Non political, practical advice for skiers on Brexit.

A snowHead

@queenie pretty please, Ah, awkward. Sorry, I didn't realise. Should be possible with a chain of birth/death/marriage certificates though. British ones are largely searchable online, but I have no idea about Irish records. We currently have a load of paperwork in with the Home Office, but unfortunately fear they may have misplaced it in Dept 101 (seriously!) Confused

A snowHead

just received this from Aviva (it could be clearer to say "if you are planning on driving the car you have insured with us" rather than "planning on driving"

"Hi Christine,
Whilst uncertainty remains on whether the UK leaves the European Union without a Withdrawal Agreement (a 'no-deal Brexit') in the coming weeks, if they do, UK motor insurance customers driving in the European Economic Area, Andorra, Serbia, and Switzerland will need physical proof of motor insurance when they travel. This is called a Green Card.

We have now developed a simple process for you to obtain a Green Card if you are planning on driving in the European Union after a potential 'no-deal Brexit'. We recommend requesting your Green Card up to 4 weeks before you travel.

We will not charge you for this Green Card and it can be obtained by clicking the button below.

Please be aware that there is no digital version available, a physical Green Card is the only valid format.

Your request will be processed within 24 hours of receipt and sent to you in the post the next working day, first class.

Your current motor insurance will continue to provide the legal minimum motor insurance (third party cover only) for travel to EEA countries. You will not need to purchase additional third-party motor insurance policy cover when driving there with a UK-registered vehicle."

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

The Home Office have been in touch this morning by email. Please can we send all the documents again plus some others they didn't mention as they appear to have misplaced them rolling eyes

How they have managed to misplace an email penned by someone with a unique name I cannot fathom. Donkeys, the lot of them.

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am I correct in understanding?

I will not need the green card to rent a car, just the relevant IDP

Green card needed if driving UK registered car in relevant EEA and associated countries

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@LittleBullet, correct.

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thanks @holidayloverxx, & @rob@rar,

After all it is free

Anyone blagged their way around Schengen (internally) on a driving licence only? The other one has decided to travel to Germany for a period that covers 12th April Shocked

As residency permits cannot even be applied for until the following Monday morning, there is potential for confusion at the weekend. I wouldn't be too bothered if he was flying back into Austria (they don't normally check at all), but he'll be on the Munich train which is frequented by German border guards. No ID card, and a British passport might involve hassle. Will they accept an Austrian driving license as ID?

@Scarlet, I think he would need to use an Austrian ID card, rather than just a driving licence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_identity_card

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@thelem, You need to be an Austrian citizen to get one of those.

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@Scarlet, You're not seriously suggesting German guards on a train from Munich to Austria are going to get funny with British Passport holders in mid-April? Who also hold an Austrian driving Licence? Reading fellow Snowheads travel worries..sometimes I feel like I've been time-warped to 1939 Laughing

I've never blagged it round Schengen with just a Licence. I'm off to Holland via Calais, in the car on the 14th and am planning on changing absolutely nothing at all. I'll keep you posted on how I get on. With an email from Leiden prison.

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@Scarlet, this is the section on the gov.uk website that I was alerted to by email:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/living-in-austria#eu-exit-what-you-should-do

Specifically under the section 'Passports and travel', the following paragraph:

If you are a UK national resident in Austria and the UK leaves the EU without a deal, the Austrian Government strongly advise that you start your application for new residency documents before you travel outside the country. After you apply, you will be issued with an A4 application certificate which you can show as proof of residence when re-entering Austria. These application certificates will only be issued from the day the UK leaves the EU without a deal.

@queenie pretty please, Yeah, it seems they haven't really considered the situation where someone travels before the exit date but returns after, and thus is unable to apply for residency documents in the timeframe. For the EoSB that we were discussing yesterday, I have a few days to get to the office so that should be ok.

I'm not expecting problems, but you never know if you're going to encounter someone who wants to liven up their Sunday afternoon. Recent experiences ^ with their counterparts in the Home Office don't fill me with confidence Confused

You know it makes sense.

Guys, surely there will be a right of visa-free entry for 90 days in the event of no-deal. The EU have already issued advice on this. So as long as you go back to Austria within 90 days of 12 April and apply for your paperwork everything will be fine.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

@jedster, Your insurance policy seems remarkably cheap 4 people with an annual cost of £20/person or have i misunderstood?

A snowHead

A snowHead

@Bodeswell, That is how you think it ought to work. It bears little resemblance to reality. The rules are different for residents and visitors, and a 90 day visa is no good to any of us. Not to mention that it would be applied when crossing an external Schengen border, which we are not doing.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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@Bodeswell, what we want to avoid is returning to Austria to have our British passports stamped with a 90-day tourist permit. In order to avoid this we have to provide proof of legal residency, the circumstances of which change on the 12th April in the event of a no deal Brexit.

The visa-free entry to which you refer is for a 90-day tourist permit. We are not tourists and we certainly do not want any documentation such as a stamp on the passport which suggests that we are. Freedom of movement ends with a no deal Brexit. Trying to prove that we are already legally resident with a stamp on our passports which says otherwise could be a big problem.

Don't shoot the messenger, this is guidance issued by the Austrian government. We're not taking it lightly because it needs to be taken seriously.

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https://www.gov.uk/visit-europe-brexit

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@Scarlet, thanks, I thought they were still stuck on the visa-free proposal by Spain pushing on the Gibralter issue. Last I saw they were trying to remove the influence of the UK MEP who was reporting on the case. Looks like they did achieve that, which unlocked the issue.

I appreciate there is a huge difference between UK residents of the EU and UK visitors to the EU.

After all it is free

Probably, but your passport will be stamped with a Schengen entry date and logged in the Schengen computer system, and the 90 days (in 180) starts ticking. Whether or not that flags up the next time you go thru a Schengen border is tbd. If I had to travel in that intermediate time frame, and got stamped as a visitor, and then got the residence permit, then for sure, 100% I would be taking a weekend break somewhere outside Schengen just to ensure I have an exit stamp to close any entry stamp, and then making absolutely sure I have the residence permit on re-entry.
Dunno about Austria, but for Germany you need the permit for *any* kind of Brexit. Deal or No Deal. 3 months grace to have the application in. Permanent grace from receipt of application until you get the actual permission. And wallet €147 lighter per person.

@queenie pretty please, Yes, but you say that there are forms that Austria will issue if and when there is a no-deal so that Brits can apply for residence permits. ]

Surely if you are legally working there now any post Brexit stamp will not affect any of your previous Austrian paperwork, but will enable you to enter Austria go sort it out. Your passport doesn't say how long you've lived and worked in Austria, they never stamp anything under current rules. The Austrian tax office will have that info.

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Oh dear

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@Hells Bells, That's going to scupper my EoSB shopping list for Dave Confused

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Commentary from Steve Peers, Professor of EU Law at Essex University, on the agreement yesterday on visa free travel to the EU (visitors not residents).

http://eulawanalysis.blogspot.com/2019/04/travelling-to-eu-after-brexit-schengen.html

@Scarlet, ruins my Eurotunnel picnics too.

You know it makes sense.

@Bodeswell, if there is a no deal Brexit, then we have 6 months to apply for new residence permits. However if we leave the country before applying and obtaining proof of application, then we have no proof that we have a legal right to return as residents. That's the Austrian government's advice to us, essentially DO NOT leave Austria before applying for legal residency status.

The status we currently have as EU citizens becomes null and void as soon as we cease to be EU citizens.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

@queenie pretty please, That makes very little sense, so I can understand why you're concerned.

Presumably in order to get this permit in the first place you have to prove a history of tax/residency in the country going back a few years? Are they saying you will lose this on 12 April because you went on holiday? Seems extreme but maybe their Home Office is even worse than ours, it's possible. Can you not apply for residency using the existing system, do you have to wait for a Brexit version? There must some way you can prove you are currently in Austria legally?

A snowHead

Take a day off work to sit in the town hall, pay the full fee and/or then be told to come back another day when they know what teh **** is happening?
Sure! I'm sending my invoice to Treeza anyway for my €147 plus total number of man-hours at my contract rate for every hour I spend in the town hall, seeing that it was her choice to leave every single institution, not just EU.

But this thread is now becoming political rather than practical. Germany site says to stay in Germany and continue working, and it's 3 months plus any extra duration that is their fault, but once you have that receipt, you're good to go.

A snowHead

@Bodeswell, You can't apply until the UK leaves the EU, as we are legal residents under FoM rules until that point. Realistically, there will be a gap if the exit date is 12th April, as the relevant offices will be closed over the weekend. The documents we currently hold that prove our status will lapse on this date. In reality, there may be a bit of leeway, but relying on blagging is a very uncertain way of doing things.

The person who is travelling and to whom I refer, is well versed in the British tradition of blagging, and has few reservations about relying on it to determine his status rolling eyes

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@andy, It's definitely practical advice! I knew about the 6 month grace period to apply, so it hadn't occurred to me that I might need to do it before heading off to the EoSB (depending on what occurs in the next week, obv).

Fully expecting to attend the office only to be sent away till the next day/sent somewhere else that has already closed. That's how efficiency happens, right? rolling eyes

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@Bodeswell, it makes perfect sense.

At the moment UK citizens can legally live and work in Austria as EU citizens. After Brexit we become third country immigrants under a completely different set of rules. Normally there is a points system for such immigrants, but Austria has agreed to waive this for British citizens already resident here. However our current paperwork becomes null and void. We have six months from the date of Brexit to apply for new residency permits. This is done at our regional government office, where we are already registered as EU citizens up to the date of Brexit.

Random passport officials on any given border do not have access to our previous registration records. Therefore if we leave Austria after Brexit date, we need to have proof of our legal residency status here in order to not be treated as tourists and given a 90-day stamp in our passports. Previous paperwork stating that we formerly had residence as EU citizens is null and void.

The 90-day stamp in our passports would then become more recent than our previous status which is no longer valid. So after 90-days we would be expected to return to the UK. It's nothing to do with tax records, it's to do with legal immigration status.

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@Scarlet, at least EOSB and all travel there from Innsbruck is fully within Schengen zone, so shouldn't be an issue (unless you've done something daft like book flights via London).

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@andy, nope, driving through Switzerland on local plates, so not expecting any problems beyond buying a vignette. It’s more my bf who has just decided to travel to Germany across the 12th April, crossing the border on the often checked Munich to Innsbruck train. If the date moves again, the problem goes away. Ditto if there’s a deal. Probably.

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@queenie pretty please, sorry, I don’t buy that. Your current paperwork becomes null and void? Doubt it. You say Austria has decided to waive it for British Citizens. Going on holiday to France won’t change that.

After all it is free

@Bodeswell, you don't have to buy it. Current paperwork becomes null and void because we cease to be EU citizens. What part of that are you struggling to understand? Anyway, if you're not an expat, then this surely doesn't concern you.

@Scarlet, I understand why you're worried, and that getting a stamp coming back into Austria could end up being a right PIA to sort out... but ultimately, I think it would get sorted, he would be able to prove he was already there pre-Brexit. But really I think he'd be incredibly unlucky to even have his passport checked - we've never been stopped on any of the local borders (which we cross frequently) or going east into Austria. There are border guards about, and they sometimes swing into action - but are clearly looking for certain profiles.

If does go mental at the borders after the 12th (12th seems more unlikely this morning anyway) tell him to get on a train to Basel and we'll sneak him back over the border in a Swiss car/hand him back to you at the EoSB Happy

.

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@Gämsbock, I agree. Traveling outside of Schengen is where it could become a problem. I'm supposed to be flying to the UK from Munich (Salzburg airport is closed for a month) on 2nd May. If no deal happens, and I am unable to get the correct paperwork, then I'll simply forfeit the flights.

Help!!

Non political, practical advice for skiers on Brexit.

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