Ski Club 2.0 Home
Snow Reports
FAQFAQ

Mail for help.Help!!

Log in to snowHeads to make it MUCH better! Registration's totally free, of course, and makes snowHeads easier to use and to understand, gives better searching, filtering etc. as well as access to 'members only' forums, discounts and deals that U don't even know exist as a 'guest' user. (btw. 50,000+ snowHeads already know all this, making snowHeads the biggest, most active community of snow-heads in the UK, so you'll be in good company)..... When you register, you get our free weekly(-ish) snow report by email. It's rather good and not made up by tourist offices (or people that love the tourist office and want to marry it either)... We don't share your email address with anyone and we never send out any of those cheesy 'message from our partners' emails either. Anyway, snowHeads really is MUCH better when you're logged in - not least because you get to post your own messages complaining about things that annoy you like perhaps this banner which, incidentally, disappears when you log in :-)
Username:-
 Password:
Remember me:
durr, I forgot...
Or: Register
(to be a proper snow-head, all official-like!)

Innsbruck flight delay - EC261

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Anyone been in this situation and could advise if we are wasting our time.

Our flight from Innsbruck to the UK was cancelled due to bad weather. This resulted in a 27 hour delay as the flight from the UK was diverted to Salzburg and took off empty back to the UK rather than wait for us to be bussed to Salzburg. We were accommodated in Innsbruck by the airline in a hotel. If it was true weather delay I could accept this but other flights were able to take off and land at Innsbruck during the time period in question suggesting that if the weather was unacceptable for our plane to land in, this was only for a very short time period. It appears EC261 does not apply if delay is due to bad weather as this is deemed outside of the control of the airline which I accept.

However, if the delay was due to bad weather then why were other flights able to take off and land at the time our flight failed to land? In this situation, is the airline obliged to mitigate the delay (ie by bussing us to the plane which would mean a delay of around 3- 4 hours) or is is acceptable to leave a plane load of people waiting for a replacement flight 27 hours later. EC261 is not applied in extraordinary circumstances but can the airline really argue that the whole 27 hour delay is weather related/extraordinary circumstances if they choose not to mitigate the delay?

Any advice gratefully received

Thanks
latest report     
 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I would say as they have a duty to get you to your destination, and they put you up in a hotel, then they are responsible. But what are you actually claiming for as I`m assuming they got you home?
snow report     
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@bastathecat, Innsbruck is a difficult airport to land at in good weather, and while some airlines (Austrian being the obvious example) will have additional equipment on the aircraft to allow instrument landings in low visibility and bad weather and will employ pilots who are qualified to continue, other carriers will use less capable aircraft and crews because they are cheaper and accept that 1% of their flights will be diverted because they are unable to get into the airport even though it remains open and other aircraft are using it.

Airlines also have differing procedures and limits, which is based on their experience, their budgeting, their timetabling, and their aircraft.

The compensation is not payable for bad weather - that's weather which stops your particular aircraft and crew from landing, not weather which closes the airport completely. A part loaded Fokker 50 might be able to land, where a fully loaded A319 would be marginal, and a 767 might be a definite no. However, it would be a conscious choice on the part of the airline to use a 767 on a route into an airport in a region where it frequently snows.

Having said that, see https://www.bottonline.co.uk/flight-delay-compensation/claim-guides/flight-compensation-bad-weather and especially their comment about snow in a ski resort area. The weather must be exceptional to be used as an excuse, and snow at Innsbruck is not exactly unexpected. Also, the weather affected a different flight from yours, so I would say that compensation is claimable. It costs you nothing to apply - typically through the carrier's website. Give it a go, and don't pay an agent to do it for you, as they'll take at least 20% for filling in the same form.

I am not an expert, but I have claimed from Ryanair and Easyjet successfully in the past.
latest report     
 You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
jafa wrote:
I would say as they have a duty to get you to your destination, and they put you up in a hotel, then they are responsible. But what are you actually claiming for as I`m assuming they got you home?


It's the compensation payable for delays under EU law
snow report     
 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Trying to make sense of this.

Plane from UK was supposed to land in Innsbruck - turn around & fly back to UK
Because plane could not land at Innsbruck, it diverted to Salzburg & in turn your flight was cancelled?

Quote:
but other flights were able to take off and land at Innsbruck during the time period in question

What was this time period?
Are you saying the time flight into Innsbruck other planes was landing & flights out that other planes was landing?

Where was you flying to?
ski holidays     
 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
Thanks for all the replies.

Yes other planes were landing (and taking off but I think it is landing at Innsbruck that is the big issue) - one even landed a few mins after we had watched our incoming flight divert to Salzburg on flight radar. We were sat in departures watching other planes take off and land.

Our flight was cancelled because the plane went to Salzburg and took off empty back to the UK rather than wait for us to be bussed to Salzburg. That is the crux of my query really - is it reasonable for the airline to do this and subject us to a 27 hour delay or should they try to mitigate our delay by bussing us to the plane which would result in a much shorter delay.
snow report     
 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@bastathecat, flight delay compensation is not payable in cases of adverse weather.

I had a flight cancelled a few years ago from Manchester. There was no actual snow at Manchester airport and some flights were operating. However many staff had not made it in to work due to snow, therefore several flights were cancelled.

I tried to apply for compensation but was categorically told that the cancellation was weather-related, so my claim was not successful.
ski holidays     
 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
If you are talking about the beginning of January it was all complete chaos. Our friends flight was diverted from Innsbruck to Salzburg. There was allegedly no bus to transfer them to Soelden and after hanging around for a bit whilst the rep talk was of overnighting in Salzburg, my friend wandered around and found a half empty hus (crystal, same company). He spoke to the driver who said he'd been hanging around for hours and needed to do the journey to Soelden - friends blaggeed their way onto it and the bus left half empty. They did arrive at their hotel at 5am should have been 7om the previous day. People booked into the same hotel arrived nearly 24 hours later having been put up overnight in Salzburg,, driven back to Salzburg airport, and then bussed from there.
Incompetence by Crystal? Innsbruck closed about 10am, long before most of those UK flights had departed.
ski holidays     
 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Quote:

Our flight was cancelled because the plane went to Salzburg and took off empty back to the UK rather than wait for us to be bussed to Salzburg.


So the delay was due to the preceding sector (and thus the plane being out of position). Check the rules around EC261 - IIRC any cause linked to a preceding sector is not applicable to your flight and can't be used by the airline as grounds to refuse compensation. If the airport was open and flights arriving/departing then you should get compensation.
latest report     
 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
There are "ambulance chasing " companies who will pursue your claim, they of course take a cut. As they take a cut, one would assume they will push hard for a payout

Two things that will help your claim along

1 did you get an email from airline advising of the delay, ie an auto email when you landed
2 Contact your Airline reg authority, they collate stats on flight landings

might be some relevant info here

https://www.boards.ie/search/submit/?forum=37&subforums=1&sort=newest&date_to=&date_from=&query=261
snow report     
 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
What dates & destination are you talking about?
I would not be surprised if the Salzburg flight didnt leave there empty, but instead replaced a delayed plane.
Cheaper to put a 1/2 full flight up in a hotel in innsbruck than a full one in salzburg Toofy Grin
ski holidays     
 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
I suspect the OP is talking about Sunday 3rd February just gone. I was at Innsbruck airport sunday morning and at least 3 inbound flights from the UK were initially showing on the arrivals board as delayed with no estimated time of arrival. Our flight from Gatwick was due in around this time and actually landed 20 minutes early. We then saw one flight had been diverted (didnt know where to at the time) and then saw another flight status as being diverted (again didnt know where to). Tannoy announcement then asked all passengers for a certain flight (think it was to Heathrow on BA) to go to somewhere in the airport as they were being bussed to Munich for their return flight. I think possibly that the flight the OP is talking about was the easyjet flight from Bristol that was diverted to Salzburg. I dont know what happeend with the third delayed flight and wether it was also diverted or finally landed

I can confirm that other planes did land during this time. Our BA inbound from gatwick was one. A TUI or Thomas cook (cant remember exactly which) had also landed. Both these flights managed to depart back to the UK near enough on time.
ski holidays     
 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
yes.. very weird.
https://www.airportia.com/austria/innsbruck-airport/arrivals/20190203/0000/2359

Looking at times other planes landed, it could not have been fog or temporary adverse weather.
Prob worth a go with a no-win, no-fee company if your getting fobbed off.
ski holidays     
 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
So far only success I've had with airlines is to lodge the complaint, make clear other flights arriving and departing from airport, basically make allegation that weather is being used to try and duck out of their obligations under the law.

When they turn it down, take it to CEDR, if the airline is aligned, they are about the only people with some common sense and the airlines just give in when they decide it isn't reasonable for them not to pay out. Total time from CEDR decision to money in the account was a week. Total time chasing airline customer services and utter nonsense 9 weeks.

If you don't like the outcome from CEDR you are not bound by their decision so can then escalate to small claims to get the payout, as soon as the small claims demand arrives with airline you'll probably get your cash. But CEDR very easy to raise claim once airline rejects your claim or takes more than 8 weeks to resolve.
ski holidays     
 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Pretty sure @mgrolf is right above that the plane not getting into your airport is not in itself a weather delay to your flight, it is considered a positioning problem and so technically within the airlines control.

Also @queenie pretty please just because the airline 'told' you something don't believe it. Getting staff to the airport to man a flight sounds very much like something 'within the airlines control' and so not an exception to the compensation rules.
snow conditions     
 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@midgetbiker, I tried several claims handlers too. All said no.
snow report     
 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@queenie pretty please, Ah, ok, if they turned you down then it's probably right.
snow conditions     
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
small claims court
ski holidays     
 You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
I think Im getting confused here. By compensation, you mean other then the airlines paying for hotels, meals, and getting you home after the cancellation?
latest report     
 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@jafa, yes.. there is an EU regulation that means airlines have to pay out up to €600 if the delay was within their control. Google it
latest report     
 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
Thanks all. Yes it was Innsbruck to Bristol on the 3rd Feb - actually ended up back in Bristol 27 hours after schedule so a pretty long delay. This came after having landed at Salzburg on 27th Jan instead of Innsbruck (again due to 'bad weather' but other flights able to land at Innsbruck during the time in question). We were bussed from Salzburg to Innsbruck on 27th Jan and if the airline had done this in reverse on 3rd Feb our delay would have been significantly less. This is what has made me question the whole situation. A 27 hour delay meant missing a day of work/school which is not insignificant. I will attempt to claim and see what the response is.
latest report     
 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/oe-ivk
https://www.radarbox24.com/data/registration/oe-ivk#1188482970

Can see why the plane would not wait for you to bussed in.
As after the Austria back to Bristol leg it was used from BRS to Inverness & back & then to Madrid & back...

Interestingly it left BRS 40mins late. So could have been weather related. missed its slot, etc.

how full was the plane btw? When I flew that route there was only about 20 people on the plane.
latest report     
 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
We had the same at innsbruck in early Jan. Sat there whilst planes of the same type and from the same company came and left whilst our incoming plane aborted to Munich. Then arrived back empty later on.

So I'll be claiming for the delay given it was their pilots lack of skill that caused the delay.
snow conditions     
 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Different airlines have different safety tolerances, apparently. The flight you had cancelled was the one we came out on. It almost landed then took off again.
latest report     
 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
And yet the same airline landed and departed their planes of the same type just before and after!
snow report     
 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
I got the EU261 compensation after a 9hr delay on a ski flight at Grenoble in 2013. Hard to work out what actually happened, but I think they sent a different group of passengers home on what was supposed to be our plane, but made us wait for the delayed one to come in. Probably because there were more of them than us. The reason I think this is what happened as some that were due to fly with us had kids and they were given the few empty seats on the earlier flight. I think it was a technical issue with the plane, which is deemed within the airline's control. I seem to remember waiting for a landmark ruling coming through to decide this.

We got a soggy cheese roll & a drink to last us through, good job there is a hypermarket in walking distance of the airport!!

The €200 nearly paid for my liftpass though, so that was handy.


Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Sat 9-02-19 17:14; edited 1 time in total
ski holidays     
 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Quote:

I'll be claiming for the delay given it was their pilots lack of skill that caused the delay

It's a legitimate professional judgement. Innsbruck - like Chambery - is one of those airports. In booking, you have to weigh convenience against the risk of delay.
latest report     
 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
If it was reasonably expectable that flights to Innsbruck would be delayed they'd need to make that clear at the point of booking. Customers can't be expected to understand pilot skills and meteorology.

Instead, customers have a right to expect the service they pay for or recieve compensation in lieu.

Hence why the airlines do pay out under the rules on delays to ski focused airports, as per the court case linked above.
snow report     
 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
erica2004 wrote:
Different airlines have different safety tolerances, apparently. The flight you had cancelled was the one we came out on. It almost landed then took off again.


That sounds like the pilot messed up the approach and got the collywobbles...if the conditions were outside of stated tolerances and truly unsafe to land, surely he wouldn't have even attempted it! Puzzled
snow report     
 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@luigi, who knows? That was the rubbish they told us when we got off in Salzburg. It could well be that he changed his mind because he might have had a longer wait in Innsbruck than he would’ve liked. Grounded planes aren’t earners.
ski holidays     
 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Quote:

If it was reasonably expectable that flights to Innsbruck would be delayed they'd need to make that clear at the point of booking

Any flight can be delayed - but airlines are subject to EU rules about compensation. Might be different in future.....

I've been on a plane which aborted a landing into Innsbruck - we were almost on the ground when the pilot poured power on and went round again. A scary moment but we did land successfully the second time round. AFAIK that's not an unusual procedure in certain conditions, especially gusty side winds. And on the return flight from that same holiday we were delayed at Innsbruck for many hours - there were lots of delayed flights, nowhere for people to sit, huge queues for the rapidly disappearing food and drink (for which we were given vouchers). It happens and is more likely at some airports than others.
snow conditions     
 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I'm pretty well travelled and I genuinely did not know when booking my family onto Innsbruck flights that there is a fair chance in winter that you will be delayed or diverted.

When we did get on the pilot practically grovelled an apology as if he'd been briefed to persuade us not to pursue the compensation
latest report     
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Csb123 wrote:
I'm pretty well travelled and I genuinely did not know when booking my family onto Innsbruck flights that there is a fair chance in winter that you will be delayed or diverted.

When we did get on the pilot practically grovelled an apology as if he'd been briefed to persuade us not to pursue the compensation


I'm not sure there really is a 'fair chance' of flights being delayed or diverted at INN. According to this the overall delay rate is 3.66% of flights - compared to 4.58% at Salzburg and 4.38% at Chambéry.

That does depend who you are flying with though. Apparently a whopping 21.15% of Thomas Cook flights into INN were (2015) delayed, which seems crazy! Apparently they now use a new navigation system which can/should have drastically reduced that rate.
snow report     
 You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
After three holidays involving flights to Innsbruck where two of them have involved our inward flight being diverted I would seriously hesitate before booking again!

First one was due to huge amounts of snow at Innsbruck which was known about so the flight was arranged to go to Friedrichshaven (not that we were told before we got on the flight), but at least it meant that the buses and returning passengers were in the correct place. Second one was due to landing issues: pilot tried twice then we were diverted to Salzburg. That meant a long delay as returning passengers and coaches had to be brought to us.

You have my sympathy.
snow conditions     
 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Both approsch & landings at Innsbruck & Chambery are on youtube.

Worth watching to understand the decision making pilots have to go through.

I do believe a lot can be ‘faked’ for operational reasons & always worth fighting/contesting. Even if you only end up with an offer of £50
ski holidays     
 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
Quote:

That does depend who you are flying with though.

I think something similar happens at Chambery - perhaps because not all pilots have the certification necessary for landing in certain conditions. I have had mostly good experiences in and out of Chambery but that's because I no longer fly there on Saturdays!! On one occasion I was driving out of the free carpark within about six minutes of the plane touching down. In heavy rain which turned to snow as I drove up the mountain! On a Thursday. But it's not always like that - we read some horror stories of transfer day delays, huge queues for security, etc.
ski holidays     
 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Just to update - Airline said no to EC261 compensation as "weather related" so we took it to a claims handler (Bott online) and received the compensation due. Bott did take a cut but it was hassle free and in our opinion worth it.

Thanks again for all the useful advice further up the thread.
ski holidays     
 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Not commenting on this case. But there are 3 elements to whether an aircraft can make an approach"

1. The landing aids on the ground at the airport and the relevant certification to allow approaches to specific minima.

2. The equipment that is fitted to the aircraft you are flying in and the validity of its certification time wise.

3. The captain's qualifications to fly in those conditions with the equipment he is given and the validity of that qual.

So as airlines don't publicise what they are certified to under points 2 and 3 the general public is a bit in the dark at the booking stage. Caveat emptor.

For instance most snowHeads are aware of Chambery, Innsbruck and Sion as airports subject to the vagaries of the weather, are they aware that Lyon is better than Grenoble in foggy conditions? There is no.public info as to whether some airlines or particular aircraft are better than others. That is commercially sensitive and generally not in the public domain.

In sum, it's a minefield.
snow conditions     
 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
@bastathecat, well done. Similar happened to us. Other airlines taking off and landing at Innsbruck but not us! We also applied for compensation but after waiting months for a reply we were turned down flat. They said that it's the individual pilot's decision to land or not and what other airlines did was irrelevant. Didn't bother taking it further but we were not sorry when, a few months later, the airline, Monarch, went bust Twisted Evil .

Amusingly, on one flight with a well-known tour operator, we had just boarded the plane when the cabin crew announced that although it was scheduled to fly to Innsbruck it was now flying to Salzburg because of bad weather at Innsbruck. We all laughed as we had already been told by the check in person that the original pilot had called in sick and they didn't have any one available with the right qualification to land at Innsbruck.
ski holidays     
 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
We had a similar situation at Lleida in January, due to wind, in the end we were lucky and our plane did land there, but we were told it would be the captains decision whether or not he felt it was safe to land.
ski holidays     



Terms and conditions  Privacy Policy