 Poster: A snowHead
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eng_ch, maybe not of how many weeks, or how many blacks they have skiied, but I think they can tell a lot about how well balanced someone is (not just in their boots, but in their overall gait), by watching them walk.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Wear The Fox Hat, yeah, but you can tell the people for whom ski boots are still a very foreign lump of plastic on their feet and those who are familiar with them - that's what I meant by experience
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Wear The Fox Hat, So your saying that skiing generally improves your balance, gait and coordination when off skis as well?
I think your right. 
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Tue 28-03-06 10:21; edited 1 time in total
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eng_ch, yes, that's part of experience too!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Nick_C, well, it's a two way thing - skiing improves your balance etc, but also if you have good balance, etc then good skiing will be easier to achieve.
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I find a lot of good skiers don't think they are very good... but how do you measure that..?
Maybe compare with what ohters ski. I find a lot of Brits are very good on flat runs and then all hell breaks loose
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The piechart is uncannily accurate to what I'd guess as people's self-image. Almost no-one who has got a week's skiing hol under their belt rates themself lower than advanced intermediate. Having skied occasionally with really great skiers I could never actually aspire to be anything more than lower advanced which I'd say on a really good day is almost able to keep up with 13 year old race kids out freeskiing.
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Personally, I hate being asked what level I am at ... it always provokes a battle between 'humility' and 'pride' ...
I can ski almost anything on-piste, and have not encountered anything in the past 2 years that has caused me to fall when trying to ski it including steep, icy and mogulled blacks. However, I really need some off-piste lessons and while I can control myself perfectly on a black, I wont carve it due to lack of bottle and the speed involved
But, when asked by a native European ski instructor or guy in a ski hire shop in Europe, who I know has probably skied as much each year as I have skied in my life, what level I am at, it is awkward becasue I know that regardless of what I say it will mean something different from their perspective. I find this very hard to communicate accurately but succinctly.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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One problem is that most ski ability charts peak too soon. The show very precise gradations of ability up to intermediate, and lump everyone else together in one homogenous advanced group.
According to the ski school last week, my wife and I are level 7 skiers on a scale of 8. But the NorAm races were being held in the resort, and, watching the racers in the flesh, it didn't take me too long to realise that there's a much bigger gulf between me and a top level 8 skier than there is in the first 7 levels put together.
How are skiers to assess themselves if the charts put together by the profesionals are so misleading? It's too easy to blame and sneer at the punters.
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agavin, I totally agree.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Jonny Jones wrote: |
One problem is that most ski ability charts peak too soon. The show very precise gradations of ability up to intermediate, and lump everyone else together in one homogenous advanced group.
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I don't reckon much to the snow and rock chart but it's not true to say they peak too soon.
They have level 7 as :
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| You are now able to link confident parallel turns and are comfortable skiing on most black runs. Steeper and icy slopes may cause you to lose a little of your style, but you are still able to get to the bottom in one piece. You have now started to get the feeling of ‘carving’ your turns and this has brought a whole new dimension to your skiing. |
This is clearly different from level 6 and in "link confident parallel turns and are comfortable skiing on most black runs" clearly represents a level that most skiers do not meet.
I'm not sure what scale you're referring to but the problem with the S&R one is pretty clear, people just self assess themselves too high.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I think a lot of self-assessment has to do with who you ski with. In the very large group I ski with in February, I'm near the top in ability. Relative to the group as a whole, I'm "advanced". Relative to other groups, especially composed of Alpine natives, I would be pretty hopeless. I've done enough skiing to know that. In any sport, I think it's quite hard for those who have dabbled to appreciate just how many higher levels of performance there are - hence the over-estimates: I don't think it's necessarily self-regard.
Also, the scales in Snow + Rock etc are presumably designed to get roughly equal numbers of their clientele in each grade. There really aren't that many poo-poo-hot skiers in the UK, and most of them probably wouldn't get their kit from S&R.
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Bl**dy filter
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You know it makes sense.
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| laundryman wrote: |
| Also, the scales in Snow + Rock etc are presumably designed to get roughly equal numbers of their clientele in each grade. There really aren't that many poo-poo-hot skiers in the UK, and most of them probably wouldn't get their kit from S&R. |
Not sure about that, I suppose it depends how many good UK skiers you expect  For myself there seems a good number of good skiers from the UK nowadays.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| ise wrote: |
I don't reckon much to the snow and rock chart but it's not true to say they peak too soon.
They have level 7 as :
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| You are now able to link confident parallel turns and are comfortable skiing on most black runs. Steeper and icy slopes may cause you to lose a little of your style, but you are still able to get to the bottom in one piece. You have now started to get the feeling of ‘carving’ your turns and this has brought a whole new dimension to your skiing. |
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A huge number of skiers reach this level. In resorts where the skiing population is comprised principally of local skiers or condo owners, possibly half of all skiers (not the Brits - we only ski occasionally!) can honestly say they can achieve this.
But there's still an enormous gulf between S&R's level 7 and those who are at the top of the sport.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Jonny Jones wrote: |
A huge number of skiers reach this level. In resorts where the skiing population is comprised principally of local skiers or condo owners, possibly half of all skiers (not the Brits - we only ski occasionally!) can honestly say they can achieve this.
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I'd like to know where the hell they are then, apart from pre- and post- season barely half the people I see on the slopes reach a standard that can be genuinely be described as "confident parallel turns and are comfortable skiing on most black runs", I reckon I can pick out those who think they are from about 400m though
The average Brit doesn't ski any more than the average French guy. A very small hardcore of committed skiers living in or near ski stations ski a lot but they're in a minority even here in Switzerland.
The fact the average skier here who skis a few days here and there and has a week skiing break is better than the average Brit is just that they've typically had proper lessons while young and can ski, and if they can't ski then they don't feel obliged to look for easy blue runs, buy blades etc, they just just do something else with their time. I've a number of colleagues who stay in and visit ski stations but don't ski in fact although they often pack the kids off into ski school.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I agree with Ise on this one. Watching people come down the Diable in Les 2 Alpes, or coming down the Combe Valentin, my estimate would be that approximately a quarter of the people on it are fully in control, able to turn and stop whereever they want. A further quarter think that they are in control, but actually aren't, are able to "turn" (the direction they're pointing in, not necessarily the direction they're travelling in), and aren't able to stop on the steeper bits, but somehow get away with it. The third quarter are similar, but don't get away with it and end up falling, and the last quarter have no control whatsoever, and are totally out of their depth.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Jonny Jones wrote: |
A huge number of skiers reach this level. In resorts where the skiing population is comprised principally of local skiers or condo owners, possibly half of all skiers (not the Brits - we only ski occasionally!) can honestly say they can achieve this.
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Yes! (particularly midweek), but I think that may only apply to North America, so perhaps the Euro-only skiers don't see it as much.
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| Kramer wrote: |
| I agree with Ise on this one. Watching people come down the Diable in Les 2 Alpes, or coming down the Combe Valentin, my estimate would be that approximately a quarter of the people on it are fully in control, able to turn and stop whereever they want. A further quarter think that they are in control, but actually aren't, are able to "turn" (the direction they're pointing in, not necessarily the direction they're travelling in), and aren't able to stop on the steeper bits, but somehow get away with it. The third quarter are similar, but don't get away with it and end up falling, and the last quarter have no control whatsoever, and are totally out of their depth. |
That sounds fairly consistent, about 1 in 4, although you're talking about being in "control, able to turn and stop whereever they want" which not only includes proficient technical skiers but the more aspirant levels of course.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I don't go on pistes where I can't turn and stop where I want. And I don't believe in falling. And that's why I tend to avoid blacks because I can't be sure of not encountering something I can't handle. Yet when I have been taken on them by instructors, they've been much more doable than I imagined.
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
Yes! (particularly midweek), but I think that may only apply to North America, so perhaps the Euro-only skiers don't see it as much.
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I was thinking of some smaller North American resorts. If you chat to people on the chairlifts in these places, you discover that a huge number - sometimes even a majority - are on day trips from the nearby towns and cities. This may be a result of North Americans having much less annual leave than Europeans - they simply don't have time for a week on the slopes so the local skiers are relatively more significant.
I can't back up my observations with any scientific studies, but I seem to see far fewer novice skiers in North America. This is particularly true when you get away from the big names like Vail and Breckenridge. Maybe a similar phenomenon occurs in Europe, too?
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Jonny Jones, I would have thought that if it did exist in Europe, some of those on here who do ski the smaller resorts would have spotted it.
Very few novices spotted on piste around Alta, but that's probably more to do with them staying on the lower part of one of the hills, and not venturing much higher than Alf's restaurant. (I would add that there are a few novice powder skiers there, but I guess you have to learn somewhere, so why not at the best...)
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Tue 28-03-06 13:04; edited 1 time in total
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| eng_ch wrote: |
| I don't go on pistes where I can't turn and stop where I want. And I don't believe in falling. And that's why I tend to avoid blacks because I can't be sure of not encountering something I can't handle. Yet when I have been taken on them by instructors, they've been much more doable than I imagined. |
whereabouts are you skiing out of interest?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| eng_ch wrote: |
| I don't go on pistes where I can't turn and stop where I want. And I don't believe in falling. And that's why I tend to avoid blacks because I can't be sure of not encountering something I can't handle. Yet when I have been taken on them by instructors, they've been much more doable than I imagined. |
I would say this is down to confidence rather that technique.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Nick_C wrote: |
| eng_ch wrote: |
| I don't go on pistes where I can't turn and stop where I want. And I don't believe in falling. And that's why I tend to avoid blacks because I can't be sure of not encountering something I can't handle. Yet when I have been taken on them by instructors, they've been much more doable than I imagined. |
I would say this is down to confidence rather that technique. |
No doubt. But it's not a problem of confidence in what I can doper se - it's more confidence in matching what I can do to what I'm likely to encounter. It's not a question of fear, but belief
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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eng_ch,
Big vote for Meiringen after a good dump......but then that can apply to lots of untouted places I would think..
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Yes, great place, there's some fine skiing off the top of the Alpen Tower as I recall although I've not been all season.
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You know it makes sense.
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ise,
Don't know the lift names, I just went as high as I could and skied straight down to the restuarant which looked up to the top, in great snow. There were only 4 tracks and a ski instructor told me I skied a good line - following the tracks - , I thought I was going to get a bollocking for doing it solo as my ski buds went down the red run. A top day!!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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eng_ch, where about is Hoch Ybrig? We saw it on the tv snow reports each day, and my dad really liked the name...but I haven't been able to place it on a map.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Elizabeth B, that's actually quite a difficult question to answer! It's probably the closest ski resort to Zurich. If you find a map of Switzerland and go SE from Zurich to Einsiedeln, then SE again into the middle of nowhere, NE of Schwyz, you'll be about right. The main villages are Unteriberg and Oberiberg, the base of the main cable car is at Weglosen, there are a couple of isolated pistes in Oberiberg and another chair that goes up into the main area from just outside Oberiberg
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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eng_ch, Hoch Ybrig is the closest place going to Zurich over 1500m. Sattel-Hochstuckli is closer (800m-1500m). The closest ski lift is probably at Bennau.
The only black run in Hoch Ybrig I am aware of is the Talabfahrt to Weglosen. The sign at the start ("for advanced skiers only") is a bit intimidating but most of it is quite flat. There is one short steep pitch that can be avoided by a path of to the side. Mind you I only ever do it at lunchtime as I always do mornings. With all the snow scraped off and a million people it may be worse at 16:30. The steep pitch is probably no worse than the steepest bit of the red run under the 6 man chair all be it with worse snow.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| nessy wrote: |
| eng_ch, Hoch Ybrig is the closest place going to Zurich over 1500m. Sattel-Hochstuckli is closer (800m-1500m). The closest ski lift is probably at Bennau. |
Yes, I know, that's why I said "resort". It's certainly not the nearest ski slope.
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| The only black run in Hoch Ybrig I am aware of is the Talabfahrt to Weglosen. The sign at the start ("for advanced skiers only") is a bit intimidating but most of it is quite flat. There is one short steep pitch that can be avoided by a path of to the side. Mind you I only ever do it at lunchtime as I always do mornings. With all the snow scraped off and a million people it may be worse at 16:30. The steep pitch is probably no worse than the steepest bit of the red run under the 6 man chair all be it with worse snow. |
Ah, I didn't know there was a path round the steep pitch. I look at that from the cable car and think, not sure I'm up to that yet - even though, truth be told, I probably am in decent conditions.
The 6-man chair - is that the Hesisbol one? We tend to go left not right off that... force of habit. I rather like Hoch-Ybrig actually, but I can think of at least 2 blues there that have some unavoidable and very red pitches and are definitely not beginners' pistes. In fact, if you look at one of the old maps up the mountain, the blues at Oberiberg used to be red.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
veeeight, is asking them what they can ski really a good question ? As a confident 12 year old beginner, I could snowplough quite happily down reds and blacks safely and in control. Said nothing about my level of skiing though.
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The initial questions are a little more probing than that. And as WTFH has said, observation. How they walk, how they click into their skis, how they stand on their skis, how they initiate their first turns.
As for the comment that there are far fewer novice skiers in NA, again, by way of a gross generalisation, skiing is seen as a sport on the NA continent, no lunchtime drinking, up on the first chair at 8am etc., whilst in Europe we tend to see much more cake and hot chocolate skiing, plus a few beers and wine at lunchtime being consumed. Once again, in the resort I am in, it's the Brits that tend to indulge in the drinking and skiing game (by way of a gross generalisation).
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You are now able to link confident parallel turns and are comfortable skiing on most black runs. Steeper and icy slopes may cause you to lose a little of your style, but you are still able to get to the bottom in one piece. You have now started to get the feeling of ‘carving’ your turns and this has brought a whole new dimension to your skiing. |
I really do take issue with the S&R defenition above! What the hell is style? What part does it play in effecient and effective skiing? 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Presumably "style" is being used as a symptom?
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| Steeper and icy slopes may cause you to lose a little of your style |
In my ignorance, I would translate that as "steeper and icy challenges your technique". But you're right, that doesn't quite compute with the previous sentence - if you're comfortable, your technique shouldn't be challenged. If your technique is challenged, by definition you're not comfortable, oder?
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eng_ch, well Hochstuckli has a hotel 
If at Oberiberg you mean the Roggen t-bar. I read here that the top steep part of the lift was deemed to be too dangerous and the lift was shortened:
http://schnee.100free.com/winter-sport.html
In general though I guess that local's places do not have to appeal to beginners (unless they also want to attract families) in the same way that holiday destinations do. I am probably not ready to take my kids to Hoch Ybrig yet although we have a ball at Flumserberg.
BTW the piste under the chairlift from Oberiberg is quite gentle although a pain to get to from the main lifts.
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veeeight, Damn, no one ever told me how to clip in correctly  I'm destined to be a lower intermediate gaper for life.
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veeeight, isn't "style" exactly what you are looking at when you are watching your students, walk, click in etc?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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marc gledhill, it's best done with a run up, leading to a clean somersault with both boots landing simultaneously in the bindings, heels coming down with a nice positive click, arms kept outstretched at the sides.
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Kramer, phew. I've been doing it correctly after all.
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