slopes on a 124mm waisted DPS Alchemist and no problems.
Would have thought they were great when it's soft but personally I'd prefer the edge closer to the sole of my boot if the couloir was firm or icy, no?
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After all it is free
jedster wrote:
@BobinCH,
Quote:
I’m skiing steep slopes on a 124mm waisted DPS Alchemist and no problems.
Would have thought they were great when it's soft but personally I'd prefer the edge closer to the sole of my boot if the couloir was firm or icy, no?
I suppose at least there is little risk of the boot hitting the slope first when it gets really steep! (as might happen in the good ol' days). I wouldn't have called a 124mm wide plank a touring ski either.
Still things have evolved from when skiers used 2 meter plus straight skis with 65mm underfoot.
Simon (offpisteskiing) is probably best qualified on this forum to give advice about steep couloirs but I currently ski 170cm skis (I'm around 177cm), 88mm wide with minimal rocker. I would add that torsional rigidity and a wider turn radius ski should give better edge hold. Oh and good edges and construction. Not too heavy if touring, you don't want to arrive to ski the couloir with bambi legs due to the climb and you want something you can maneuver. Given the shitty snow we get these days a slightly wider ski isn't a bad thing.
Of course technique is more important.
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@offpisteskiing, I’ve still got those XXLs if you want them
Although they don’t meet the “shorter end of the spectrum” advice
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jedster wrote:
@BobinCH,
Quote:
I’m skiing steep slopes on a 124mm waisted DPS Alchemist and no problems.
Would have thought they were great when it's soft but personally I'd prefer the edge closer to the sole of my boot if the couloir was firm or icy, no?
The steep stuff in Verbier is North facing so no ice. But even top of Bec des Rosses which is above 50 degrees was still fine when scalped at the top. Not saying it’s the ideal ski for a tight steep gully, just that even a ski that wide seems to cope fine so not sure it’s necessary to pick a ski specifically to specialize in those conditions given it’s likely to be a minority’s if the skiing. And for sure don’t go that wide for touring.
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I would be more worried about what binding to use as opposed to what ski....
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
The Lhotse couloir is 50-60 degrees and was skied on Blizzard Zero-G 95's skis. Jim Morrison used Dynafit Superlite 2.0 12 bindings and Hilaree Nelson used Salomon MTN's. Both with the toes locked out.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
What are you skiing now - Atomic Backland UL 78?
I'd try renting a wider pair of touring skis to see how you get on with them before moving up in width.
Can you live with extra weight? if so how much?
Other skis I'd consider that are similar in width (and probably weight) to what you have now are -
@BobinCH, Sorry to hijack this tread… Have been considering DPS Alchemist Lotus 124 to replace Volkl 100eight ones that I had for the past 3 seasons. I never clicked with them. How is your impression of DPS? Thank you!
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@Engelberg, LOVE them. Sized up from 112 Hybrid Wailers and enjoy the extra width and pop of the 124 Alchemists and can still ski them anywhere. I also had a pair of 193 Volkl Shiros before that but the DPS are just so much easier to ski. I also have a pair of Blizzard Rustler 11’s with Shift bindings which are also great but I’d always take the DPS on a soft snow day.
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@BobinCH, Great, thank you! Final step is to choose the size. Probably 185cm, as I am 180cm and 71kg.
Not sure (because of the weight and 25m radius) it would work as an everyday touring ski. Seen them on the web for €750 (ski only without binding). I find it difficult to lay out that sort of money without testing first - anyone know if testing Black Crow skis is possible?
@BobinCH, Great, thank you! Final step is to choose the size. Probably 185cm, as I am 180cm and 71kg.
I’m 180cm, 85kg’s and on the 1st generation 185cm’s. The 2nd gen is a bit stiffer so at your weight the 178cm is probably long enough unless you ski really fast. A friend of mine (a bit shorter and lighter than me) got the 185cm 2nd gen and wishes he went shorter.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
DB wrote:
@kedsky,
Good call. Certainly a great ski to have in the quiver for shorter tours with steep descents.
Not sure (because of the weight and 25m radius) it would work as an everyday touring ski. Seen them on the web for €750 (ski only without binding). I find it difficult to lay out that sort of money without testing first - anyone know if testing Black Crow skis is possible?
Agree. I’d reckon this is good for very steep stuff only (like north face of midi). Would be a handful for normal skiing. You can test Black Crow in Chamonix.
@BobinCH,
Is that different from something like the older mantras?
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
If height wise you're in the 6' (183cm) range, I'm advertising some Countdown 104's. I skied three of the couloirs at Vars on a good snowy day and they performed confidently.
I've got a brand new pair of 186cm R98 Whitedot Carbonlites c/w QK's drilled for Dynafit touring bindings, hotboxed and waxed ready to go, never been skied, bought new start last season. Open to offers, realised pretty soon after buying i'll never use them, I prefer wider skis.
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jedster wrote:
@BobinCH,
Is that different from something like the older mantras?
Not skied an old Mantra but possibly similar. That BC ski above seems to have some rocker and is lighter than a Mantra but on really steep and hard you want a straight edged, stiff ski. Not a ski that is much fun anywhere else IMO. I mean how often is the mere mortal jump turning 60 degree couloirs?
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icantdance wrote:
Any advice appreciated.
Cheers
Straight-line chutes*, then you don't have to worry how well the ski turns!
*You didn't say it had to be good advice!
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Quote:
I mean how often is the mere mortal jump turning 60 degree couloirs?
never but I don't think that is the test is it?
Mantras are fairly long radius so quite straight, stiff with strong edge hold and have been 95mm to 100mm ish waist. Lots of decent skiers have found them to be a great do anything ski. Two of my mates have used them for everything including powder, trees, gulleys for a few years and love them.
I was reacting to this:
Quote:
Would be a handful for normal skiing
Anyone who is competent enough to think that they are going to be skiing a bunch of couloirs would not find a ski like this difficult for normal skiing
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
jedster wrote:
Quote:
I mean how often is the mere mortal jump turning 60 degree couloirs?
never but I don't think that is the test is it?
Mantras are fairly long radius so quite straight, stiff with strong edge hold and have been 95mm to 100mm ish waist. Lots of decent skiers have found them to be a great do anything ski. Two of my mates have used them for everything including powder, trees, gulleys for a few years and love them.
I was reacting to this:
Quote:
Would be a handful for normal skiing
Anyone who is competent enough to think that they are going to be skiing a bunch of couloirs would not find a ski like this difficult for normal skiing
Fair enough. I’m always looking for untracked snow and don’t ski fast enough to enjoy a stiff ski in untracked conditions. But you’re right for all round use for a good skier I’m sure it works well. I had Dynastar Legend Pros back in the day. Great skis in chopped up conditions but sunk like a submarine in anything untracked and remotely heavy/wind blown. Personally I now prefer lots of rocker, width and some sidecut and find good modern skis still manage fine on steeps.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
The OP was talking about a really light 78 mm ski - most likely something like the the Atomic Backland UL 78.
To jump from the Atomic UL 78's to Black Crow Solis or Mantra (which are almost twice the weight) to ski tour every day I suspect could be too big a jump.
Compared to the Atomic UL 78's almost anything is stiffer and better for steeps.
@DB, agreed but I think we left the touring debate some way behind with the inclusion of 124mm waist skis!
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Fwiw @Markymark29's R98 CL would be a fine choice for the OP's brief although 186 might be a bit long both for jump turns in couloirs and uphill kick turns. I have R108CL in 186 and I'm ~176cm tall. I use them for lift served and day tours but would prefer the 179s if it was purely for touring. I'd also prefer to be on 98mm rather than 108mm when the couloir got polished or icy.
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@BobinCH,
Quote:
Personally I now prefer lots of rocker, width and some sidecut and find good modern skis still manage fine on steeps.
makes a lot of sense for soft snow!
But why does sidecut really matter for that? You're more pivoting and drifting than carving aren't you?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
jedster wrote:
@BobinCH,
Quote:
Personally I now prefer lots of rocker, width and some sidecut and find good modern skis still manage fine on steeps.
makes a lot of sense for soft snow!
But why does sidecut really matter for that? You're more pivoting and drifting than carving aren't you?
I think it still helps turn initiation, although as you point out, less than on a hard surface. I’ve not really bonded with the straighter skis I’ve tried
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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jedster wrote:
@DB, agreed but I think we left the touring debate some way behind with the inclusion of 124mm waist skis!
Really, I missed that. After all the black crows Solis are (freeride) touring skis and touring skis can go up to 124 mm waists
https://www.skatepro.at/96-34138.htm
@DB, agreed but I think we left the touring debate some way behind with the inclusion of 124mm waist skis!
Really, I missed that. After all the black crows Solis are (freeride) touring skis and touring skis can go up to 124 mm waists
https://www.skatepro.at/96-34138.htm
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
To come back to the original question of skis for steep and narrow gulleys, this is what some of the best current French steep skiers use (you'll need to find the equivalent 2020 models, especially the White Doctors which probably don't exist now given the death of Eric Bobrowicz).
Paul Bonhomme: White/Dark Doctor LT 10, 130-98-120, 23m radius
Thierry Clavel : Dynastar Vertical Eagle, Lignes de cotes : 118-87-106, 20m radius.
Yannick Boissenot : Black Crows Navis Freebird, 133-102-118, 19 m radius. For big tours he uses Blizzard Zero G 95 but finds the Navis more stable. For hard snow he also has the Black Crows Solis.
Common factor is : minimal rocker, straight skis that are rigid so have plenty of edge hold and are stable.
Really, I missed that. After all the black crows Solis are (freeride) touring skis and touring skis can go up to 124 mm waists
You can stick touring bindings on any skis but
BC web page on Solis does not contain any mention of touring. Of course you COULD tour on them. To describe them as touring skis is stretchy.
124mm waist skis for touring could be perfectly sensible for pure powder touring but that is a bit of a tiny niche in Europe. Try traversing neve on skins with your heels free on 124mm waist skis. A poor idea. Spend a night in a mountain hut in March and see how many people are on >110mm waist skis or even >100mm skis. Very, very few.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Here is the solis complete with pin binding. I assume the ski is designed for short hikes by someone who is extremely fit.
Reality is almost no one needs a ski like this and most of those that do aren't posting here. I imagine they are selling very few of them. Most of the BC sponsored skiers seem to use the Navis or Corvus for midwinter steep skiing and the Orb for longer climbs.
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After all it is free
Quote:
Here is the solis complete with pin binding. I assume the ski is designed for short hikes
Me too. After all a lot of steep skiing requires a bit of skinning and/or boot packing for access. But I wouldn't call it a touring ski given the construction.
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jedster wrote:
BC web page on Solis does not contain any mention of touring. Of course you COULD tour on them. To describe them as touring skis is stretchy.
124mm waist skis for touring could be perfectly sensible for pure powder touring but that is a bit of a tiny niche in Europe. Try traversing neve on skins with your heels free on 124mm waist skis. A poor idea. Spend a night in a mountain hut in March and see how many people are on >110mm waist skis or even >100mm skis. Very, very few.
The BC Solis is a touring ski aimed at steep skiing. It has a 100 mm waist.
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jedster wrote:
You can stick touring bindings on any skis but
Yes, both my ski touring setups are all-mountain skis with touring bindings on them. More weight but better downhill performance although the performance gap is getting smaller.
jedster wrote:
BC web page on Solis does not contain any mention of touring. Of course you COULD tour on them. To describe them as touring skis is stretchy.
124mm waist skis for touring could be perfectly sensible for pure powder touring but that is a bit of a tiny niche in Europe. Try traversing neve on skins with your heels free on 124mm waist skis. A poor idea. Spend a night in a mountain hut in March and see how many people are on >110mm waist skis or even >100mm skis. Very, very few.
Yes, in March of this year on a hut to hut tour I skinned up to 4500m+ with 98mm waisted all-mountain skis that are 5cm taller than I am - wouldn't want to go any wider or heavier.
Often touring skis are discussed here but it ends up evolving into a talk about wide freeride skis that no one in their right mind would use on a long tour.
I suppose one day a snowhead will end up trying to do a hut to hut tour on a pair Alchemists after following advice on here.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Thu 24-10-19 12:33; edited 1 time in total
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