 Poster: A snowHead
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Wear The Fox Hat, I think I have done something along those lines on particulalrly steep, rocky and icy slopes. In those situations I sometimes use what I think is a kind of bastardised stem turn; a sort of glorified snowplough in which the uphill ski is moved into a snowplough postion and weight transferred onto it. Seems to work, and while not what you'd call stylish, it doesn't look too undignified.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| eng_ch wrote: |
Sounds like what I was taught as a "power slide", particularly for steep pitches - initiate the turn as usual, but somewhere past the fall line, rather than completing the carved turn, tip the skis onto their flats to change direction to move down instead of across the slope, thereby losing height, then engage the edge again as you want to make the next turn - good way of losing height and controlling speed, but takes some guts to start with. But hardly the flailing "fling yourself round 180 degrees" that Easiski was describing  |
I don't think what you're describing is bracquage. What I've been taught is a series of linked, side-slipped turns, which don't have any pause or stem in between the turns. Steering of the ski is done only by foot/leg rotation, with no control using your ski edges whatsoever. It's a useful drill, and quite tricky to get right if you try to steer with your shoulders rather than your feet (which is what I think easiski was describing).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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rob@rar.org.uk, why would you not want to use your edges when turning?
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Well tehcnically you always use your egdes - if you didn;t then you'd never turn. but this technique is used to alter your line without the forward momentum that usually comes when you get a good egde grip
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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richmond, bracquage is a drill (I suppose it might be useful in very limited circumstances), and it's good for practising steering your skis by foot/leg rotation. I don't think I've ever used pure bracquage to steer skis when I've been free skiing, but I would say that all of us use foot rotation as part of our skiing every day (usually blended with the other two steering techniques).
nbt, it's perfectly possible to turn without using your edges: it's called bracquage If you use your edges it makes bracquage more difficult.
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It is very relaxing to turn by just tilting you feet in your bootsand performing a gentle carve. I think there will always be some automatic knee flexion when you do this. Almost sends me to sleep and I feel strangely in control and contented
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Frosty the Snowman, isn't that exactly what you're supposed to do (not go to sleep, tilt your feet and carve perfectly)?
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richmond,  well yes I suppose so. I mean no up and down, no pole plant no hip movement, just stand in your normal ski position and tilt those feet.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| richmond wrote: |
| rob@rar.org.uk, why would you not want to use your edges when turning? |
1. restricted space
2. speed control
3. just because you can
(for me, turning a ski is about having a variety of methods available to me, and choosing the most appropriate one for each turn, or series of turns)
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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You know it makes sense.
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richmond, I didnt mean to do it ALL the time 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Yeah up and down is considered a bit out of date now.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| wrote: |
| Yeah up and down is considered a bit out of date now. |
Just remember it all comes around again eventually so you could be ahead of your time .... way ahead 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Nick_C,
Yep, don't worry about it, use it if you need it. If you learnt old school and adopt new school you have more ways to skin the cat.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Braquage is a drill for pivoting and/or foot/leg rotation.
Although it may sound like what easiski was describing hapless folk coming down the hill, when this drill is done properly, it does not involve any upper body movement. So no swinging of the shoulders nor hips. Just turning those femurs.
Up and Down (or Flex & Extend) is still used in early stages of learning by means of flattening the ski or returning to neutral. However as your skiing advances we try to change this into moving the CoM across, rather than vertically up and down.
It's useful to keep a variety of tools/techniques/tactics in your toolkit for all round skiing.
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... including an electrical screwdriver
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| nbt wrote: |
Indeed, "eegreck" is how the french pronounce the letter "y" - literally translated, it's greek "i", as opposed to a "I", and it would be spelled "I grècque"
| easiski wrote: |
| As already explained this "technique" involves a completely flat ski on a steep slope (ice is optional). The "skier" then flings their entire body around 180 deg until they're facing the other way. Their edges never touch the snow, they continue down the hill in a more or less vertical descent, merely changing the direction of their ski but never, never their direction of travel. |
Well, on my Dave Murray Camp, we spent a few pistes practicing this technique - our instructor called it "Braquage", although I may have the spelling wrong. In essence, it's sideslipping but without traversing the slope - useful for just losing a little height in rocky areas etc was the reasoning, I think
*edited to add french pronunciation and spelling* |
Correct - thought a phonetic spelling would make it easy for peeps.
Braquage is not at all the same - it's a controlled exercise for foot pivoting and edge control - these people (if you didn't read it) are usually doing about 40kph on a steep black and ARE TOTALLY OUT OF CONTROL - there are lots of these, and you should nto try to excuse them by confusing their total lack of skiing ability with an advanced exercise. 
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Apoligies for rant, but it's late and these peeps frighten me to death - they should not be on a black run at all! (Whatever the conditions and in all liklihood would not pay any attention to posted warnings!)
I agree, extension can still be used, but in any case is now a pressured extension to ease the initiation of the turn for less experienced skiers - it's a slow movement, not at all like the "pop" we used in the old days. As veeeight, says, you later convert the movement into a more progressively lateral one.
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| easiski wrote: |
| I agree, extension can still be used, but in any case is now a pressured extension to ease the initiation of the turn for less experienced skiers - it's a slow movement, not at all like the "pop" we used in the old days. As veeeight, says, you later convert the movement into a more progressively lateral one. |
Following a train of thought here - presumably since you are meant to be moving all the time when you're skiing anyway, there will inevitably be flex and extend in your legs otherwise you would be skiing with stiff, instead of soft, legs? So it's all a question of direction, not the movement itself? I realise I'm simplifying to an extreme...
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direction and timing I would have thought.....
as easiski said above slowly the old up was a "pop" .....
then again... learn to ski in canada and you can have canadians teach you to "bob" like a canadian and hunch like one too.... (I have 2 very nice canadian instructors)
The funny thing is that they ski that way in demos but not when THEY ski.... I know the bob bit well as I regularly copped flack from my other instructors for having developed the canadian bob while skiing with the canadians..... To save the grief we had to decide that from then on the canadians would refer to "long" for when they wanted that extension and we would no longer do "up" and "down" .... (they can do this as they DO ski this way but have not learnt demos this way.... I try to ignore the UP part in a demo if they do it by mistake for me)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| eng_ch wrote: |
| easiski wrote: |
| I agree, extension can still be used, but in any case is now a pressured extension to ease the initiation of the turn for less experienced skiers - it's a slow movement, not at all like the "pop" we used in the old days. As veeeight, says, you later convert the movement into a more progressively lateral one. |
Following a train of thought here - presumably since you are meant to be moving all the time when you're skiing anyway, there will inevitably be flex and extend in your legs otherwise you would be skiing with stiff, instead of soft, legs? So it's all a question of direction, not the movement itself? I realise I'm simplifying to an extreme... |
It depends on what you want to achieve in the turn.
Some people talk about lower/upper body separation, for example in the case of "cross over" or "cross under" turns there will be very little up/down movement going on above the waist, and your head will be travelling almost straight down the hill, your torso will move slightly across the hill, and your legs will be flexing and extending, but only to absorb the terrain and to keep the edges engaged in the snow to make the turns.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| eng_ch wrote: |
| er, QED Even if your legs go down and your upper body is still, they are still flexing and extending so in fact flex/extend and up/down are different, albeit related at times? |
Yes. It's more of a flex/extend movement at an angle, and only involving your legs, rather than a near vertical up/down movement of the body.
(and just to add for the dogmatists, it is not the only way to turn, but it is another way to turn)
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| nbt wrote: |
| Indeed, "eegreck" is how the french pronounce the letter "y" - literally translated, it's greek "i", as opposed to a "I", and it would be spelled "I grècque" |
Thanks, NBT (and others).
So this run, in English, would be called "The Y" which is where the confusion came from - I had assumed it was the same sort of 'y' as in, eg "y-a-t-il?" or "allons y" where the 'y' is pronounced 'ee'. Hence I would have pronounced the run 'l'ee and drawn some blank looks from the locals, I guess!! 
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You know it makes sense.
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Well, contrary to almost everything that has been said - there is one turn which is ALL up-and-down and in its most extreme form quite correctly involves no carving or steering or (much) sliding and may involve coming to a full stop for a moment after each turn - and that's the jump turn as done in a steep, narrow couloir.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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snowball, very true!
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Poster: A snowHead
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snowball, for some reason I remember that type of turns very clearly!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Aha, Cedric, greetings - yes indeed. Have you put anything about the Dolomites on-line yet? I only just got back to the web a few minutes ago.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Nice photo - but did you need to draw the line down it? I can't see where else we might have skied! PS. for anyone else - the couloir was about 300 metres, top to bottom, so not as narrow as it looks.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Snowball, without the line it looks just like a scenic mountain photo - I still have the original, too!
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| Quote: |
so not as narrow as it looks
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still looks pretty narrow to me 
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By the way, going back to the original thread title, it seems to me that almost any piste is easier to ski if it has been pisted.
At les Arcs I once saw the steep top section of a black piste being groomed by a piste-basher which was being winched up and down the slope on a cable by another piste-basher sitting on the flat area at the top. The slope was too steep for the vehicle to drive up normally . Do all the machines have a winch on top? Anyone else seen something like that?
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| snowball wrote: |
By the way, going back to the original thread title, it seems to me that almost any piste is easier to ski if it has been pisted.
At les Arcs I once saw the steep top section of a black piste being groomed by a piste-basher which was being winched up and down the slope on a cable by another piste-basher sitting on the flat area at the top. The slope was too steep for the vehicle to drive up normally . Do all the machines have a winch on top? Anyone else seen something like that? |
I think only some have winches. I've seen a piste-basher use its winch with a snow anchor is order to push a vast amount of snow back up the piste: I was staying at the bottom of the blue Folyere piste in La Tania at the end of the season, and they were pushing the snow back up the mountain to keep things skiable for the last few days.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I think it was the l'Ourse run, BTW.
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