Too steep to groom?

A snowHead

as an alternative to all this press-up business, get yourself a pair of these:

just remember not to stab yourself with it when you fall wink

A snowHead

Look quite useful for lift queues as well.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

My wife took a tumble in Les Arcs last year,landed quiet painfully on the top of her ski pole,only winded,but thought she had cracked a rib at the time,just glad she didn't have those poles!!

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I would think they would produce a fair few extra thumb injuries. Excellent weapons though.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Slightly off topic, but don't you think part of the problem is easy" blacks? I regularly get asked where's the "easy" black cos the folks want to say they've skied one! Shocked

if there were no easy blacks, surely no-one would go there unless they were capable and a lot of grief would be saved. Puzzled

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I managed to slide over a large number of bumps at les Arcs this Jan. Wasn't much fun as they bloody hurt when you bounce over them hehehe. Although it felt longer it was probably only 8 to 10 moguls I went over. Made me wish I had an ice axe in my hand though Puzzled

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easiski, ha ha. Agreed.

When I was a lad, repping round the PDS, living in an old shoe box, etc. Almost every group would ask to ski the "Wall". Much of the time I don't like the "Wall". Over-rated, over-skied and very risky on account of the number of twits descending upon you from above having tipped over and then sliding rapidly out of control and often bouncing painfully as they go.

So I would respond with, "Do you want to ski a run just so you can say you have? or do you really want a difficult bumps run? I can satisfy both desires (and a few others, wink, wink, nudge, nudge)." Anyway, almost invariably we'd do the "other wall" which is steeper, tougher and a lot more satisfying.

Who cares if you can (read: have done so) ski a black run? Skiing a blue run elegantly and with grace is harder and gets you more of my brownie points!

Back to the question. These days not very much is too steep to groom. Just stick a big spike at the top and link two piste bashers by a cable counterweighting each other. BUt why would you want to? (Although I assume the run in question is a US black - i.e. a European red?) Black runs should be left to develop just how they want to.

After all it is free

A long time ago in Les Arcs, there was(is) a bump run under Dou L' Homme? ARC 2000, was a chair, now a gondola, I think. A woman skier attending the same chalet/courses as me fell at the top. She just slipped over at the start of the run. She gathered speed and kept on bouncing bump to bump shedding kit and, being chased hard by her BASI 1 coach, who never caught up with her. She slid to a halt at the bottom of the run. She escaped with lots of bruises, he took her on the slope the next day, still bumps, no problems. She was a pretty good skier then, I imagine shes' a lot better these days.

David Murdoch, is that a Sunshine black or a Nakiska black? A St Anton red or a Kitzbuhel red?

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It's a matter of demand, people expect to have some steeps groomed, for some it is so that they can say they skiied a black run and for more expert skiiers it is nice to cruise on something a little steeper. Some common sense is needed by the skiier though, if the run hasn't been regroomed the night before then it is probably quite slick, especially in the spring, and should be avoided unless you are a very confident in you're abilities. If the run is truly dangerous the patrol will shut it.

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People get too hung up on piste grading - I don't know or care the grading of most runs I do as I can assess their difficulty to me by looking at them. If a nicely groomed black suddenly turns into a mogul field then it might be a bit of a surprise but I know I'll cope as that's what I expect may be possible with blacks. Is the British obsession with what colour runs you ski not just a bit pathetic?

I do like the approach you see at some US resorts which grade lifts e.g. "this lift serves no easy terrain", "Experts only" etc. OK its a bit overly flattering as expert may be overstating things but on that lift you should not be surprised to find no pisted runs, deep and/or variable snow, cornice chunks etc. You still get some clowns who end up hiking back up to the lifts and downloading presumably because they can't read or overestimate their ability as "black run skiers".

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Maybe. I haven't often overheard the French discussing colours of runs but maybe that's because they can say the names. Don't get me wrong I find it useful to have the indication on a piste map as it helps to identify the relative steepness of terrain in parts of a unfamiliar resort and undoubtedly it helps the less experienced to identify terrain most suitable for them. A badly trashed blue can be more technically challenging than a freshly manicured black so the idea that gradings are in any way anything more than relative measures within a particular resort seems absurd to me.

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

rob@rar.org.uk, I think it is a British thing. I never hear this from any of my German friends. I distinctly remember being on a chalet holiday in Verbier where a whole group of British policemen were there racking up the blacks and going on about it every evening rolling eyes

Took them up to the top of Mt.Gele and let them get on with it Laughing

Good job I don't live anywhere that falls under their jurisdiction Laughing

A snowHead

Mike Lawrie, Laughing

fatbob, you will have noticed I presume that some people have a very odd idea of what "expert" means...saw some fairly inept skiers trying to pick their way down cliffs in Utah. Highly amusing. I'm afraid that we felt compelled to inform them that they really didn't want to be there in between offering gratuitous but hopefully helpful! advice on a safe route down. We at least could see what they were heading for...

No idea what they thought they were playing at.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I do think it's more of a British thing, and I think it's bound up with this awful pub boasting business. I always tell my students (who are often made to feel quite inadequate by these morons) that anyone who feels the need to boast about skiing a black probably isn't a very good skier - the good skier will like a run for it's characteristics and probably call it by name. Ergo, the nervous novice who masters a tricky blue is doing better than the pub boasting boozing beastie!!!!

Perhaps I'm being a bit harsh? I love this tell me where the easy black is question here - answer: there aren't any (unless you count the bottom of Valentin, which doesn't really count). Shock

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Disdain for run gradings is a luxury only experts can afford.

For intermediate skiers, run gradings are an essential part of safe skiing. In North America I'll happily tackle almost any single diamond black, and, despite the incident that started this thread, I only fall once or twice a week. But I won't take on an unfamiliar double diamond run unless I can first examine its full length to make sure it's not beyond my abilitity to ski safely. If I'm not familiar with a resort, I ski by colour - first day of the trip, avoid blacks; tired legs, stick to blues and greens; feeling on top of the world, find the blacks for steeps, powder, trees and bumps.

And Richmond is right. It's too easy and too smug to dismiss the feeling of achievement that novice skiers get when they progress to a new colour.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Jonny Jones,

Everything you say is true but I'd approach it like this. I may not have the skills to ski a run as well as I would like but I would concentrate on getting the skills to navigate it safely. This means you can't cherry-pick things as such but you aquire skills and not least, the confidence to do these types of runs. I'm not sure you can learn how to ski things without, erm, skiing these things.

Most people would have to go through this escapade to get to the stage of not caring about the colour, to get the experience and nous. We've all got bitten, the trick is to learn from it. Next time you'll nail it and will not realise how much progress you have made. People can say that sort of thing is easy, maybe it is now, but there was a time for them when it wasn't. The only thing I'd say is not hide/avoid those sorts of runs because as you ski more, you'll find more and more of them IMV.

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Jonny Jones, I don't say you shouldn't consider the colour (purely as a guide - but it's a very doubtful guide given the huge differences between resorts/countries/continents, but in my experience most people who make a real fuss about the blacks are poor skiers who need to learn to ski properly before going there. (Please note I'm not saying you are one of these)

JT, is right - you can learn to ski steep without going onto steep - it's purely a matter of skiing correctly - it only seems steep if you are not skiing correctly, and yes - most of the lessons I give are on greens and yes - most of my time is spent on green. So many people book lessons because they're having a problem on steeper runs - but the problem isnt' the steeper run - it's usually a basic technique problem. Fix that and the run you want to ski doesn't seem so steep any more. You only get to be expert (and I wouldn't consider myself one yet) by hard work and application, not just by skiing.

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Yeah easiski... I nearly always spend quite a bit of lesson time on easy runs working on better technique...

the WC racer i had lessons with last week said the same thing
"You are a good skier. To improve you must ski on easy runs and practice technical skiing. You cannot concentrate well enough to learn on steeper runs"

I'm teh worlds biggest chicken Blush

- but improve technique enough and the hills start to shrink or something.... Cool

it starts getting less stressful...

After all it is free

Jonny Jones, hope the bruises don't hurt too badly..oww. sounds very unpleasant. Crying or Very sad

easiski, is La Rouge at L2A still quite a deceptive ungroomed (red) run?

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easiski, you're right about learning on easy runs. Last week a particularly able instructor rid my wife of her fear of moguls. It took three private lessons, and she didn't go near a bump until the third of these.

But that just reinforces the importance of accurate labelling of runs. I wouldn't want to deny other skiers the right to ski down vertical ice sheets - just don't let the rest of us discover them by accident.

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Miles off topic but what's a "death cookie"?

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From my home resort trail map

You know it makes sense.

little tiger, Ta - this young kids vernacular just ties me up! Puzzled

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

If it is small like marbles and just shakes the fillings out of teeth it does not count....... needs to be large enough to be able to stuff skis up.... when it is a boulder it is not a cookie anymore either.....

elephant snot is the clear stuff that stops you dead (not quite actually water but much clearer than snow snow...) when it refreezes elephant snot is EVIL Evil or Very Mad

sorry - I'm old can only do those 2....

A snowHead

Well A note pinned to the experts only sign at the foot of Chair 10 at Kirkwood not so long ago read "Hard Icy Snow! Falls will result in long slides and possible death" Shocked

A snowHead

Winterhighland, That note was pinned to the sign when I went to kirkwood six years ago!

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

edsilva, La rouge is now called l'Y, is black and is groomed once or twice a week depending on how they feel - quite hard to find, and consequently much nicer return to town on as less crowded. However, Belle Etoile, Sapins, Grande Pente and Posettes are never groomed, nor any of the bits in between them! Combe Valentin has cannons all the way from the Cretes and is groomed daily, and Le Diable is groomed about every other day.

Jonny Jones, If conditions are bad, then a green run can sometimes be harder than a black - however I still think that if conditions are likely to create ice, there's no reason for the resort to close the run (unless dangerous) or to warn people that it might be more difficult than usual, skiers must take their own responsibility - it doesn't sound as though your run was dangerous - just more difficult than normal.

little tiger, "I was under the impression that this is the system used everywhere - ie there is NO set standard for a "green" "blue" "red" "black" etc run anywhere.... it is simply an indication that that run is easier/harder than another in the same area of the same resort..." Exactly

Winterhighland, Perhaps that note should be pinned at the top of all black runs everywhere - but then no-one reads them anyway!

Our pisteurs often close the combe Valentin in late spring until about midday, as it's considered too hard and being pisted can be really dangerous, however many people still duck under the fence and try to ski it anyway, occasionally these people die. (seriously). However, even when they do open it, it can be extremely difficult to edge and get any sort of control on it, there are loads of sign saying "black, piste tres dificile, retour station tres dificile" and so on - but they are often ignored! Skullie

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Wengen stops grooming a run because someone slips on ice and dies. Les Arcs commemorates the death a non-racing racer who slipped on ice and died. Kirkwood warns skiers that if they slip on ice they might die. I slip on ice and narrowly miss serious injury. A pattern is beginning to emerge here.

easiski, there's a huge difference between difficult and dangerous. I accept that you'll sometimes find conditions on green runs where it's harder to stay upright than on a black but, I for one, have never seen a green run where one error made by a cautious skier at low speed could result in death.

All the double black runs in Panorama are roped off and have daily condition reports posted at the top. Some people might have ignored those boards but I never did. Sometimes I found runs of all grades roped off for a day or two with a warning that skiing conditions were marginal and that equipment damage might result. I never ignored the warnings and I thought that the resort was creditably honest and responsible for displaying them. I've already said that, my incident excepted, the ski patrol marked up runs with greater accuracy in Panorama than I've experienced in any other resort; perhaps this wealth of information stopped me thinking for myself.

Remember that my incident was in Canada, so I wasn't skiing their hardest run classification - it was only a single diamond black. How many snowheads realise that one mistake at low speed on a groomed trail with no warnining of adverse conditions could have such serious consequences? I certainly didn't, and I suspect that there are literally millions of other similarly ignorant skiers out there.

I find it odd that every coffee cup in Panorama carries a warning that the contents are hot, but a potentially lethal ski trail is marked on the grooming report as 'Groomed, hard packed, very good'. I find it even odder that our resident ski industry professionals don't find this odd.

Perhaps I should have entitled the thread 'Does the ski industry take safety seriously?'

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Jonny Jones, Agreed - hence our CombeValentin being closed when dangerous but open when extremely difficult (that is ski teachers struggling to even make a controlled skidding turn). However, I think this is the problem - clearly there was so much information for you - coffee cups telling you the contents are hot are the worst of ludicrous "nannying", that you did indeed stop (to some extent) taking responsibility on yourself. Sorry I still don't see it.

I don't know how difficult single diamond black is in Canada (bit like our reds I imagine?), but nonetheless I still think it's incumbent on skiers to take responsibility for themselves and to inform themselves about conditions. the fact that many don't doesn't automatically mean that the ski resort should, and of course if it did the resulting increase in lift pass prices would cause a major outcry! Shock

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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

easiski, I agree It is upto the skier top decide what is safe for them or not. If once on the slope and the condidtions get beyond the skill of the skier there is no shame about stopping and walking/side sliding down.
I got court out on a slope this Jan in Les Arcs. I should have thought for a second what "BON SKIER" was in English NehNeh

but all I did was look down the slope thinking ohhh nice and went for it. It was only the second part behind the rise that was very difficult (at my level) I got down it ok as did the rest of my group, by going very slowly and stopping to pick the next short route.

I would hate to think that the choice of route would be taken out of my hands because the resort had to make all slopes very safe for every level.

After all it is free

Again, in Lake Louise, many of the runs were marked at the top as having 'marginal conditions'. As it wasn't a good snow year, we had already skied some of them because there was not much else to ski. We crossed onto the 'marginal run, and I've never seen moguls so big in all my life!!! They were the size of picnic tables. Fortunatley not too icy though. My hubby and kids were in front of me, and because i'm small, I couldn't see them over the bumps at the other side of the piste. I did feel a sense of achievement when i got to the bottom though.

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Help!!

Too steep to groom?

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