 Poster: A snowHead
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veeeight,
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Everyone has to take responsibility of their own actions, in my view. When you encounter the signs put up by ski patrol, it's your responsibility to interprete how that warning may apply to you. Sorry to be so harsh.
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Not harsh; quite sensible. As for run grading, if it's red I know with reasonable confidence that it will be harder than a blue and therefore I'm more likely to enjoy the run and it will present no difficulties at the level I'm at, similarly with a Black I know it will probably be harder for me than a red and I may have some difficulty but probably manage it.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| veeeight wrote: |
Here in WB I know of several "Blues" that will qualify as a European Black................ |
Is that an Italian black?, or a French black?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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RobW, Which is the steeper?
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Runs are all graded according to the mountain. there isn;t an international recognised standard as far as I;m aware. Lots of blues in Fernie were quite difficult, and to be honest some of them should probably have been graded black diamond. I'm sure no-one has ever found a resort where runs in certains sectors have been upgraded / downgraded to get the right "colour balance", i.e. "yes we have a blue run down to resort level" and "yes we have a good precentage of 'advanced' pistes"...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Frosty the Snowman, As far as I'm aware the French is steeper, at least that's how they appeared to me. I don't know the officla protocol on this.
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I was told when we first went skiing, that the Italians gdrade the pistes in relation to the others at the top of the same lift. So the easiest one would be green, hardest black, etc. It also bore no relation to the difficulty of the pistes at the top of the next lift, it simply meant easiest way down to hardest way down. So some blacks would be really easy, some blues really difficult.
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I have noticed, generally, that if I and 'Jo Bloggs' have skied a variety of resorts and discuss them, then that resort that Jo Bloggs has gone to that I haven't, almost always seems to have a steeper, bumpier, more icy run than any of the resorts that we have both been to...?
More people seem to use the grading system as form of 'Ego Collateral' than as a measure of what they could/should ski well or not. For most I speak to, skiing a black is synonymous with having arrived - as is skiing fast. Last week I upset a slightly less experienced skier in our group one evening by suggesting that he shouldn't confuse skiing fast with being a good skier - he did not seem to get that skiing down the black fast in 'semi-control' did NOT make him a better skier than the person who got to the bottom 30 seconds later having turned where they wanted and having been in a position to stop or turn wherever they wanted or needed regardless of gravity and the 'slipery slope'.
Grading is so tied to perception and feelings of accomplishment that until such stage as people start classifying runs according to a standard set of criteria, comparison based on current gradings is almost meaningless.
You would need something like he following at the top of each slope:
Steepest gradient - take it over a 10 meter vertical section
Average gradient - One short steep section isn't a problem, you can just go straight and slow down later 
Average width - Yep, more space to traverse and avoid others is easier regardless of gradient
Length - A 500m run that is steep is far more manageable than a 1000m run of the same gradient
Days since last Pisted
Snow grading - Fresh, packed, icy etc.
That should give everybody a means of comparing what they can/cannot manage pretty soon ...
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agavin, I totally agree about the "I've skied a black run" stage. It's one that most people seem to go through, probably because when you first start skiing, you view it as the ultimate achievement on skis, although most people do seem to get past it, and to the stage where the colour of the run is irrelevant, far more important is whether you enjoy it or not.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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How many snowheads realise that one mistake at low speed on a groomed trail with no warnining of adverse conditions could have such serious consequences? I certainly didn't, and I suspect that there are literally millions of other similarly ignorant skiers out there.
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ummmm- this sort of goes with the off-piste thread surely....
Having worked in a snow area base hospital a few times I AM VERY aware of the sorts of things that happen.... the air ambulance and ground ambulance kept trotting in with the results.... I claim this is one reason I am such a control freak when i ski ..... I do NOT want to be the body on the guerney thanks all the same!
However with enough experience people start getting these ideas without needing to work in a hospital or being friends with the poor Fitzwilliams that have to drag the mangled pieces back.... In the 10 years of regular skiing a Chamonix valley local would do they would be sure to get the idea of what MAY happen.... these sorts of ideas are part of understanding the need to be diligent - this makes the learning experiences part of off-piste more obvious... the "why you need to pay attention to fred the 50 years experience skiing guide" (not quite but you get the idea)
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| little tiger wrote: |
From my home resort trail map
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The trail signs used at xxxx are the standard trail marking system used internationally. The symbols
and colours indicate the relative difficulty of each trail. Bear in mind that this is relative difficulty only,
and applies to the area in which the sign is found.
For example, a blue “more difficult” or black “most difficult” trail near yyyy Chairlift may well be steeper than
trails with the same markings at other parts of xxxx or in other resorts.
The signs are a guide only.The most sensible path to follow is never take anything for granted. If you don’t know a
trail, treat it with caution. |
my bolding
I was under the impression that this is the system used everywhere - ie there is NO set standard for a "green" "blue" "red" "black" etc run anywhere.... it is simply an indication that that run is easier/harder than another in the same area of the same resort... |
they are relative gradings folks... stop trying to compare them between resorts/continents whatever.... i
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| saxabar wrote: |
| Frosty the Snowman, As far as I'm aware the French is steeper, at least that's how they appeared to me. I don't know the officla protocol on this. |
there isn't one!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Helen Beaumont wrote: |
| I was told when we first went skiing, that the Italians gdrade the pistes in relation to the others at the top of the same lift. So the easiest one would be green, hardest black, etc. It also bore no relation to the difficulty of the pistes at the top of the next lift, it simply meant easiest way down to hardest way down. So some blacks would be really easy, some blues really difficult. |
yaaaaaay we have a winner!
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| little tiger wrote: |
| little tiger wrote: |
From my home resort trail map
| Quote: |
The trail signs used at xxxx are the standard trail marking system used internationally. The symbols
and colours indicate the relative difficulty of each trail. Bear in mind that this is relative difficulty only,
and applies to the area in which the sign is found.
For example, a blue “more difficult” or black “most difficult” trail near yyyy Chairlift may well be steeper than
trails with the same markings at other parts of xxxx or in other resorts.
The signs are a guide only.The most sensible path to follow is never take anything for granted. If you don’t know a
trail, treat it with caution. |
my bolding
I was under the impression that this is the system used everywhere - ie there is NO set standard for a "green" "blue" "red" "black" etc run anywhere.... it is simply an indication that that run is easier/harder than another in the same area of the same resort... |
they are relative gradings folks... stop trying to compare them between resorts/continents whatever.... i |
And thereby, IMO, lies much if not all of the confusion. How can you accurately judge whether you have the ability to do a particular run if there is no standardisation and no empiral information? It's hardly any wonder that people end up on slopes they can't handle if there is no yardstick against which to judge. Talk about moving goalposts
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You know it makes sense.
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If they took the lessons though they would be taken to suitable terrain.... and advised what terrain was Ok to ski on their own..... or at least that is what my instructors do.... with a bit of experience you get a bit better at picking what you are able to do....
if you think you don't need the lessons - well i was once told this
"when you have good stance and balance on a black run you are ready to start to learn to really ski" .... i think I'm nearly there.....soon I can start learning 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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eng_ch, there is a kind of standardisation in that if the easiest run isn;t actually very easy, it will be graded blue - and if it's actually quite hard it may be that the "easiest" run is graded red (or black diamond)
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Poster: A snowHead
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| little tiger wrote: |
| If they took the lessons though they would be taken to suitable terrain.... and advised what terrain was Ok to ski on their own..... or at least that is what my instructors do.... with a bit of experience you get a bit better at picking what you are able to do.... |
And when you get to a totally new ski area? When you're out almost every weekend, it's not financially viable to pay an instructor to be a guide every time you go somewhere new (although I don't dispute the utility) and besides, if I'm having a lesson I want to work on technique above all, and correct what's wrong.
We take lessons every time we ski, but even if the instructor says "oh you can manage piste XYZ", I would still like to have clearer information on what I may be likely to encounter - width, gradient etc. If people have never been on slope that is, for argument's sake, more than 20 degrees with an instructor and free skiing they encounter one that is 25 degrees, they might think twice about trying it; if they're both just marked as blue they are likely to think "I can do blues", go for it and might get into trouble
| little tiger wrote: |
if you think you don't need the lessons - well i was once told this
"when you have good stance and balance on a black run you are ready to start to learn to really ski" .... i think I'm nearly there.....soon I can start learning |
This I would tend to agree with. It's like the saying that you don't start to learn to drive properly until after you've passed your driving test
Edited to sort out my quotes
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sat 25-03-06 21:23; edited 2 times in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| nbt wrote: |
| eng_ch, there is a kind of standardisation in that if the easiest run isn;t actually very easy, it will be graded blue - and if it's actually quite hard it may be that the "easiest" run is graded red (or black diamond) |
Switzerland and Austria don't have green runs. So a blue can be anything from a totally flat track to "red" gradient. How is a inexperienced skier supposed to know?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I've never skied austria or switzerland so I was unaware of that fact. However, the only real asnwer is "suck it and see". I'm now happy enough to look at a piste map and set off, knowing that for instance Ill have to work if the piste I'm aiming for is black, while if it's blue, I might find it less of a challenge. I got that way bny skiing what was in front of me rather than worrying about whether I'd make it down that blue piste and deciding to do another blue piste instead - just ski. if you find it hard, go back and do it again. Make yourself attack the bits that worry you (I mean ski agressively, not fast - they're not always the same). You only get better byt doing stuff you;re dont really comfortable withm, until you get to a point where it's comfortable - and it's time to move on.
"do one thing every day that scares you" - well I've been doing that for a few years and in whistler I scared myself a damn few times, but *touch wood* I flew home in one piece, by not necessarily looking at the whole piste butinstead just concentrating on the skiing the next half-dozen turns as well as I could,
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eng_ch
many resorts have guides
many locals will show you on the trail map which runs are harder than others
ice/snow still softens in sunny areas the same all around the world (the sunny direction changes though)
if you are heading off-piste and don't know the area - should you be?
I learn technique in lessons - buat also get a run down on suitable terrain.... athough they are getting a bit vague these days!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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nbt, I'm afraid that still doesn't quite work. Y'see, at our local place every blue run has bits with gradients that a beginner or low intermediate simply wouldn't get down except head first or on their backsides. But when we were beginners, we'd look at the piste map for where we were thinking of going (weekends) and think "OK, it's got some blues, we can manage that". You're supposed to push the comfort zone, not scare yourself s***less 
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so you live in switzerland where they don;t have greens, only lbues, but every blue runs has bits that beginnners can;t ski?
not seeing that somehow...
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| nbt wrote: |
| if you find it hard, go back and do it again. , |
can't agree....
practice makes permanent.... so continually skiing stuff too hard makes it very hard to shift the bad habits you have cemented into your skiing style....
perfect practice makes perfect
that is why the Italian ex-wc racer i had lessons with told me that good skiers need to go to easy terrain to practice technique and LEARN.... he insists you cannot learn on harder terrain - you practice on the easy stuff and then go and try some harder stuff....
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little tiger, the point I'm getting at is judging your own ability. Yes you can always use a guide or instructor, but that's someone *else* judging your ability. And people get into trouble when they fail to match their ability to the piste. Part of that is inaccuracte judgement of their own ability, and part is imo a lack of sufficient information to judge the piste.
To pursue the car driving analogy, you aren't going to spend your whole life driving with an instructor next to you, you can't realistically book an instructor to help you judge the roads whenever you go somewhere new. But there is at least some standardisation of the type of roads you are likely to drive: motorway, A road, winding B road. You more or less know what you are going to encounter. Yes, occasionally you'll hit the Paris peripherique, or an unmetalled chalk road in Italy, but by and large the rough standardisation of road types means that by the time you encounter these roads, you have built up the experience and miles elsewhere to be able to use your driving technique to handle them. And you haven't been avoiding unknown roads because you don't know whether it's a single road with passing places or a massive wide motorway. In other words, accurate road labelling helps you to gain experience with some confidence so that when you do find something more challenging you have the tools and experience not to be fazed.
JMHO.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| nbt wrote: |
so you live in switzerland where they don;t have greens, only lbues, but every blue runs has bits that beginnners can;t ski?
not seeing that somehow... |
Every blue run at our local resort has bits that I don't think a beginner could ski. But going by the piste map they might be tempted to try
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Sat 25-03-06 21:26; edited 1 time in total
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| little tiger wrote: |
| that is why the Italian ex-wc racer i had lessons with told me that good skiers need to go to easy terrain to practice technique and LEARN.... he insists you cannot learn on harder terrain - you practice on the easy stuff and then go and try some harder stuff.... |
I'm with you there. Or as my violin teacher used to say, "if you practise your faults long enough, you'll perfect them"
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| eng_ch wrote: |
little tiger, the point I'm getting at is judging your own ability. Yes you can always use a guide or instructor, but that's someone *else* judging your ability. And people get into trouble when they fail to match their ability to the piste. Part of that is inaccuracte judgement of their own ability, and part is imo a lack of sufficient information to judge the piste.
To pursue the car driving analogy, you aren't going to spend your whole life driving with an instructor next to you, you can't realistically book an instructor to help you judge the roads whenever you go somewhere new. But there is at least some standardisation of the type of roads you are likely to drive: motorway, A road, winding B road. You more or less know what you are going to encounter. Yes, occasionally you'll hit the Paris peripherique, or an unmetalled chalk road in Italy, but by and large the rough standardisation of road types means that by the time you encounter these roads, you have built up the experience and miles elsewhere to be able to use your driving technique to handle them. And you haven't been avoiding unknown roads because you don't know whether it's a single road with passing places or a massive wide motorway. In other words, accurate road labelling helps you to gain experience with some confidence so that when you do find something more challenging you have the tools and experience not to be fazed.
JMHO. |
actually when i was growing up and learning to drive Highway ONE (the main highway around australia) was still unsealed for many kilometres.... full of bulldust holes and wombat holes .... the longest unpopulated stretch was about 500miles unsealed with one petrol station in the middle at Sandfire Flat.... the entire Nullarbor section(about 1500km) was unsealed(two petrol stations a few bores and a hut though).... Halls Creek section unsealed.... and the section through to Mt Isa from the northern territory side was also unsealed....
OH -so was the road to Cooktown... (Port Douglas is that direction - now a big resort then a petrol station a store etc)
I was taught to drive according to conditions and I was expected to spend quite a bit of time with an experienced driver beside me - so i could gain experience in varied conditions.... i was also restricted in my maximum speed for the first year of my licence and also unable to consume ANY alcohol.... I was also under much stricter leeway on traffic violations for the first three years of my licence... I could not do many "bad things" and still drive as i had a limited number of points I could lose....
I drove on highways that were almost catttle tracks... and "roads" that consisted of the tracks a few other vehicles had made in the grass.... (directions were "turn left at rusty water tank")...
Most skiers I know though would have a few lessons at best and then moan they did not get told the conditions accurately
1) Did they ask? Anyone? (ok in france I have had trouble finding patrol occassionally but locals were in abundance).... case in point in argentiere I made the point of checking with a "semilocal" -an american ski bum who had spent seasons there - each day.... On one day he sent us to a specific resort because of teh prevailing conditions.... while the majority of people staying in the same place and being served food by the same guy came back snarling about the conditions - we had a good day - and my ski companion was a very intermediate skier.... why wouldn't i ask? I have been taught to ask EVERYONE what is happening - surfing or skiing the same idea pervades... check it out...
2) Did they drive solo after only a few hours of teaching? or did they have a LOT of practice before going solo in car?
For some strange reason most people seem to think they are able to learn everything they need to know in a week of 2 hour group lessons ....while the instructor trainers I know are continually in clinics :confused:
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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It is recommended that a Learner Driver has at least 120 hours of driving experience in all conditions before they attempt a licence tests.
ummmm - if we translated that to 120hours of accompanied skiing what do you think people would say?
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| eng_ch wrote: |
| little tiger wrote: |
| that is why the Italian ex-wc racer i had lessons with told me that good skiers need to go to easy terrain to practice technique and LEARN.... he insists you cannot learn on harder terrain - you practice on the easy stuff and then go and try some harder stuff.... |
I'm with you there. Or as my violin teacher used to say, "if you practise your faults long enough, you'll perfect them" |
yeah - 'tis true too.... 
My instructor trainer friends hate people being "over-terrained" .... they claim ego building does nothing for skiing technique....
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You know it makes sense.
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hang on I just found this
Ski Gstaad - Facts
5 Black Runs
15 Red Runs
24 Blue Runs
23 Green Runs
250Km Downhill
100Km Cross Country
20 Ski Lifts
2050m Max Vertical
3000m Highest Lift
950m Lowest Piste
1000m Resort
I see green runs listed
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| little tiger wrote: |
It is recommended that a Learner Driver has at least 120 hours of driving experience in all conditions before they attempt a licence tests.
ummmm - if we translated that to 120hours of accompanied skiing what do you think people would say? |
Well, only if you have to pass a test to ski!
Not sure where you got those recommendations from, but it wasn't the DVLA or IAM.
But, using your logic, that would mean that after 120 hours of lessons, you would never take another one again.
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Poster: A snowHead
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actually we retest certain drivers too....(old ones)..... and they were babbling about extending the retests to everyone just before I left.... everytime there are some road deaths they look again....
That may be true of some - but some take advanced training regularly..... so it is just like skiing already....
and you have to pass a TEST at the end of it... or you cannot drive alone....hmmm - skiing skills test could be fun.....
Oh and if we are going all the way - you are not allowed near a car to learn unless you pass the tests for your learners permit....
=Pre-skiing test as well.....
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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little tiger, that may apply in some countries but not everywhere.
At what age would a skier then be required to take more lessons after their 120 hours?
What drivers do you know of who take advanced training regularly? (and remember you are talking to someone who has done his advanced driving test)
Your idea of taking lessons all the time, and rarely free skiing is not a good way to learn to ski. Good skiing comes with mileage - time spent skiing on your own, after taking lessons. In the same way that in some parts of the world, drivers put up R plates, or P plates, to let others know they have just passed their tests, and these plates may have associated restricitons - but it allows the driver to gain experience ON THEIR OWN.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I don't think that I'm winning this argument, but I'll try again.
Most contributors seem to believe that skiers should accept pretty much all the responsibility for skiing safely. It seems that resorts should have no duty of care to advice punters what conditions runs are in or even to disclose with any accuracy how difficult their trails actually are. Any skier who's less than an expert but dares to have the temerity to ski alone, or who perhaps struggles to pay for 120 hours of lessons, is to be sneered at for being too stupid to know that they weren't up to it or too poor to dabble in a rich man's sport. If they kill themselves, then they've done the human race a favour by removing some dangerous traits from our collective gene pool.
Look at the reality of the incident I described at the start of the thread. I'm not an inexperienced skier and I'd skiied that run previously with total control and, if I may flatter myself, even a little panache. On the morning concerned I turned into it expecting to repeat my previous enjoyable experiences. By the time I realised that it was actually a treacherous ice sheet, it was too late to turn back. What else could I do but tackle the run with great caution? My ignorance of local climatic conditions placed me into an extremely dangerous situation - surely it's not too much to ask that someone in the know could have tipped me off.
Here's my genuine appeal to all you big clever guys out there who never make any mistakes: what must I do to be as wise as you? So far I've learned that I can't choose my runs by colour because easiski says that colour doesn't mean anything. I can't ask other skiers which black runs are safer because that'll make easiski, Mike Lawrie, David Murdoch and others snigger at the stupidity of my question. Little Tiger thinks that I'm unfit to ski on my own because I've not yet had 120 hours of lessons; at least that's constructive advice, if a little expensive.
I humbly aspire to reach the awesome standards that you all set - if I survive that long. In the meantime, I'm grateful to resorts like Panorama that - with the one notable exception I've described - make a genuine effort to communicate with their customers. And I genuinely hope that none of the 'it's all the skier's fault' gang ever rise to a position of a authority in any ski resort that I ever visit.
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| Jonny Jones wrote: |
Little Tiger thinks that I'm unfit to ski on my own because I've not yet had 120 hours of lessons; at least that's constructive advice, if a little expensive.
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umm no actually I don't - I was just carrying eng_ch's driving metaphor through for her....
she wanted standard pistes because the roads are standardised... I was pointing out a) they're not and b) you need lessons and licences to drive that are NOT required to ski.... so are we going to go the whole hog and make it all the same? .... hmmm I even need an international licence to ski overseas and it only lasts 3 months then I need to do the local thing
Read my post re the asking the locals bit.... I tend to yabber at people a bit - even when i don't speak the language.... this can have complicated consequences - like the proposal from the old guy in the hotel in Livigno that I stay there and marry his son  (son makes great coffee though so maybe I should)
Anyway - I do .... in fact we blame Mum - because my brother did it too....
mostly though it is handy to tend to do this... and my surf coaches and ski instructors all encourage chatting to people about the snow etc... the even suggest I make an effort to do this if I do not know the resort... you would be surprised how helpful locals can be re simple stuff like which runs you should try first and how different ones will compare..
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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That 120 hours thing probably is fair actually... unless they sort out green/blue gradings to be consistent and actually suitable for 1 and 2 week holiday skiers then I would say no one with under 3 or so weeks (90 hours of accompanied skiing by my reckoning) should be doing their own route planning without guidance from more experienced friends or insturctors etc. Certainly all my truly serious mistakes were made in those first few weeks as we didn't have anyone to help us (students trying to ski on the cheap).
The realisation that not all blues are created equal and that just because you have skied _A_ red doesn't mean you can ski all reds should have sunk in after the first few weeks and once you get to the point all blue runs are doable (not fun maybe, but doable) and you have worked out when/why ice and moguls form you can get out and about safely and suss out the terrain for yourself by working out relative gradients etc. Until that point ask around, on here, at your hotel, the rep, the folks on the lifts or hire a guide for 2 hours on the first day and follow their advice! I still don't often ski reds without some idea what they will be like and I almost never commit to a black without knowing something about it before I start - I've been skiing over 10 years....
I do however think we could do with a grade between green and blue (also why blue and black for gods sake, do anyone elses goggles render blue poles nearly black??) of 'easy blues' for people to progress onto. Howabout a lovely cyan, or lilac (like les arcs does)?
aj xx
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I'm sorry Jonny Jones but your story does come across as your overconfidence combined with your lack of experience got you into trouble, rather than any fault of the resort. You say that you're not an inexperienced skier, but looking at your profile, I'm guessing ten weeks skiing in total at this point, which I'm afraid doesn't make you an experienced skier IMO.
You were overconfident because you thought that because you had skied the run previously in good conditions, you had the skills to ski it in any conditions, and your lack of experience shows in that you didn't take into account the fact that conditions may have changed.
If the run you chose had been marked as an easy run in the resort then you may have more of a case, but it wasn't, it was marked as a black - for experts only.
I don't think that any of us haven't made any mistakes, but rather than blame them on the resort, I would suggest that we learnt our lessons from them.
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Kramer, you're about right on my experience or lack of it - I chose my words carefully by saying that I'm not inexperienced rather than claiming to be experienced. And despite my level of experience, I honestly would have got down that icy run without falling 99 times out of 100; given the nature of the Panorama's terrain, black runs (note that this was only a single diamond run) are hard to avoid and I didn't avoid them. Whilst there, I skied many steep, icy and bumpy runs, and I fell only a handful of times in 10 days skiing. But in other places, a fall didn't matter because there was a safe run-off, bumps or soft snow.
There's a world of difference between something being difficult and it being dangerous. I'm well up for the former, but, with three kids to look after, I'm much less keen on the latter than I might have been in my student days. I don't think that I exposed myself to significant danger at any other time in my trip - by that, I mean that I didn't knowingly put myself in a position where an error of judgement or a fall could result in a damaging injury. For me, a 1% risk of injury is too high a risk to take and I did research the run before skiing it - it was described on the grooming report as 'Groomed, good, hard packed'. I obviously made an error of judgement, but that error was too easy to make.
I don't believe that it is acceptable or responsible for runs that could result in serious injury to be opened without warning to the skiing public. You obviously do. And, with that attitude, if you ran a ski resort I wouldn't visit it.
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I believe that by marking the run as a black (even if only a single diamond), that is a fair warning that it could result in serious injury.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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You're right about there being a world of difference between something being difficult, and something being potentially dangerous, that tends to be the difference between red (or blue in the USA) and black runs, IMO.
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| Quote: |
| Most contributors seem to believe that skiers should accept pretty much all the responsibility for skiing safely. |
Basically Yes and I would agree. Snowsports are Mountain Sports, you have to know your ability and be able to make your own judgement of conditions and whether you can cope.
Just because a given run or lift or even ski area is open doesn't mean you have to ski it or that the conditions are suitable for you. It's up to the individual to make the decision whether to ski or not. Just because Mr X doesnt want to ski in a blizzard, doesn't mean the lifts should be shut and deny Mr Y and so on. This is something that really irks me, and I got a good dose of it at Kirkwood on Saturday with esp parents with kids wagging their fingers and saying that the chairlifts should not be running in such wind and/or white-out conditions. Yet there were plenty of people more than happy to ride in todays weather to get fresh tracks and enjoy the freshies.
I have skied the Wall at Kirkwood when the hard ice warniings are out and it's been groomed and with smooth snow and sharp edges had some decent runs and went back and did it several times. I have skied on rockhoppers with blunt edges and wondered if I'd get out of the Cas Gunbarrel alive on CairnGorm! Equipment also plays an important part, and maintaining it and knowing what condition your equipment is in can also be important.
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