 Poster: A snowHead
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"Nick Zotov, I wasn't getting at you particularly, but this idea that all other bodies can be criticised but not the SCGB - surely it's not me that's tetchy!"
easiski, hmmm, the thing about criticism is it should ideally be both fair and constructive. The initial statements made in this thread were neither fair nor constructive, in my opinion.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I think its a bit rich for there to be such offence taken about some mild teasing & not entirely serious comments, which has at least triggered an interesting debate on the merits or ethics of powder farming, where elsewhere, in the spirit of all skiers getting along, we see it deemed perfectly acceptable to compare chalet staff to monkeys or TO chalets described as "avian flu infested slums" with the attendant implications for package customers.
The SCGB has repeatedly held itself out as the voice of the British skier, that in itself makes it fair game in my book.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Quite right Nick Zotov - I'm thinking of packing in the SCGB soon - went to JH , skied easy blues & black square runs (red runs in France), & after getting unchuffed by the rep at my standard of skiing(he was a boarder of course!!!), decided to dump the group & ski Grand Targhee, skidoo Yellowstone Park, snowcat at Togwottee mountain lodge, & sit in nice hot Springs at Granite mountain. - as for Corbet's?, well it looked pretty steep from below - incidentally, whilst sking with the green bunch, we stumbled over a steep black with good pow. in it, - the rep took ages to get one skier down who clearly was out of her depth - I mean, fancy fiddling on skiing to the skier with the lowest std in the group - !! - it hold all the rest up AND , your own sking does not improve . - I liken the SCGB reps to the TO resort guides - who just trundle round the runs on the mountain bit like the 'People helpers' in the USA. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Ah, Corbet's. do you think you'll try it soon, skiologist?
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Nick Zotov, let evolution take its course. 
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I didn't see the original post in this thread as a dig at SCGB as it concerned those following, who are not necessarily going to be members. Anyway, a couple of points...
I joined the ski club after an excellent day with a guide in Fernie. It was a tree-skiing day and one reason we chose that day was because it suited all our abilities (after seeing a timetable for the week which shows skier suitability levels). It was made clear to us that he was not supposed to give us instruction, although one or two tips were thrown our way. A great day had by all. Since then though, none of the holidays I've been on have had a ski club rep, which is frustrating to say the least!
Returning to the topic in question, I get the point about leaving some fresh for others. However, I wonder how this is going to pan out in future as powder skiing seems to be moving more towards fast wide turns on super-fat skis?
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skiologist, Your rep couldn't do anything else except take the time to bring down the poorest skier. Whether that skier should have been in the group was another matter though. However, as they were there the rep did the right thing - sorry. I do think they are like resort TO guides - they're not allowed off piste, they're not allowed to teach (shouldn't even give hints and tips), so it's just a question of joining a group for the company really.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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easiski, I thought reps were allowed off-piste?
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Me 2. They always have in my experience. Main reason I joined the club. Good chance to join a group of similar ability, make new friends and ski off piste. Also a main reason for not going to resorts that do not have a rep. A rep is a significant factor in me going to Alpe D'Huez next week. Not so much for myself, but for my regular skiing buddy. Reps do not go on glacier off-piste, of course. And they do help groups meet up with guides for days starting on glacier, ski-touring, and so forth.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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easiski,
Following your comment about TO reps (or ski hosts, I guess) not being allowed to give instruction, the TO 'host' I was with this year was asked (by a guest) whether he could give any tips - which he flatly refused to do. He explained that, in addition to being unqualified to teach, he and his ilk were under strict instructions from the local ESF NOT to do anything which could conceivably be deemed 'tuition'. Being spotted by one of the many ESF guys would mean confiscation of their lift-passes. That is a fate too serious to consider when you're there for the season primarily to ski as much as poss - even if it does mean having 'guests' dragging along behind most of the time!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I think that this post by snowbunny on the "Should I join" thread clarifies the situation regarding reps and off-piste
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=288120#288120
for those that prefer a quote than a link, it was in response to an email query from her and says
| Quote: |
| Many thanks for your email and for your interest in the repping service. The Ski club reps are insured to take skiers off piste. The off piste in this sense is the off piste area within sight of the piste. If you were requiring a full day off piste traveling further afield you would need to use the services of a mountain guide. The rep in resort already may have a day outlined whereby they would book a mountain guide for members, if not you could always ask them to recommend someone. If you haven’t already done so, you would need to make sure that your insurance company will cover you for skiing off piste. |
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
| in view of the piste |
easiski, yes I thought that was very strange comment to make. You can see the pistes of Les Arcs from the top of the Mont Pourri  - in fact you can ski miles away from the runs in big areas around the domains, and still be able to see a piste somewhere. Surely that can't be right.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Hmmmmm, it does seem like one of those ill defined clauses that can be interpreted in many different ways.
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Poster: A snowHead
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easiski, mountain guides are also mountaineers, the mountaineering bit being the bulk of the apprenticeship they do. So that is a very misleading comparison. You teach and lead off-piste, so how long was the module you did to qualify you to do that?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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easiski, I only put that quote as you had said that they're not allowed off-piste. Their own statement indicates that they are insured for a level of off-piste skiing.
This is now a general comment/rant:
What has niggled me on this thread is that it is one group of skiers belittling another group of skiers because they chose to ski a particular slope in a different way to how they would have chosen to ski it. Not that they were at fault, or had done anything reckless, just rideculed because they skiied something in a different manner (and in a manner that has been later shown to be considerate). That saddens me. The thing that I like about skiing is that you can enjoy it at any level. I cannot think of any other sport where you can get the same amount of enjoyment as a beginner as you can as you improve and where (should you so desire), you can always continue to improve. I recognise that in the eyes of this forum I shall never be considered a good skier, and that really doesn't bother me, but I don't like the idea that in the future others may feel free to ridecule me because I enjoy doing something in a slightly different manner to them? The mountains are big enough for us all.
I am not a member of the SCGB and doubt I ever will be (but then you can never say never). But I recognise that others on this forum are and for them they appear to provide a good service. Live and let live - vive la difference, or whatever is the appropriate saying.
[/rant]
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Ray Zorro, my thoughts exactly!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Ray Zorro, I still don't consider that the opening entry in this thread was trying to belittle SCGB. It seemed to me an observation made by Fatbob which he found bizarre/amusing and wanted to share/field with the rest of us.
Moreover, skiing is a human activity therefore pi**taking is a given. Have you never laughed at anyone from a chairlift, who perhaps did something extremely silly? I know I have been laughed at many times but such is life. If I see something that's funny to me then I'll laugh. Nature of the beast I'm afraid
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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easiski, no, I'm asking how long the module was that allows you to go off-piste with your clients? It's not a trick question and I'm not implying anything.
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easiski, in your own time. 
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Tim Brown, I have to work you know - and it's on the mountain, not at my desk!!!! The off piste mountain safety module is one week - not enough I grant you. There are theory bits as well. It actually varies quite a lot from country to country AFAIK (although I might be a bit out of date). The Swiss used to have to buikd a snowhole and sleep in it, the french had to build one and someone had to spend several hours in it (my friend Rodolf's sister got forgotten by ENSA), but BASI only had to know how to do it!!! The module itself is concerned mainly with where you can ski and where you shouldn't and with snowpack (digging layers etc). However, most ski teachers spend most of their time on the piste, and off piste lessons tend to be like mine, jus to the side of the piste. We would (mostly) refer people to specialists for serious off piste.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Tim Brown, the problem is that most guides are not instructors. I have found guides give good tips, but they are not as good for technique as working with an off-piste instructor such as easiski. FWIW, I think the sheer mountain experience that instructors reach by the time they make top-level instructional standard, in addition to the module, makes them a reasonable bet. It was interesting to see easiski thought the module should be longer, though. I certainly felt she was a very safe leader on the mountain.
Since this thread is about the club I thought it worth pointing out that Ski Club rep, and recent council member, John Haddon has an interesting string of qualifications.
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I used one of the free ski guides in Canada, which I think is a good system.
They tell you of thier limits no off piste no diamond runs. It was still very enjoyable getting some local knowledge from people who have skiied the area for years.
As to off piste I would always want a qualified guide with pleny of local knowledge.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Nick Zotov, taking that a little further, I would have thought that within reason we shouldn't be expecting instruction ref technique when heading well off piste - that perhaps is something we should be learning with the likes of easiski on- and near-piste before heading off into the wide white yonder, with or without a guide (but preferably with).
From my chats with locals that have lived and breathed the mountains here in Les Arcs all their lives, that are top-notch skiers and fully qualified instructors (but not guides), as well as the likes of PGHM rescue personnel and pisteurs, there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY I would ever venture more than a short distance from a marked runs with the likes of a Ski Club rep that I barely knew, passing briefly through a resort, or any other gifted amateur (with a very few exceptions). It's just not worth the risk.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| PG wrote: |
| Nick Zotov, taking that a little further, I would have thought that within reason we shouldn't be expecting instruction ref technique when heading well off piste - that perhaps is something we should be learning with the likes of easiski on- and near-piste before heading off into the wide white yonder............. |
I quite agree. One incident I remember with easiski was being a bit phased with a steep gully which had been cut into a deep narrow rut by borders side-slipping. easiski talked me through it, and I learned how to cope. Not something a guide should have to be expecting.
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| PG wrote: |
| From my chats with locals that have lived and breathed the mountains here in Les Arcs all their lives, that are top-notch skiers and fully qualified instructors (but not guides), as well as the likes of PGHM rescue personnel and pisteurs, there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY I would ever venture more than a short distance from a marked runs with the likes of a Ski Club rep that I barely knew, passing briefly through a resort, or any other gifted amateur (with a very few exceptions). It's just not worth the risk. |
I think this highlights exactly what our expectations are from people we ski with. When I am with a guide, I am happy to defer to his knowledge regarding avalanche conditions. I wouldn't assume that a ski instructor has any better knowledge of avalanche safety etc than me. Obviously, on getting to know that instructor, it might become clear that (s)he is very clued up on all this and I can rely on them. Before that, I would be relying on my own judgement. I'll happily ski off piste with anyone who knows how to use a transceiver, but I won't be relying on them to judge the safety of it - I'll be making my own decisions. And this is the rub - I think some people probably assume that the SCGB rep has some qualification to lead them off-piste when really they don't.
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You know it makes sense.
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The mountains can be a hostile and dangerous environment particularly in winter but can we not get a bit precious sometimes? For many years clubs have gone to the mountains in winter and walked climbed and skied in them. We used to at university, yes accidents sometimes fatal can and do happen but do we really think that people should only go into this enviroment with a paid professional.
I and I suspect many snowheads ski off piste from time to time without professional guidance. I imagine the ski club and their insurers have done some kind of risk assessment and decided that within the limits they are setting themselves as a club the risk is not an extraordinary one, wiht the number of years they have been in operation I would be surprised if they do not have some kind of statistics to back it up. With the number of people going off piste I would have thought the idea that some of them have a rudimentary idea of avalanche assessment particularly if the emphasis is on knowing their own limitations is to be welcomed. 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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ummm
I know a friend who spent seasons in switzerland and seasons as an instructor trainer around the world still thought hiring a guide for off-piste in france was a must - paid the money to the person who was trained in the area, he considered he was not....
baby brother was training to be an alpine guide when killed ..... at the time the canadian ski patrol avalanche awareness course was the only world recognised course in avy awareness... (I have no idea of the ins and outs just that that is why he and a female friend training in the same field were wanting to do it.... that and some climbiing course that takes 2 people from each country each course - which is every 2 years... they both made the course selection- he was killed in canada and she fell down a crevasse in pakistan... so both missed it)..... for some reason all the others are not recognised in other countries (they would have needed a NZ one, european one, himalayan, north american or some such story)
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Poster: A snowHead
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T Bar, I agree- some snowheads appear highly risk averse when it comes to skiing off piste-if not 'led' by some one 'in charge'. I think this is what is cusing the worry about SCBG and off piste skiing.
You seem to have had some mountaineering experience as have I (but not much for years). In the UK at least most people climb with clubs / friends- not with guides- UK climbers in the alps also have a culture of not taking guides anywhere near as often as the Europeans. When I was a student the summer meet was always in Chamonix- we couldn't afford a proper place to camp- let alone a guide for climbing routes(but I was lucky enough to go on a short course with a guide sponsored by the BMC- British Mountaineering Council). Obviously all sorts of terrible thing happened...........This sort of background fosters a sense of self reliance- with is naturaly transfered to skiing- with friends/a group/SCGB etc. I suspect that many worried by the prospect of going off piste with 'unqualified' ski club reps don't get the concept of taking / sharing their own risks in this environment and instead want 'a leader' who will protect them. - Fine, this is no problem to me- but I am quite happy to do this- enjoy it and so does Nick Zotov and many others- I really am pleased that so many snowheads worry for our safety- but really guys / gals- you don't have to. If you don't like it don't do it- but try and grasp the concept.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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edsilva, having a sense of self-preservation doesn't equate to needing to be nannied around the mountains. Nor does listening to the experts and accepting their advice. There's plenty of risk inherent even when adequate precautions are taken.
Generally speaking, the 'real' experts - and I don't know where you stand in the knowledge/experience/skill league in this respect - believe that the above approach can lead to a lot of people placing their own and others' lives at risk unneccessarily.
You may be fine off piste with or without a ski club rep - I've no idea - but ask the locals, the piste security, the rescuers, the guides, and they will tell you to a man that the vast majority of occasional skiers venturing off piste have an overinflated sense of their own ability and inadequate knowledge of local conditions and terrain.
The reason behind the warnings and information provided on this site, and by the likes of davidof on www.pistehors.com is not to discourage those that can, but rather those can't - and/or shouldn't.
I reckon I've grasped the concept sufficiently, thanks  .
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Arno, I disagree with you here, there are instructors that I know in our village who have no formal qualification beyond their ski intructor's certificates who I would trust implicitly as regards mountain conditions, that's because I know they have grown up in and around the mountain since they were about 4 years old and know far more about local conditions than I could ever understand or any other visitor could.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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little tiger, ohh I am sorry to hear of that. Whenever it happened you have my sympathy. A very dear friend, a pisteur, in the wrong place at the wrong time, was lost to an avalanche. Horrible.
Surprisingly, given the back country use in North America, there seems to be a peculiar lack of co-ordination. The Canadians seem extremely well organised. I have no knowledge of UIAGM but I guess a high level of sophistication within their organisation. What's odd is that the US seems to have little overarching organisation at all. This based on experience of 2 years ago.
Going back towards the topic, whether SCGB reps are insured or not, if they aren't qualified high mountain guides, which I gather most are not, you probably aren't insured yourself to ski off piste with them. Most holiday insurance doesn't include off piste and that which does typically mandates a qualified guide, which an SCGB rep typically isn't. On your own head be it.
So wear a helmet.
(Sorry, falls off own seat laughing inappropriately)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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David Murdoch, anybody who skis off-piste without a guide, and does not have appropriate insurance cover is foolish. Caveat emptor. However, such insurance cover is readily available. The SCGB sell it. So do the BMC. So do my insurers, Snowcard.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| David Murdoch wrote: |
little tiger, ohh I am sorry to hear of that. Whenever it happened you have my sympathy. A very dear friend, a pisteur, in the wrong place at the wrong time, was lost to an avalanche. Horrible.
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no actually.... a helicopter crash got him.....
pretty classic when you consider he spent so much time climbing etc etc.... this was his only "safe" overseas trip.... just a course and a bit of skiing.....
he always insisted it was more dangerous travelling to the mountains(or river or sea) than actually doing the stuff.... although he was VERY safety conscious and saved a couple of his friends lives a few times by being VERY diligent with safety precautions...(and trusting gut instinct.... jumped sideways on one climb for no known reason... buddies followed because his instinct was known... a few seconds later a ton of ice crashed down past where they would have been)
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PG, strangely I am a very careful person !! All the off psite with SCGB reps has been very reasonable- and fun- have you any experience of tis? Skiing with reps or off piste with friends only - no guide/instructor?
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Other than near off piste I only ski off piste with people I know that have real local knowledge and expertise, or occasionally in pretty dense and reasonably shallow gradient woodland with friends after a fresh fall.
I'm sure it can be fun to ski with a rep, but the training system, length of experience on snow, and general level of expertise needed to become a rep in the first place doesn't inspire me with confidence. I wouldn't trust the judgment of someone who I'd met that morning to lead me into serious off piste areas, someone who may have only been in resort for a week or two, who'd done a week's training of sorts, and maybe had no more than twenty weeks on snow (if that?). Arno's got it spot on above. You either go with someone you know is qualified/experienced, or you rely on your own judgment.
Anyone following in the tracks of a ski club rep is consciously or unconsciously allowing him/herself to be led. I think that's inherently risky and could encourage people to take chances some wouldn't dream of taking on their own. Fair enough, as long as you're with a real expert.
Mentioned this before, but I watched a group of youngsters heading off into the Lanchettes couloir in Les Arcs, where people die on a regular basis, the other week. They were with someone who was leading - but who didn't look much like a guide to me. I was gobsmacked. Two of the girls could barely stand up on their skis. As I watched, in quick succession, trying to duckwalk up a slope they both fell over. Avalanche risk was level four at the time.
You may call that fostering a sense of self-reliance - to me, that's just sheer stupidity. These are the kind of people the posts here on snowHeads and elsewhere are targeting.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Arno wrote: |
| I wouldn't assume that a ski instructor has any better knowledge of avalanche safety etc than me. Obviously, on getting to know that instructor, it might become clear that (s)he is very clued up on all this and I can rely on them. |
| David@traxvax wrote: |
| there are instructors that I know in our village who have no formal qualification beyond their ski intructor's certificates who I would trust implicitly as regards mountain conditions, that's because I know they have grown up in and around the mountain since they were about 4 years old and know far more about local conditions than I could ever understand or any other visitor could. |
I don't think we do disagree. Those factors are precisely the sort of thing which might make me think I could trust an instructor's judgement
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Not sure where all this is going so here's my 2p worth...
(1) Save your SCGB annual fee and put it towards a UIAGM guide if you really want to explore the off piste possibilities.
(2) Avoid people who politely ski virtually the same tracks to preserve the powder for others (who really don't give a damn either way anyway). They'll bore the hell out of you over dinner while describing, in detail, how they saved £4.60 constructing their own conservatory and the relative flex patterns of decades of Rossignol constructions.
(3) Don't be one of those "all the gear, no idea" berks who thinks a bit of fancy electronics, probe and shovel will somehow protect against several thousand tons of fast moving snow, tree, rock etc that will happily tear a few limbs off. Best assume that avalanches are expert killers and ski shops, ski makers and mags that talk up ownership of all this stuff really need to deliver the knowledge to go with the gear. They can't, so I refer you to point (1).
(4) Why did the BBC News think it was a good idea to show that Slovenian pro emerging from a nice fluffy powder avalanche and not take the opportunity to show what normally happens? They made it look great fun frankly and it's no wonder more and more ill-prepared sliders are venturing into places they really have no place to be.
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FAQ
